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posted 10-30-2001 05:51 PM               

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Has anyone has done any study of the embroidery style of genuine Soviet made vs. souvenir versions of the Russian space program's patches?

What I am finding is that at a certain point the Soviets may have started having their patches made in the west - but before then (and I have no idea when) there must be a way to tell from the embroidery style if it is a true Soviet made patch or a western reproduction.

I can tell from the stitching where a WW2 era patch was made, and figured someone must have done a study of this. I'd hate to start buying Soviet Space patches then find out that most of them are the common 'made in USA' versions.

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posted 11-17-2001 08:47 AM               

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It's difficult to describe in writing how to differentiate a Soviet made patch from western manufactures. If you see them side-by-side no problem.

The major giveaway is the thread patterning. The Soviet made patches utilize a much lower thread count per inch than the western machine made patches. Another aspect that confuses the issue slightly is the INTERCOSMOS patches. The guest countries all provided patches which vary widely in quality. But again, if you see an original side by side with a western made version, no question of origin.

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posted 11-19-2001 12:39 AM               

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Most Soviet/Russian space force patches are made using a lycra rubberized screening process on a tight knit woolen cloth/felt combination. Some patches will have an additional white cloth backing with an ink cryillic stamping.

Manned space flight patches are cloth and woven embroidery, but as stated, one can easily tell the difference between Soviet/Russian patches and western creations. My advice is to handle as many as possible, it's the best way to gain knowledge about originals versus bad.

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posted 11-19-2001 06:00 PM               

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Of course the problem is finding genuine Soviet made patches to learn from. I bought one from a guy who swore it was good from the 'odd' manufacture, but it matched the exact make of one I bought as a souvenier patch that came with a 'made in china' tag on it.

Of course the other quetsion is at what time did the Russians start outsourcing patch making to the west? According to one company in the UK they started making patches for them.

I know from Soviet Military insngia that in the days of the Soviet Union all materials were supposed to be stampoed by the maker with the date of manufacture. So I assume that if the company that 11 gaziillion motor rifle troops patyches had to stamp them, that the space patches needed to be marked as well. (Yes, I collected Soviet military insignia when it was actually worth something, only to see my collection become totally worthless when the wall came down.)

Anyway, all suggestions of sources for actual Soviet Made patches are welcome. But at the very least I have caused more posts on this subject to happen !!!

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posted 11-23-2001 09:17 AM               

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You're certainly right about getting hands on originals being a bit difficult. I would also suggest checking out Alex Panchenko's website to see examples. His stuff is great and tends to be original Zvezda production patches.

Another place to look is through space auction catalogs, especially from the earlier 90's. There's lots of good pictures of older patches to reference potential acquisitions against.

When the Russians began outsourcing contracts to the west it is only natural to expect that the style of the patches would change. If you're a hardcore collector you may want to stick to the pre-1989 stuff, or do the extra research and locate post-90 patches form the actual contractors.

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posted 10-31-2003 05:32 AM               

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Does anyone know of a few good sources for original Soviet mission emblems? I deal with USSR Airspace all the time, and Alex is a fantastic resource, but I was wondering if the companies that actually make the Russian emblems for the flights sell them directly to the public.

Unfortunately, there have been a lot of Western-made "fakes" listed as genuine Russian patches made for the cosmonauts on eBay lately. I know Stewart Aviation makes replicas. Who does the originals?

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posted 10-31-2003 09:06 AM               

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Please note that Stewart did make the original TM-16,17 and 18 patches.

Also, you might be surprised, the TMA-2 sold lately on eBay is original. It is made by Spaceview Operations in the Netherlands, who have the contract with Star City. They also did some of the later Mir-era originals, but they ran out of supplies.

The later Mir emblems and earlier ISS patches embroidered on felt are done by Planeta Zemlja, but I have no idea what their address is and if they have patches left. Your best bet is Alex Panchenko and some luck on eBay.

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posted 10-31-2003 05:22 PM               

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RSA is not making their own "crew"-patches. The black felt types (Mir-23, Mir-24, Mir-25, Mir-28, TM-32 [Tito] and TM-33 [Haigenere]) are all from Planeta Zemlja.

Following Mir-23, 24 and 25, for which they both produced a patch, Zemlja and Spaceview started to co-operate and produce the patches in turn. Mir-26 was designed by Zemlja, but produced by Spaceview Operations. TM-29 was designed and produced by Spaceview Operations, Mir-28 was completely done by Zemlja.

International "project" patches (Euromir, Cassiopee, Mir-97, Pegase, Perseus, Stefanik, Odissea, Marco Polo, Cervantes) probably are Russian-made (Zvezda?), but ordered by the international partners (Esa, CNES). Not sure how this works. Anyone has an idea?

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posted 11-01-2003 06:52 AM               

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If you have a Tito-patch with felt background, it is Planeta Zemlja and original. (Tito was also wearing a square blue patch with planet Earth on it: this is the logo of Planeta Zemlja). Same for Haignere (TM-33 crew patch with Russian and French flag) - felt background is original. I know it is these that Alex is selling.

Mir-28 is a different story. The patches for the cosmonauts (made by Planeta Zemlja) had a black felt background. Several replica's exist on a felt background as well, but Planet Zemlja also seems to have made some on a shiny nylon background. (the unflown patch at USSR-Airspace is nylon, the flown one is felt). You can recognize the original Mir-28 (either on felt or nylon - the embroidery is exactly the same) by the color blue in the flag. If it is royal blue, it is original. If it is a pale light blue, it is not.

AB Emblem also made a replica of the Mir-28 patch. The names of the cosmonauts are too big in theirs, though. I hope to add these patches to our site soon, so you can see the differences.

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posted 11-02-2003 04:47 PM               

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As one of the players involved, I thought I'd add to the confusion on the theme of 'official' Russian patches:

I don't think there is such a thing as an 'official Russian crew patch'. It seems the guys at Novosti Kosmonavtika (the world's best space magazine) had good contacts with the cosmonauts and with Stewart Aviation. It has been private initiatives all the way... none of the patches produced by Stewart, Spaceview (Jaap Terweij and me) or Planeta Zyemlya have ever been sanctioned by RKA but sometimes made it onto flight overalls and a couple of Sokols (one of my designs did, I am proud to say).

A few years ago when Spaceview and Zyemlya decided to cooperate, there was talk of a contract with RKA, but nothing materialized. And now, things are very confusing with me designing the TMA3 patch in a hurry and sending it off to Moscow... getting no reply but coming accross it on Polish and American sites... I in now way wanted this to be published as I considered this a sketch, to be finisched by Zyemlya.

Anyway, since Erik and Jacques are running the best single source on space patches in the world, I'll be offloading all the info I have on Russian crew patches to them, hoping we can get the history on these, and some older ones... straight.

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posted 02-09-2010 07:37 PM               

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I am hoping somebody can help me out here. I am thinking about collecting Soviet-Russian space patches. My approach to this is probably a lot more basic than most of you. Most of you guys are really serious collectors and are thinking about whether your Soviet space patch was made in Russia, or the UK, or what the thread count is, etc. Me: I am just thinking about whether my patch even represents something that was actually made as an official emblem of an actual space launch, or whether it was something completely made up, like a ‘souvenir’ item, like the so-called Mercury patches. Does anybody know whether there is something out there for Russian space patches, like a Russian counterpart to Gene Dorr’s website?

Example: The start to my Russian space patch collection currently consists of 5 patches. Two of them are allegedly replicas (or at least vague facsimiles) of the two Voskhod flights. I have no idea whether there were actually emblems for these two flights, or whether they are invented, like the Mercury patches. Then I also found something on eBay which I THINK might be a souvenir patch for Leonov’s spacewalk. I have no idea.

Anyway, if someone out there has any real insight into Russian and Soviet spaceflight patches I would really appreciate hearing from you, and I would like to have the opportunity to seek your expertise from time to time.

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posted 02-10-2010 09:19 AM               

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We still have a lot of gaps and dead pages, but try here and click the Russian/Soviet related chapters.

I remember covering Salyut/Interkosmos and Mir pretty well some years ago, but it needs a lot of updates.

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posted 02-10-2010 10:45 AM               

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Thanks for the link to this 'patch website'. Wow, not really much there on Soyuz. I suppose it's still being worked.

But I guess a good rule of thumb might be: if you cant find pics of a patch anywhere in use during the time of the flight, treat it as a souvenir, until something surfaces to treat it as something else.

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posted 02-10-2010 10:49 AM               

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As a followup, I did notice a lot more in the 'Salyut' category, coupled with the Intercosmos topic.

Here is another question I suppose I have now: I have seen two versions of these Intercosmos patches. It seems the easiest to obtain are the versions which look like shields, with two flags at the top. Now I wonder if these also are 'souvenirs'?

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posted 02-10-2010 10:34 PM               

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Well that clears that up about the Intercosmos patches. There were a bunch of them going dirt cheap on eBay and I wondered why. Now I know. Thanks!! Glad I didn't scoop them up. I said it before, I don't have a problem with souvenir patches, as long as I know that's what it is and it's all above board. I appreciate you guys (and gals) helping me make sense of the Russian and Soviet stuff.

Something else; Based on what I have been picking up from these threads; that perhaps there never was any "official" crew-mission patches approved by RKA or predecessors, it makes me wonder if this might go back to a manifestation of a very basic mindset where spaceflight missions were more or less viewed like any other Soviet military mission, not requiring a crew patch that conferred hallowed status on the crew members.

I think it shows kind of a fundamental difference in the way the two cultures viewed things. Odd then, that the Chinese space program has started off flight one with mission emblems.

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