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Author
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Topic: Gemini quality reproductions
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ddrwilli
Member Posts: 62
From: Pataskala, Ohio
Registered: Nov 2005
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posted 01-14-2007 07:24 PM
   
Hi all! I have been collecting space patches for 35+ years. However, I am a very infrequent visitor to these forums. As a result, I'm late in picking up on this thread.I am also excited about reproductions of the Gemini crew patches as worn on their suits. I'm glad to see that much effort has gone into researching the original designs, even down to the direction of the stitching. But what about color? As any photographer knows, differences in lighting and image processing (film or digital) can change the original colors and/or shades. So, my question is: What is being done to maintain color fidelity to the original patches? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42983
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 01-14-2007 08:25 PM
For this project to move forward, we are in need of someone with artistic skills who can create detailed computer-drawn patterns that includes details such as stitching direction, thread width, color (i.e. Pantone values). Any volunteers? Referrals? I would suggest limiting production to AB Emblem, as they would insure that these replica patterns are not abused, mistakenly or otherwise. It might be easier to proceed patch by patch in succession rather than as a set. I would suggest beginning with Gemini 5 -- as it is both the first flight patch and also one of the more complicated, if the consensus is to recreate the cloth covering over "8 Day or Bust". I would suggest setting a target order date of March 1, which means we need the artwork, and confirmed orders by then. If both can be delivered before then to AB Emblem, all the better. |
JGJ
Member Posts: 35
From: USA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 03-04-2007 04:29 PM
I do not have the skills of an artist, but I would like to see the finished product... |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 03-05-2007 03:57 AM
Well, as the infux of volunteers seems to be rather modest.  I thought I'd give this request a go. The thing is, I don't have enough computer skills to produce drawings. However, the patches I produced through Spaceview were done based on hand-drawn pictures, detailed descriptions and indications of specific yarns to be used, based on samples, not Pantone colors which really have little to do with embroidery.In this regard, producing the patch through the manufacturer I have been working with for a decade, could be a viable alternative to AB, I think. I am busy finishing a course right now, but will have more time towards the end of the month. So, Robert, all others, any opinions? |
justin13
Member Posts: 50
From: Richmond, VA, U.S.A.
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 03-20-2007 09:01 AM
With no computer artists stepping forward, I think Luc's offer sounds reasonable. He's had success with hand-drawn designs, and Spaceview seems to do a great job with Russian patches. I can't say how this project woudl compare, but prices could be reasonable, as their Soyuz patches produced in "small quantities" are sold for $8 each. |
KSCartist
Member Posts: 2896
From: Titusville, FL USA
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 03-20-2007 11:48 AM
Luc, I think you are very generous to volunteer your services for this project. With your talent and abilities I am confident you would create accurate replicas.Since I have minimal computer graphics experience, my assistance would be minimal but if I can help you in any way, let me know. |
KAPTEC
Member Posts: 578
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted 03-20-2007 01:41 PM
Thank you so much, Luc, for your offer. Also, If I can help in anything, I'm at your absolute disposition. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 03-20-2007 03:45 PM
Luc, thanks for stepping forward and volunteering! Do you have good illustrations or photos of the flown patch designs from which to work with? If not, perhaps some of our resident patch experts could offer up the best hi-res photos they have of the patches that were flown on the spacesuits. (I don't have such illustrations or else I'd help.)Good luck! |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 03-22-2007 03:16 PM
Thanks for the compliments guys! Let's get things started...Bill Hunt: can I take you up on your offer of providing hi-res scans of the Gemini 3, 7, 9, 10, 11 and 12 patches? It would be very helpful if you could include a ruler in the scans, so that I can determine the exact dimensions. That's what I would need on the remaining patches too. Anyone? I would greatly appreciate your scans Bill, as I do not have a single high-quality picture of Gemini 7 yet. Anyone else who might have high-res pics is encouraged to send them in as well to me at l.van.den.abeelen@chello.nl, the more pics there are, the better the reproductions will turn out. The Gemini 5 patch is perhaps the most challenging to reproduce. How is it made up? It looks like a piece of white felt with a brighter white textile sewn onto it. But at what point? Is is at the brown border? And what causes the wrinkly effect? Is the top piece of textile too big? And do we want to this reproduce effect? Or do we go for the look the patch had while still on the suits? Has anyone ever seen a pic of an original Gemini 5 without the covering sewn-on piece of cloth? How do we know for sure the '8 days or bust' is really underneath? The other patches which will be a challenge are Gemini 9 and 10. They are the only ones displaying full embroidery and have an irregular stitching pattern in their backgrounds. That aspect might be difficult to reproduce on modern machines. I will find out is my regular manufacturer is able to to this. If not, I will look elsewhere. If we do select my regular supplier, I could send Bill my card with samples of yarns. As you own a number of originals, you could select the colours that best match the original yarns. What about the backs of the patches? No pictures showing that in my collection. Do we want cloth or plastic? I am confident we will be able to pool enough photo's/drawings to enable good reproductions to be made. The way I envisage the process is: upon selection of a manufacturer, I would need firm orders from all who would like a set, including full payment. At that point, we could go ahead and have prototypes made. I would post high-res scans of those here for everyone to check. After adaptations, a second set of prototypes should be produced and checked before we give the go-ahead for the full run. Judging by the responses here, I think 50 sets should cover our requirements. That might turn out to be the minimum anyway. Looking forward to your assistance! Lets create some nice Christmas presents for space patch buffs! |
Bill Hunt
Member Posts: 399
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 03-22-2007 04:59 PM
Sure. I'll try to get them to you this weekend. |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 04-04-2007 04:34 AM
Bill, others: could I ask fore some feedback on my recent post? I am still very enthusiastic about realizing this project, but I do need all your assistance! Let's go! |
Bill Hunt
Member Posts: 399
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-04-2007 12:15 PM
Luc, check your e-mail! |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 04-04-2007 01:39 PM
That's l.van.den.abeelen@chello.nl, for anyone with good scans of Gemini originals, too! |
Bill Hunt
Member Posts: 399
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-04-2007 01:55 PM
Okay, Luc now has high-rez scans of my Gemini 3 (Molly Brown), Gemini 7 (names version), Gemini 9 (names version), Gemini 10, Gemini 11 and Gemini 12 patches.Anyone have the rest available? |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 04-05-2007 02:53 AM
Thanks a million Bill, great scans!What I could really use is a close-up photo or scan of a (no-names) Gemini 7, as the 'group picture' of Gemini patches that Gene provided is the only one I have. This picture, combined with Bill's scans, will yield the sizes of all patches; I would love additional data/pics on Gemini 5 and 7 though. |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 04-09-2007 03:14 AM
I'm receiving very good stuff! I can definately work out the exact sizes of the patches, still trying to work out how to proceed with Gemini 5, though.Dick Lattimer in his 'All We Did Was Fly To The Moon' has something nice on page 24: the well-known Gemini 5 patch closeup by NASA and a photo of a Gemini 5 showing the '8 days or bust' motto and also a picture of Conrad with the patch clearly visible. It really looks like the patch is the same thing Conrad's wearing, but do we know for sure? Is Lattimer still alive? If so, anyone have contact details? Or does anyone where the motto-patch picture comes from? Anyone know the photo number of Conrad's pic? |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 04-12-2007 02:30 AM
Bill, a question about the Molly Brown patch: the heatshield seems to be done in a silvery yarn. Is this correct or is it the way the light reflects off the yarn that is stitched in a different direction? |
astroborg
Member Posts: 200
From: Woodbridge, VA, USA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-12-2007 08:25 AM
Does it help to look at the images of patches in the book "LIFE in Space" put out by LIFE sometime around 1984? |
KSCartist
Member Posts: 2896
From: Titusville, FL USA
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 04-12-2007 10:35 AM
Maybe Ed H has a hi-res image of John Young when he arrived for TCDT or launch for STS-1. I remember seeing a Molly Brown patch on the shoulder of his flight suit. |
Bill Hunt
Member Posts: 399
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-12-2007 12:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by lucspace:
Is this correct or is it the way the light reflects off the yarn that is stitched in a different direction?
Yes, the heat shield and the nose cap area are stitched in a vertical direction different from the stitching on the rest of the patch, but they're also a slightly silvery-colored thread. |
Bill Hunt
Member Posts: 399
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-12-2007 12:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by astroborg:
Does it help to look at the images of patches in the book "LIFE in Space" put out by LIFE sometime around 1984?
I haven't seen these images. Are they available online? |
Jacques van Oene
Member Posts: 861
From: Houten, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 04-12-2007 03:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Hunt:
I haven't seen these images. Are they available online?
The images in the book are not better then Luc already have... |
Bill Hunt
Member Posts: 399
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-12-2007 03:32 PM
That's what I figured. Luc, can you e-mail me some of the other ones you've received? I'd love to see them. |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 04-17-2007 02:18 PM
I'm getting very usefull stuff guys!Still searching the web though for good Gemini photography. This seller on eBay has some great pictures. Is there an online equivalent to apolloarchive.com that covers Gemini? |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 05-16-2007 04:03 AM
Just a quick word: yes, the project is still very much alive. I've collected very useful material and I'll be putting a page on the Gemini Patch Collection on my website soon, so everyone can see what I have and what I am planning to do.Watch this space! |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 05-16-2007 10:13 AM
Thanks for the update! I look forward to seeing what you've collected. |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 05-23-2007 01:54 PM
I've put up the first two pages of 13 that should provide an overview of what will hopefully become the Gemini Patch Collection.As I am no HTML wizard yet, it's an infant site, so bear with me till I fix legible links and downloadable hi-res versions of the photos. Meanwhile, let me know what you think! |
Harald Kraenzel
Member Posts: 304
From: Dinslaken,Germany
Registered: Nov 2005
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posted 05-24-2007 01:49 AM
Great work, Luc.It's always good to put those things into one hand to have it well organized. And thanks to all contributors as this sums up to a great step forward into the right direction. |
E2M Lem Man
Member Posts: 846
From: Los Angeles CA. USA
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 05-24-2007 02:24 PM
Sorry that I haven't kept up with this post but after reading these I say go with it! I'm in!For the naysayers I say look to the pics. If the Gemini 6 crew had a patch design and it was on their suit and then it had to change to be, say GTA-6 or GT-6A, then do both! It's theirs- get over it! This was their design(s) and we are lucky that we can make these repros before they are lost to history. I almost cry when I see Wally Schirra's(?) Mercury suit with that lousy incorrect patch on it in San Diego's museum. Somebody there just thought it should be put on and did it!
Thanks and good collecting. |
astroborg
Member Posts: 200
From: Woodbridge, VA, USA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-25-2007 12:30 PM
I may be a little late, but thank you so much for keeping this going. I look forward to the conclusion of the effort to make available accurate Gemini reproductions. It looks like it's in great hands! |
kyra
Member Posts: 583
From: Louisville CO US
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 05-26-2007 11:08 PM
Great site, Luc!There was an earlier reference to the Life in Space book. My copy of this book was destroyed many years ago in a flood. However, before mold had completely attacked it, I saved the corner pictures of the Gemini patches. The upper corners were the only part that didn't get wet. I can lay them on my scanner and send a copy to you, I believe they are fairly good resolution ! |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 05-28-2007 04:10 AM
Thanks Kyra, but I've got the Life in space book and plan to use scans on the site as well. The more different copies of the patch we see, the more accurate reproductions we can achieve, I think. |
GoesTo11
Member Posts: 1309
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 06-25-2007 11:09 AM
Any news on this project?BTW, for all interested parties, I just picked up Apogee Books' Pocket Space Guides to Project Mercury and Project Gemini, and they illustrated the currently available "commemorative" mission patches for each flight. I love this series of books, but Apogee should have either dug up the authentic insignia or specified that the patches illustrated were not worn on the actual missions. |
JohnBerry
Member Posts: 35
From: Helotes, TX
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 08-04-2007 01:10 PM
Hello! I'm volunteering my time, effort, and money to help out. I'm planning to pick up the thread here - so to speak - and get a quality reproduction of the GT-3 "Molly Brown" patch made. The better picture of an original example I can get, the better the end result...There will a hallmark added to the design - a CS if you guys like as has been discussed, or perhaps a 'G' for Gusmobile... Obviously, I'll be selling them to y'all at essentially cost+shipping - I'll be happy if I can break even. Can someone send along a high-rez scan of an original Molly Brown patch? |
andrewcli
Member Posts: 328
From: La Jolla, CA, USA
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 08-05-2007 12:21 PM
Hope this helps out! |
Bill Hunt
Member Posts: 399
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 08-05-2007 03:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JohnBerry:
Can someone send along a high-rez scan of an original Molly Brown patch?
Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you. I've e-mailed you high-rez scans of all my Gemini patches. If for some reason you can't get the e-mail, just let me know and I'll find another way to get them to you. |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 08-06-2007 06:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JohnBerry:
Can someone send along a high-rez scan of an original Molly Brown patch?
I don't want to claim any rights to reproductions of Gemini patches - but I was planning to include both Gemini 3 and 4 into our set. And I think it would be more cost effective to have the entire set produced with one manufacturer.So, I don't want to stop your effort ina any way, but I would be sorry to see duplication of effort, especially since your aim to offer the repro to the collectSPACE community too. By the way; the link to the Molly Brown on Bahneman.com shows a reproduction Molly Brown, not the original. |
TRaimonde
New Member Posts:
From:
Registered:
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posted 08-09-2007 09:24 PM
I've been watching this thread with interest for the past few months and am excited about the project so put me down for a set as well!However, I've lost track of what is planned to be included in the set. It is my current understanding that the plan is to include (reproductions of) the Molly Brown and Gemini 4 McDivitt museum patches; flown versions of Gemini 5 through 12; and the Gemini era meatball. Is this correct? |
Bill Nelson
Member Posts: 151
From: Lakewood, Colorado U.S.A.
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 08-10-2007 03:55 PM
I would like to get a set of the Gemini patches. Please put me down for a set when they become available. Bill Nelson |
SpaceKris
New Member Posts:
From:
Registered:
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posted 08-10-2007 05:53 PM
I am also interested in these patches, please let me know when they are available! I think this is a very good idea and they this is a great opportunity to get the original designs. |
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