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  Forever Young: A Life of Adventure in Air and Space (John Young with James Hansen) (Page 1)

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Author Topic:   Forever Young: A Life of Adventure in Air and Space (John Young with James Hansen)
cspg
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posted 02-08-2012 02:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cspg   Click Here to Email cspg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Forever Young: A Life of Adventure in Air and Space
by John W. Young with James R. Hansen
Foreword by Michael Collins

Editor's note: See here for the previous discussion of John Young's long-awaited memoirs.

contra
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posted 02-08-2012 04:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for contra   Click Here to Email contra     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Finally

Henry Heatherbank
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posted 02-09-2012 02:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Henry Heatherbank     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I guess a fair degree of comfort can be taken from James Hansen's involvement, but are there any sneak-peek excerpts available? Or are they likely to be available by way of teasers?

I soooo want this to be a great book, but don't want to buy something hurried, underdone or, frankly, a turkey. Like Moonshot. Or Live From Cape Canaveral.

Rick Mulheirn
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posted 02-09-2012 05:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bring it on.....!

gliderpilotuk
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posted 02-09-2012 07:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great! I hope it carries some of John Young's dry/ironic sense of humour.

robsouth
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posted 02-09-2012 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for robsouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just clicked on the link to take a look and the book has no cover yet, so just for fun what photo would you like to see on the front cover? You have six missions to choose from and a long career at NASA.

My joint favourites would be John Young jumping and saluting the flag on the moon and just after his first shuttle mission when he practically jumped down the stairs and was punching the air.

Rick Mulheirn
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posted 02-09-2012 12:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rick Mulheirn   Click Here to Email Rick Mulheirn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For the front cover my choice would have to be the Apollo 16 "jump salute"; in keeping with the title Forever Young as well as being a fantastic image.

Sy Liebergot
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posted 02-09-2012 12:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sy Liebergot   Click Here to Email Sy Liebergot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wonder how this John Young Apollo 13 anecdote fared in the book? I had several discussions with Jim Hansen as to its veracity.

onesmallstep
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posted 02-09-2012 04:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for onesmallstep   Click Here to Email onesmallstep     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For the dustcover, I'll put my two cents in and choose a photo of him inspecting Columbia after the STS-1 landing. Will never forget the big grin and hearty handshakes after an historic mission. He seemed joyous and 'forever young'..

MCroft04
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posted 02-09-2012 08:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MCroft04   Click Here to Email MCroft04     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sy Liebergot:
I wonder how this John Young Apollo 13 anecdote fared in the book?
Sy, Do you remember John saying that? If so I'm curious what you said to him.

p51
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posted 02-09-2012 11:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Like the rest of you, I'm really looking forward to this.

My Dad worked for Young's father in an orange juice plant near Apopka in the early 1960s. He met Young the one time he came to visit his father at the plant (right after a big freeze that required people work 12-hours days, every day, for several weeks, Dad still looks back on that as a nightmare experience).

I know Mike Mullane didn't paint a flattering picture of Young as an administrator in "Riding Rockets," but I'm really interested in reading Young's work. Mostly I'm interested in his STS-1 experience. I've always thought that this flight should be considered one of the most impressive test flights of all time in regard to all that could have gone wrong (some of which almost did).

Young's comments about not knowing the overpressure issue on the flaps has always intrigued me. Imagine where the program would have been had they ejected from the shuttle like he said he would have had he known the conditions of the flaps.

spaced out
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posted 02-10-2012 01:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MCroft04:
Sy, Do you remember John saying that? If so I'm curious what you said to him.
If I remember rightly this was covered by Sy in another thread, where he stated that Young wasn't actually on the floor of the mission control room at the time, and certainly wasn't standing looking over Sy's shoulder interpreting the incoming telemetry at that moment.

robsouth
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posted 02-10-2012 07:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for robsouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In a lot of documentaries about Apollo 13 there is a shot of Mission Control shown, during the emergency, and in that clip there is one guy with his head on the desk and his hands on the back of his head, as if he thinks that the situation is going to have a bad end result. That guy looks like John Young. Maybe he was talking about a time a little after the initial explosion when things looked bad and he was in Mission Control.

Sy Liebergot
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posted 02-10-2012 08:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sy Liebergot   Click Here to Email Sy Liebergot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Folks, John was not there. Here is my reaction to Jim Hansen:
Different recollection: The MOCR was pretty much empty of any non-assigned Mission personnel when the oxygen tank blew during the last hour of my 8-hour work shift. One exception was astronaut Vance Brand who was sitting behind astronaut CapCom Jack Lousma whose console was to the immediate left of my EECOM console where I was sitting. No one else was near or behind me when the data on my screens went squirrelly. If someone had been standing behind me and was voicing their distracting interpretation of the tiny data numbers on my screens, I believe I would have "firmly" asked the person to leave. Memory can be a tricky thing.

Also, most of the astronauts were not familiar with the data as formatted on our screens. Plus, the numbers were practically unreadable if you were standing and looking over my shoulder.

However, in the end, I told Hansen that it was John's memoirs, so he was entitled to recall what he wanted.

dog320
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posted 02-10-2012 05:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dog320     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It seems like I've been waiting forever for this, glad to hear it's nearly complete.

I really hope that Mr. Young's character comes out in this, both as a pilot (great) and a manager (not so). Memory is a tricky sucker and over-reliance on it has let down many a set of memoirs. I reckon that Hansen can be relied on to keep things straight in that area. Legends are great, but the really great ones are big enough to give us the truth.

Can't wait.

freshspot
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posted 02-12-2012 06:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for freshspot   Click Here to Email freshspot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm looking forward to this. Hansen did an excellent job with Armstrong's "First Man" so I think he is an ideal choice as collaborator for Young.

I pre-ordered on Amazon because (at least in the USA market) Amazon tends to ship first. Amazon's supply chain systems are amazing and they also offer the best price. If you pre-order, they will alter the price before shipping to lowest possible (usually 37% off).

astro-nut
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posted 02-12-2012 03:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for astro-nut   Click Here to Email astro-nut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looking forward to this one — can't wait!! A great title for a great book!

p51
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posted 03-22-2012 08:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Like most others here, I too am looking forward to this book. I've always been interested in Young since my dad told me about meeting him in the very early 60s and soon afterward reading his less-than-flattering description in Mullane's book, "Riding Rockets". I watched an interview with him recently and I noticed every time he started to smile he consciously (and somewhat awkwardly) stopped himself.

Even as a kid when STS-1 took off, I was impressed with the crew of a spacecraft that had never been flight tested before (it would be years later before I learned they'd never even test fired the SBRs vertically before the STS-1 launch). Even to a 12-year-old watching STS-1 lifting off, that showed real guts. It goes with the old aviation quote of, "Never fly the 'A' model of anything."

All that said, Mullane's book pulled no punches about Young as an administrator or leader. You can take that as you will because Tom Jones' book, "Sky Walking" said the exact opposite of Young. Jones seemed to deeply admire Young.

Sy, I understand what you mean about an astronaut not understanding your data. I'd always wondered about Young's quote. That never made sense that any astronaut would have the same comprehension from the screen that you or your fellow controllers would have. There's no way an astronaut would know every screen and be able to decode any possible set of data.

Other than seeing stuff change quickly and know something wasn't right (like the scripted scene in the movie when the data goes nuts, the "whoa, what was that?" reaction), an astronaut probably never would know what they were looking at.

dog320
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posted 03-23-2012 07:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dog320     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by p51:
All that said, Mullane's book pulled no punches about Young as an administrator or leader. You can take that as you will because Tom Jones' book, "Sky Walking" said the exact opposite of Young. Jones seemed to deeply admire Young.
Opinions seem to depend upon the context in which a person interacted with Mr. Young - which should be no surprise. I've spoken to crew mates who are nothing but complementary, and to those who, at least initially, had reservations. One highly respected astronaut from the period in question told me bluntly that he felt that Mr. Young was ideally suited to a two man crew, anything more...

Mr. Jones joined NASA long after Mr. Young's tenure as chief astronaut and is not in a position to comment first hand. My point is that it's not just Mr. Mullane who holds a certain view. I've heard no serious denigration of Mr. Young's achievements in space, quite the reverse.

I've seen the same several times in my career, guys who are great in the cockpit and in person, and absolutely dreadful as managers (I happen to work for an old buddy at the moment who is exactly like this).

quote:
There's no way an astronaut would know every screen and be able to decode any possible set of data.
I'm sure that Mr. Young would never claim to know every screen in Mission Control. However he's a very bright guy and spent a lot of time in there, it wasn't just drinking coffee. Whilst I have no idea of the truth here, I'm sure he understood a lot more than Mr. Liebergot realises. Again, from my own experience, crew often have a better "big picture" grip than engineers, it is after all, their job.

A story that did intrigue me was told by Mr. Young at Novaspace a few years back. The one about being warned on Gemini 10 whilst in orbit that there was a risk of cooking off the seat in the sun during Mr. Collins' EVA. I can find absolutely no corroborating evidence.

It's one reason I'm glad to see Hansen involved.

Sy Liebergot
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posted 03-23-2012 10:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sy Liebergot   Click Here to Email Sy Liebergot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cripes, Guys, John was NOT there when the tank blew!

dog320
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posted 03-23-2012 11:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dog320     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK. It's no business of mine, please accept my apology.

Sy Liebergot
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posted 03-23-2012 01:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sy Liebergot   Click Here to Email Sy Liebergot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dog320:
Whilst I have no idea of the truth here, it wouldn't surprise me if he understood a lot more than Mr. Liebergot realizes, and everyone's memory is a tricky thing, we're talking about a brief moment over 40 years ago.
Now look, I will spend a little time on this subject, because I detect a feeling that some of you generally feel that the astronauts practically walked on water. I will strongly tell you that we EECOMs had a better detailed knowledge of the CSM because our systems went into every other system.

Our astronaut colleagues didn't train with our data screens; the rare times that they did was at the Capcom console.

In my book you will read an anecdote when during Apollo 14, Bruce McCandless made a totally incorrect embarrassing call to the spacecraft on my data screen and I had to yell at him that the function had already been performed by Shepard. Big Al was NOT amused. I personally awarded Bruce a DFM (Dumb F**k Medal) for that stunt and after the mission I had to explain to Big Al that I didn't make that redundant call.

I apologize for the rant, but y'all need to understand that I am fiercely loyal to the reputation of us Apollo era flight controllers.

dog320
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posted 03-23-2012 01:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dog320     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sy Liebergot:
Now look, I will spend a little time on this subject, because I detect a feeling that some of you generally feel that the astronauts practically walked on water.
I understand your loyalty and admire your professionalism, however, I don't think the above.

onesmallstep
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posted 03-23-2012 04:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for onesmallstep   Click Here to Email onesmallstep     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's understandable, Sy, that you (and many of us 'civilians' here on cS) are passionate about these topics. But for many years, the 'earthbound astronauts' in the trench at mission control got little or no recognition for their vital roles in manned spaceflight.

I guess Murray and Cox's book 'Apollo: Race to the Moon'; Gene Kranz's 'Failure is Not an Option' and Lovell's book and the movie 'Apollo 13' changed all that.

Like all strongly held opinions, it depends on one's point of view.

p51
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posted 03-23-2012 11:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Knowing how detailed those screens that Sy and the others in 'the trenches' (God how I hate that term. My grandfather was in the trenches in WW1 and I heard he'd slap anyone who used it in any other context) were, I simply refuse to believe that Young (or any other astronaut) could just walk over, look over a controller's shoulder and get the same understanding of the data.

Yes, the crews were very sharp, but nobody is that sharp, to be able to decode all those different screens and get the same message from them. Anyone who's ever been in a support role on almost any job can see that wouldn't likely be the case.

You don't have to work for NASA to recognize the logic in Sy's point.

DChudwin
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posted 03-24-2012 06:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DChudwin   Click Here to Email DChudwin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just ordered my copy of the long awaited book from Amazon. The delivery date is listed as October 5-12. John Young has a unique perspective on the U.S.manned space program because he was a participant in many of its key events between 1962 and 2004, when he retired.

John Young was born in 1930 and memories can play tricks over the years. I tend to agree with Sy, but it would be interesting to ask others who were in the room that night —  Gene Kranz (FLIGHT), Jack Lousma (CAPCOM), Alan Glines (INCO, who will be giving a talk at Spacefest IV), and others — whether they remember John being there at the time of the explosion.

Sy Liebergot
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posted 03-24-2012 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sy Liebergot   Click Here to Email Sy Liebergot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Once more, please refer to the MOCR photo in my Feb 10 post. The photo was taken at about five minutes before O2 Tank 2 exploded. The photo is a bit cropped, showing only the right shoulder of Vance Brand. There is no other astronaut.

However, later on there were eleven of my astronaut colleagues all keeping Jack Lousma close company. Please re-read my comment to Jim Hansen in that Feb. 10 post. Have fun with your doubts.

ejectr
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posted 03-24-2012 09:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ejectr   Click Here to Email ejectr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Geez, there's no need to ask anyone else. Sy was the guy in front of the console, he was the guy that was there and he said John Young was NOT there. What else do you need? You're bucking the statement of a front line participant to the event. Good grief.

The movie is just a movie and even the movie doesn't show Young there.

dog320
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posted 03-25-2012 05:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dog320     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ejectr:
Sy was the guy in front of the console, he was the guy that was there and he said John Young was NOT there. What else do you need?
A video recording of said events? An audio recording supporting one version of said events? A statement by Mr. Young to clarify his position?

The established facts at present seem to be:

  1. Mr Liebergot was there.
  2. Mr Young claims to have been there.
  3. Mr Young and Mr Liebergot have provided incompatible statements.
  4. Mr Liebergot has provided an image that supports but does not prove his statement.
We also know as facts:
  1. A significant number of humans have fallible memories.
  2. Witness statements are unreliable.
In addition, to help us assess probabilities we have various arguments in support of both statements - these are not facts, merely arguments.

There are four possibilities:

  1. Both statement are factually incorrect.
  2. Mr Liebergot is correct and Mr Young is incorrect.
  3. Mr Liebergot is incorrect and Mr Young is correct.
  4. Both statements are (somehow) correct.
Without some type of evidence recorded at the time we cannot know which of these is the case. All we can do is arrive at personal conclusions about probabilities.

A standard historical problem. Its one reason people find history fascinating. Personally I just find it frustrating.

I'm glad Mr Hansen is working on this book, but I don't think I'd like to be in his shoes.

ejectr
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posted 03-25-2012 11:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ejectr   Click Here to Email ejectr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
John Young didn't only say he was there, he said he was looking over Sy's shoulder. I think Sy would remember if he was looking over his shoulder or not.

Kevmac
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posted 03-25-2012 12:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kevmac   Click Here to Email Kevmac     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why is this being turned into a court case? Is there any historical significance to whether Young was there or not? This is a great example of beating a dead horse. I'm not reading this thread any more.

GoesTo11
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posted 03-25-2012 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoesTo11   Click Here to Email GoesTo11     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kevmac:
Why is this being turned into a court case? Is there any historical significance to whether Young was there or not? This is a great example of beating a dead horse.

THANK YOU. My God, this is tiresome.

Dave Clow
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posted 03-26-2012 11:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave Clow   Click Here to Email Dave Clow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GoesTo11:
THANK YOU. My God, this is tiresome.
You might be right, but there aren't many people who take it upon themselves to keep the record straight.

It's worth remembering that a significant population of Americans don't believe any of this happened in the first place. Some of the best stewards of the record are on this site. Better that the details should be tiresome occasionally than that they be lost.

Sy: thanks.

onesmallstep
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posted 03-26-2012 04:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for onesmallstep   Click Here to Email onesmallstep     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From a Chinese fortune cookie: 'Better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot'

Glint
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posted 03-26-2012 04:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glint   Click Here to Email Glint     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sy, thanks for annotating the top photo you posted at February 10, 2012 08:09 AM. Interesting to see where you were in that famous photo. Previous, I only recognized Kranz and Haise in that photo.

If you recall and can recognize them, could you please point out who some of the other heads and shoulders visible in the photo belong to? There's also a couple of folks there sitting behind the glass.

HistorianMom
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posted 03-26-2012 05:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for HistorianMom   Click Here to Email HistorianMom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Amen. Historical accuracy matters. Sometimes you don't know what details will end up being historically significant, so it's always best to get as much right as you can.

GoesTo11
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posted 03-26-2012 08:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoesTo11   Click Here to Email GoesTo11     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HistorianMom:
Amen. Historical accuracy matters. Sometimes you don't know what details will end up being historically significant, so it's always best to get as much right as you can.

Well, I certainly can't argue with that. It's just that the "he said/he said" in this thread about this particular aspect of the Apollo 13 narrative strikes me as redundant and pointless, absent new input from anyone with firsthand recollection of events.

I'm greatly looking forward to reading Young's memoirs, and I'm certainly curious about what he has to say today about the events of 13 April 1970 and his role (if any) in them.

Meantime, here in March 2012 we're fortunate to have a key player in said events who has repeatedly, emphatically, clearly, and without qualification stated his recollection of the events in question and supported that account with photographic documentation. As of now, that's good enough for me and I see no point in belaboring this "issue" further. No disrespect intended to anyone here.

Jay Chladek
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posted 03-28-2012 01:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jay Chladek   Click Here to Email Jay Chladek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
While the issue of Young in (or not in) the MOCR when the tank blew has been beaten to death (take Sy at his word guys, that entire night is ETCHED into his brain just like 9/11 is etched into ours, he's not going to forget a detail like that), I would hope this memoir does talk about a contribution I know John was involved with on Apollo 13, and that was the simulation studies.

Lovell's book only made a vague mention that Young, Duke and Mattingly (the backup crew) along with some of the Apollo 14 crewmembers began to spend nearly round the clock time in the simulators to generate the contingency procedures for I believe the free return burn and PC plus 2 burn. Of course, the Apollo 13 movie shows Mattingly going through powerup procedures, but as I recall it was more than just him in the simulators in real life.

No book has ever really talked about that yet to my knowledge.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-01-2012 04:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Updated first post with revised release date and new cover art (also below).

GoesTo11
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posted 05-01-2012 08:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoesTo11   Click Here to Email GoesTo11     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rather obvious cover choice, but hard to argue with...


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