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  Forever Young: A Life of Adventure in Air and Space (John Young with James Hansen) (Page 2)

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Author Topic:   Forever Young: A Life of Adventure in Air and Space (John Young with James Hansen)
p51
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posted 05-02-2012 01:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GoesTo11:
Rather obvious cover choice, but hard to argue with...
Yeah, if I were him, there couldn't possibly be any other choice. Who could pick a better photo than that?

Henry Heatherbank
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posted 05-02-2012 05:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Henry Heatherbank     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The problem I have always had with that photo, is that is quite difficult to (quickly) work out Young is jumping. This is partly because of the background topography that makes it look as though he is standing on a small hummock.

But I agree, this photo is the obvious choice. I guess others could have been a Gemini suit shot (but that would be too much like Hansen's "First Man" cover) or the flight deck shot from STS-1, but that photo is quite cluttered.

cycleroadie
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posted 08-20-2012 10:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cycleroadie   Click Here to Email cycleroadie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have already pre-ordered my book as I am excited to read it. I am hoping some of John's "dry humor" comes through in the writing.

Fra Mauro
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posted 08-20-2012 01:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fra Mauro   Click Here to Email Fra Mauro     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can't wait to get my hands on the book. Young is the last of the Apollo giants to have written one and it is likely to be the last astronaut biography to be this highly anticipated.

todd172
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posted 08-31-2012 05:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for todd172   Click Here to Email todd172     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was surprised to see the hard cover in my local bookstore in Grand Rapids, MI today. I thought it would be another few weeks yet.

cspg
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posted 09-01-2012 10:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cspg   Click Here to Email cspg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not according to the publisher, which claims that orders will ship about a month before publication date. I quote:
Please note that while you may order this book at any time, it will not be available for shipment until approximately one month before publication date.

gliderpilotuk
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posted 09-05-2012 06:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For anyone in the UK, Foyles have this for £15.33 (delivery included) - £11 less than list price and 30% cheaper than Amazon.

garymilgrom
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posted 09-05-2012 06:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for garymilgrom   Click Here to Email garymilgrom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I received a note from Amazon this morning that mine had shipped yesterday. I'm really looking forward to this book.

PeterO
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posted 09-05-2012 07:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PeterO   Click Here to Email PeterO     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting - Amazon still lists it as "not yet released", so apparently they're filling the pre-orders before changing the status. Barnes & Noble's site has had it in stock since late last week. The Kindle and Nook e-books (which I'm waiting for) both still say they won't be available until September 16.

[On edit]

I've just been browsing the Prologue on Amazon's preview, and I've found a odd error. In the paragraphs where the LM undocks, the book consistently refers to three landing gear legs, not four. This reference includes quotes from the voice transcript.

Mattingly: I see you rolling, or yawing, as you guys do it. I see one, two, ought to see three legs. Haven't seen them all yet.

Mattingly: I can see three legs loud and clear.

Why would they be talking about only three legs?

Tykeanaut
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posted 09-05-2012 10:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tykeanaut   Click Here to Email Tykeanaut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gliderpilotuk:
For anyone in the UK, Foyles have this for £15.33 (delivery included)
Thanks for the "heads-up" Paul.

john ffoulkes
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posted 09-05-2012 10:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for john ffoulkes   Click Here to Email john ffoulkes     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks also, I have managed to cancel my order at Amazon.com and ordered from Foyles. Means I will get it quicker as well.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 09-05-2012 11:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PeterO:
This reference includes quotes from the voice transcript.
NASA's transcript does indeed read three, though garbled audio meant that "legs" wasn't transcribed.
I can see three... loud and clear.
Maybe from Mattingly's perspective, he could only see three legs...

kr4mula
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posted 09-05-2012 12:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kr4mula   Click Here to Email kr4mula     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I got an e-mail this morning from Amazon that the "estimated arrival date" for my pre-order of the book is now September 10, instead of September 19th.

328KF
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posted 09-05-2012 02:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 328KF   Click Here to Email 328KF     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had looked through some of the Amazon preview and found some apparent errors as well, which could be simple typos, but still surprising they got through reviews and editing.

The first error is that the first launch attempt for STS-1 was April 17th, even though further down on that same page it correctly states that the actual launch occurred on the 12th.

The second one I found was that the shuttle was declared operational and the ejection seats deactivated following STS-2, when in fact this was the case following STS-4. The fifth flight was the first to fly with four crewmembers and no pressure suits, so this was the point at which the two ejection seats were no longer armed.

Hopefully these are rare instances in the book, and I still look forward to reading this much-anticipated memoir.

Hart Sastrowardoyo
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posted 09-05-2012 03:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Minor nit is mention of the Missouri being the last battleship built by the US. It was the last completed battleship; indeed, the bow of Kentucky (BB-66) was used to repair Wisconsin.

katabatic
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posted 09-05-2012 03:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katabatic   Click Here to Email katabatic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just got my copy and was glancing through it, and found, on p.341, this, regarding the Columbia accident:
Columbia got into orbit without any trouble, docked on schedule with the ISS...
Ouch...

AJ
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posted 09-07-2012 08:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AJ   Click Here to Email AJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ordered a copy from amazon on Wednesday and it arrived today. Amazon initially changed the arrival date to Sept. 10 so I was pleasantly surprised to receive it today. Can't wait to read it now!!

GACspaceguy
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posted 09-08-2012 08:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GACspaceguy   Click Here to Email GACspaceguy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AJ:
Ordered a copy from amazon on Wednesday and it arrived today.
Interesting, and my pre-order from back in Feb. only shipped out yesterday and is scheduled to arrive Monday.

garymilgrom
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posted 09-08-2012 09:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for garymilgrom   Click Here to Email garymilgrom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PeterO:
I've found a odd error. In the paragraphs where the LM undocks, the book consistently refers to three landing gear legs, not four.
This is in the prologue and is very odd. From page 2: "One thing we wanted was a good close-up visual inspection of the lunar module by T.K., so he could see whether the LM's entire three-legged landing gear had extended properly...."

Perhaps Young was talking about the three ground sensors and the author misundstood?

AJ
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posted 09-08-2012 10:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AJ   Click Here to Email AJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't wish to detract from the excitement of this book, which is something a lot of us have been looking forward to for a long time, but I am a bit disappointed in some of the errors, which could be caught by a proofreader. I don't blame JWY or Hansen, but rather the publisher. The introduction by Mike Collins refers to JWY as the commander of Apollo 15!

Cosmetically, I'm a wee bit disappointed that the photos weren't printed better. Glossy color pages would have been fantastic. That said, there are some very interesting photos that I've never seen so I can't complain about that.

The little that I've read so far, it definitely *sounds* like JWY, which is a good thing.

jiffyq58
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posted 09-08-2012 08:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jiffyq58   Click Here to Email jiffyq58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I haven't read even an excerpt of this book yet, except what has been reported here. But as an editor, I am very disappointed to hear about what appear to be some very shoddy errors in the text. Any good publishing house is going to have a very accomplished copy editor, one or more fact checkers, and proofreaders assigned to the project. And the kinds of errors that have been described should have been picked up by one or more of these people. How could it be that Columbia is reported as docking with the ISS on its last mission when that did not happen? I have really been looking forward to this book, but my enthusiasm has been dampened by the comments I've read so far.

Henry Heatherbank
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posted 09-08-2012 10:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Henry Heatherbank     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree; I am still awaiting my copy to arrive but my enthusiasm is also dampened. I take an even stronger line on these editing errors. I absolutely detest coming across basic errors in bios/autobios.

Not only should the editors be held to account, but why aren't the subjects of these books "kicking arse" to make sure this sort of stuff gets picked up? After all, they are putting their names to these books, so it impacts on their credibility a little bit.

Maybe I'm just "old school" about it, but there is no excuse (using this book as an example) for anybody involved with this book not knowing who the CDRs of Apollo 15 and 16 were, for crying out loud.

And the STS-107 Columbia/ISS error is just plain embarrassing.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 09-08-2012 10:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Heatherbank:
I absolutely detest coming across basic errors in bios/autobios.
While I agree that errors are certainly regrettable, I think it would be unfortunate if books were written off based solely on historical typos.

If the errors, as irksome as they might be, do not interfere with the author sharing the story he is intending to tell, then I think it would fair to rank the book on the quality of the narrative rather than the occasional mistake.

I haven't seen a copy of Forever Young yet, but even with the noted errors, my interest in reading it remains focused on what Young shares of his own experiences rather than established history he may recount.

MCroft04
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posted 09-09-2012 08:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MCroft04   Click Here to Email MCroft04     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with Robert's statement, but when I find blatant errors in a book, I have a difficult time believing the other stuff. But, there is a lesson here; never accept a single source as being factual. It's absolutely necessary to double and triple check the "words" before taking them as fact. On the other hand, I find it fulfilling that I know enough about this subject that I can pick out all those mistakes that the novice would miss.

ea757grrl
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posted 09-09-2012 08:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ea757grrl   Click Here to Email ea757grrl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My hope is the errors will be caught (and here we can perhaps play a role, if we constructively point out the errors) so that if there's a second edition or a paperback version, it will be a corrected version.

This brings to mind the old thing about publishing - and I speak from painful experience here - that the surest way to find errors in your work is to publish it....

AJ
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posted 09-09-2012 09:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AJ   Click Here to Email AJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are two ways to look at it: as a fun book or an academic book. If I were writing an academic paper and wanted to use Young's book as a source, that could be problematic. In an academic sense, one error can reflect badly on the rest of the book. So it's unrealistic to be frustrated, worried, or disappointed in the quality of the proofreading. Again, it's the responsibility of the publisher, not Young or Hansen.

That said, it is a very enjoyable read and I'm enjoying learning so much more about his life. It is indeed a fun read.

MCroft04
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posted 09-09-2012 09:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MCroft04   Click Here to Email MCroft04     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why is Hansen not responsible? Didn't he write the book and shouldn't he be held accountable for errors as well as the editors who missed the mistakes? Errors are going to happen, but someone has to take responsibility and in my opinion it begins with the author. And yes hopefully the errors will be corrected in future editions.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 09-09-2012 09:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MCroft04:
Didn't he write the book...
Unlike First Man, which was a biography of Neil Armstrong written by Hansen, Forever Young is an autobiography, written by John Young with Hansen. My understanding is that Hansen helped shape some of the manuscript, but it was Young who did the bulk of the writing.

I'm not sure its productive to assign or ascribe blame to anyone. But if we can use our knowledge of space history to identify the errors and affect their correction in later editions, than that seems a worthy pursuit.

GoesTo11
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posted 09-09-2012 10:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoesTo11   Click Here to Email GoesTo11     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your point's well taken, Robert. But there are errors, and there are egregious errors. STS-107 to the ISS? The author misidentified as CDR of Apollo 15? By a fellow astronaut? In the introduction??

"Blame" whoever you want, but I'm sorry, those are inexcusable.

1202 Alarm
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posted 09-09-2012 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 1202 Alarm     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
After these two pages, I won't rush and will wait for the paperback edition. For sure, most of the errors mentioned above will be corrected.

Definitely, James R. Hansen isn't Andrew Chaikin... I'm reading 'First Man' again, and sadly the pain is not entirely due to Neil's death.

kr4mula
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posted 09-10-2012 01:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kr4mula   Click Here to Email kr4mula     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Has anyone made it through the whole book yet? I received mine from Amazon last Thursday, but haven't had time to get more than about halfway through it.

So far, I've been distracted by what seems to be an unusual level of sloppiness in terms of editing and fact-checking. John Young is, of course, remembering events and discussions from 50-60 years ago, so naturally some of it would be vague, mis-remembered, or perhaps colored by past publications and movies, but he could've used someone to go over the material more carefully to clean it up. However, having dealt with Mr. Young on several occasions, I can attest that he's not the easiest guy to argue with.

Still, I'm looking forward to getting through the rest and will withhold final judgment until then.

cspg
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posted 09-10-2012 01:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cspg   Click Here to Email cspg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GoesTo11:
The author misidentified as CDR of Apollo 15?

Who was the CDR of Apollo 15? No idea (and I'm not kidding; I can't remember what I did last week so names of 40-year old missions...). But I agree STS-107 to the ISS, that's a "funny" one. It's probably inexcusable to the experts. The others will enjoy reading the book.

Hart Sastrowardoyo
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posted 09-10-2012 06:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hart Sastrowardoyo   Click Here to Email Hart Sastrowardoyo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AJ:
There are two ways to look at it: as a fun book or an academic book.

Maybe it's my years as a journalist, but even one minor error can set off a, "What else is wrong with this story?" in me. Case in point was a recent article in which was stated Armstrong's Gemini flight happened the same year he ejected from the LLRV. Fine article otherwise, but to make a mistake on such a basic point just aggravated me throughout the rest of the piece. It's like not being able to enjoy "The Terminal" because that airport in no way resembles JFK.

jiffyq58
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posted 09-10-2012 06:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jiffyq58   Click Here to Email jiffyq58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think you have to get your basic facts right in a book like this. Do most of us here already know that John Young was CDR of Apollo 16, not 15, and do most of us know that the final flight of Columbia did NOT go to the ISS? Yeah, sure. We also know that the LM had four landing legs, not three. But yes, when we who know see such fundamental things reported in such an egregiously mistaken way, it really distracts from just enjoying the book. For me, it takes me right out of the narrative, and makes me think "How could they have gotten that wrong?"

I'm still going to buy the book, and I'm certainly still going to read it and try to enjoy it in spite of its faults. But I still say that such painfully obvious errors should have been spotted and fixed before publication.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 09-10-2012 07:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jiffyq58:
We also know that the LM had four landing legs, not three.
I've seen it suggested elsewhere that this was in reference to the three legs that had landing probes and that the audio actually has Mattingly only confirming seeing three (legs).

GoesTo11
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posted 09-10-2012 07:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoesTo11   Click Here to Email GoesTo11     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jiffyq58, my feelings exactly. As demonstrated by the earlier discussion of JWY's role in the Apollo 13 crisis, individuals' recollections of events can legitimately differ and even conflict, especially in the history of an enterprise involving tens of thousands of people from top to bottom. But it's just not that hard to get straightforward historical facts right, and when these thing slip through--especially in a book aimed at a highly specific, sophisticated, and knowledgeable audience--it throws up more red flags than a May Day parade.

Like you, I still plan on reading Young's memoir, because I want to hear the "side" of the story from one of our most professionally accomplished yet (publicly) reticent astronauts. But there's just no good reason for errors like these to ever make it into print.

AJ
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posted 09-11-2012 07:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AJ   Click Here to Email AJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jiffyq58:
But I still say that such painfully obvious errors should have been spotted and fixed before publication.
Think about how it might be read by someone who isn't a space nerd, maybe someone who enjoys autobiographies or American history. Would that person know that these are errors? We're talking about people mistakenly believing incorrect facts. No matter which way we debate it, I think that is really rather disappointing, because it does a disservice to readers.

the clocks running
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posted 09-12-2012 12:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for the clocks running     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just picked the book up last night at Barnes & Noble.

Can't wait to dig in!

hermit
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posted 09-12-2012 12:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hermit   Click Here to Email hermit     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ea757grrl:
the surest way to find errors in your work is to publish it...
AMEN!

WAWalsh
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posted 09-12-2012 09:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for WAWalsh   Click Here to Email WAWalsh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AJ:
Think about how it might be read by someone who isn't a space nerd, maybe someone who enjoys autobiographies or American history.
Really all depends on how good the proofreader/editor is. By way of example, for a law review article or peer-reviewed publication, every fact in every sentence is suppose to be checked. This approach would catch whether or not Columbia docked with the ISS, regardless of whether or not the proofreader is a space geek.


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