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Author Topic:   Signing history and experience: Bill Anders
mjanovec
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posted 04-16-2010 04:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kosmo:
To me the style of writing on Bob M's piece is an atypical autograph (his I'm annoyed, PO'd) but what do I know, I'm still learning.
I would almost say that an "atypical" autograph from Anders is actually pretty typical. I think Anders uses that style on items on items he knows would have a higher market value (space-related items signed in the past decade or so...in particular). By placing a less desirable-looking signature on the item, he might feel that he's limiting the potential value of the item.

It's also interesting to note that the three items consigned by the San Diego Air and Space Museum at today's Regency-Superior auction failed (by all appearances) to attract a single bid... despite being signed by Anders (in his more classic style) and several other astronauts. It goes to show that the "value" of a signed piece is all in the eye of the beholder. For some, his signature might be worth the $2500 investment. But it appears that for today's bidders, it wasn't even worth a $900-1000 investment.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-16-2010 05:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kosmo:
(his I'm annoyed, PO'd)
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
I think Anders uses that style on items on items he knows would have a higher market value
My own experience suggests differently.

Anders signed my copy of "Who's Who in Space" using the same style signature as Bob's at a gala held at The Museum of Flight in 2000.

I asked him to sign the book and he politely refused as he explained he was trying to make his way across the room. A few minutes later, he sought me out in the crowd and volunteered to sign, so the idea that he was upset is not likely (he could have just as easily never come back if he didn't want to sign.)

And I don't think it's likely he thought the book was particularly valuable. He didn't see that others had signed it but even if he had, signed books aren't generally thought of as having a higher market value.

I think he just rotates his signing style to confuse and conflate autograph collectors, and based on this very discussion, it would seem he's succeeded.

mjanovec
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posted 04-16-2010 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
And I don't think it's likely he thought the book was particularly valuable.

That all depends on Anders' perceptions. Some astronauts refuse to sign covers because they feel they are more commercially valuable than signed photos, though there is evidence to the contrary.

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
signed books aren't generally thought of as having a higher market value.

Not even books that have been appraised on Antiques Roadshow as being worth $10,000?

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-16-2010 07:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
Not even books that have been appraised on Antiques Roadshow as being worth $10,000?
Ah, but that was in 2001, after Anders signed it (clearly accounting for 25% percent of the appraisal).

andrewcli
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posted 04-16-2010 09:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for andrewcli   Click Here to Email andrewcli     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Orginally posted by mjanovec:
For some, his signature might be worth the $2500 investment. But it appears that for today's bidders, it wasn't even worth a $900-1000 investment.
The key word here is "investment." Asking for Gen. Anders' autograph should not be considered an investment and I think the majority of people who decided to go for it did not consider this as such, but wanted to add his signature to their collection, have the resources and are very happy with their decisions.

I myself already have a signed Apollo 8 cover and I am seriously considering of asking Gen. Anders to sign my poster with an inscription. As you can see, money is not an issue and I know that if I were to ever sell it, not, it will not come close to the amount of money I spent.

It appears that Gen. Anders will be not changing his mind, again that his decision, and I don't see why we need to continue to criticize him. Those who got his autograph when he signed freely are indeed very lucky. Additionally, good deals can still be found on various auctions and eBay for his autograph. And for those where money is not an issue and want him to sign their unique items, then that is their own business and these collectors should not be criticized for their actions.

mjanovec
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posted 04-17-2010 02:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by andrewcli:
The key word here is "investment." Asking for Gen. Anders' autograph should not be considered an investment and I think the majority of people who decided to go for it did not consider this as such, but wanted to add his signature to their collection, have the resources and are very happy with their decisions.

No matter how you look at it, spending $2500 is an investment. It may not necessarily be an investment for monetary gain, but could be an investment towards personal happiness. If someone wants to make that kind of investment to enhance their collection (and therefore make themselves happier), more power to them. Indeed, it could also be argued that many of the astronauts' current fees are poor investments for monetary gain (especially on personalized items)...but still make a lot of people happy regardless.

However, I do think it's telling that the SDASM pieces consigned to Regency, with multiple other signatures besides Anders, failed to meet the minimum required bids (or get any bids whatsoever). In a large space auction with a lot of collectors/bidders who have deep pockets, that should say something about what the market is willing to pay for such items (even when most of the proceeds go to a museum).

SpaceSteve
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posted 04-17-2010 05:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SpaceSteve   Click Here to Email SpaceSteve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
I do think it's telling that the SDASM pieces consigned to Regency, with multiple other signatures besides Anders, failed to meet the minimum required bids (or get any bids whatsoever).
Weren't these SDASM items also in R-S's last auction? If so, that makes it two consecutive auctions that these items have been in, without garnering any bids.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 04-17-2010 05:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
However, I do think it's telling that the SDASM pieces consigned to Regency, with multiple other signatures besides Anders, failed to meet the minimum required bids (or get any bids whatsoever).
I think it's somewhat stretching to read something about Anders into these lots not selling, other than perhaps that bidders seem less attracted to an event-specific collection of signatures than they are to individual or crew-arranged signed pieces (especially when one of the four museum-consigned lots does not include Anders and also did not sell).

Consider that event-specific Association of Space Explorers posters and Astronaut Scholarship Foundation Hall of Fame posters and prints tend to draw less interest as well, regardless how many rare signatures they include (some of the ASE posters have autographs that are on the top ten rarest signature lists as compiled by collectors and still do not sell).

mjanovec
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posted 04-18-2010 01:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
some of the ASE posters have autographs that are on the top ten rarest signature lists as compiled by collectors and still do not sell.
It's important to remember that rarity does not equal value. Desirability is the key factor. If Armstrong (a none-too-rare signature) had signed those SDASM items instead of Anders, I think we'd see a considerable difference in how well they performed at auction.

steelhead fly fishing
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posted 12-13-2012 08:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steelhead fly fishing   Click Here to Email steelhead fly fishing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does anyone have any updated experiences with Gen. Anders? I'm considering getting him to sign an item, but am unsure of process or contacts to set that up. I too am considering adding him to a multisigned Apollo 8 earthrise.

cycleroadie
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posted 12-14-2012 07:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cycleroadie   Click Here to Email cycleroadie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
William Anders no longer accepts autograph requests.

topmiler
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posted 12-14-2012 09:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for topmiler     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steelhead fly fishing:
Does anyone have any updated experiences with Gen. Anders?
There's a very long queue for Mr Anders I'm afraid.

JasonB
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posted 05-06-2013 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonB   Click Here to Email JasonB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I mailed an item into Anders a year ago along with a $100 bill in the hopes he'd take pity on me. Well today I got a big envelope back (I mailed it in a stamped self addressed box) that had Anders name and P.O. box written on it (I doubt he wrote it). I opened it and of course it was unsigned but he did return my $100 and my item.

No note or explanation was in there but at least I got the stuff back. It was worth a shot! Guess Ill chalk Anders up as an autograph Ill never get myself.

spkjb
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posted 07-29-2013 10:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spkjb   Click Here to Email spkjb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is there any update on Bill Anders signings? Does he still sign through charity to Heritage Flight Museum?

If so, is there a link of how to contact him through this charity and make a donation for his signature? Does he only sign "Earthrise"?

Robert Pearlman
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posted 07-29-2013 10:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From what I understand, Anders no longer signs, not even for donations to his Heritage Flight Museum.

COR482932
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posted 08-01-2013 05:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for COR482932   Click Here to Email COR482932     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For those of you interested in the actual signature of Bill Anders himself, I wanted to share the Anders signed Apollo 8 cover that I have in my collection. It was given to me by a close friend in this great community, who has provided me with nothing but help and friendship.

Axman
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posted 10-11-2023 04:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Axman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Out of the 60 cosmonauts and astronauts who had flown up until the end of 1972 I have managed to collect 52 of their signatures on relevant astrophilatelic covers.

Of the eight I am still missing, I understand why seven of these signatures are hard to get - a combination of rarity (so rare as to be non-existent for two of them) mixed with expensiveness and level of demand. I fail, however, to understand why I am finding such difficulty in obtaining William 'Bill' Anders signature.

Why should his autograph be so hard to find in comparison to such as Aldrin, Borman, Lovell, Eisele or even Gagarin and Titov?

Editor's note: Threads merged.

Now that my post has been merged into this thread, I'm beginning to understand why it is so difficult to obtain a signed cover by him.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 10-12-2023 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With recent revived interest in autographs of NASA Group 3 astronaut Bill Anders, a retired 89-year-old fighter pilot (a Major General of the U.S. Air Force Reserve), engineer, astronaut, commissioner, chairman, and ambassador, I thought it would be appropriate to depict different signed postal covers, photos, and other material from my own collection and studies.

Shown below are over two dozen signatures of Gen. Anders ranging from 1964 until 1991. All the autographs of the Apollo 8 lunar module pilot (LMP) illustrated represent at least five earlier signing-traits or formats from within that time period (less than 30 years). All of the autographs, with the possible exception of a suspect signature on the crew signed Apollo 8 launch photograph, are indeed authentic based on my opinion.

Since Gen. Anders is perhaps the rarest signer of all NASA flown-in-space astronauts before the shuttle program, I wanted to share only those autographs that I am comfortable with of his early signing characteristics mostly throughout the 1960's, 70's and 80's. For those signatures of the Apollo lunar orbiter that were attempted by in-person encounters from after the 1980's, I have no interest and do not collect them (only at times to keep copies for study purposes), even though some may be in fact genuine. I just do not care in acquiring his many atypical signing habits, besides, Gen. Anders has been noted for changing his signing habits a lot in order to confuse collectors. Overall, though, the former Apollo astronaut will usually most always refuse autograph requests in person and through the mail.

Of those depicted here, my very first astronaut autograph was Bill Anders seen at the above top center panel of an Apollo 8 crew emblem cover with no postal cancel on it. It was gifted to me be a neighbor friend working at KSC's Flight Crew Training Building when I was 12 years old before man's first lunar orbital launch in Dec. 1968.

My first in-person autograph of the moon-orbiting Anders was on the above pictured Apollo 8 prime recovery cover ship, also crew signed, along with the crew signed famous "Earthrise" NASA photo. Both had been acquired when meeting the Apollo astronaut while witnessing a later "live" Apollo moon launch from KSC's main VIP viewing site. Note that both his signatures were penned only as "Anders." Other signature varieties during those first decades would be, "W A Anders," "Bill Anders," "W A A," and just plain "Bill," all of those authentic for this posting.

My first "in the mail" request to Gen. Anders after he had left the space agency was asking for a signed official NASA self-portrait lithograph. He signed it to me, finally, in a heavy back marker pen, "To Ken. Bill Anders" after my fifth or sixth "try" or attempt in trying to reach Mr. Anders for a successful autograph request in early 1970 when he was the executive secretary of the National Aeronautics and Space Council in Washington, D.C.

A most unusual signed Anders letter, seen above in the center installment, was written to Ed White III, the son of America's first spacewalker, in Aug. 1991 when Anders was impressed with Mr. White's newly released "Spaceshots" limited edition series of collector trading cards.

It's a fascinating letter signed "Bill" in which the LMP placed an order for 7 sets of cards and even asked if Ed White would actually "please autograph (for him) the Edward H. White II card. I'd be honored to have you do it, since I was such an admirer of your Dad for his contributions and to you for your idea. Also, my sad role in informing your mother of his untimely death is marked in my memory forever." Wow! As a return favor to Eddie, Anders even signed "Bill Anders" on one of the first Spaceshots cards of the famous "Earthrise" photo that Anders snapped as the crew first entered lunar orbit for the first time in human history. Needless to say, it's one of my all-time favorite Anders' "set" of three signatures.

Let's see and share other autograph samples, either single or crew signed by Gen. Anders, by the cS-community of family astronaut autograph collectors. If anyone would like more information of those Anders' signatures shown here, just let me know.

MartinAir
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posted 10-12-2023 03:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MartinAir   Click Here to Email MartinAir     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fantastic, thanks for sharing Ken! Have "only" this cover signed by the original Apollo 8 prime crew and by Tom Paine.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 10-13-2023 05:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The two "Bill Anders" signed covers above from postings in Ireland and from MartinAir are my best preferred autograph types of Anders. Both are also on appropriate Apollo 8 first day "Earthrise" stamp cover issues in 1969. Thanks for sharing guys!

Tom
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posted 10-13-2023 06:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Back in 2008 I had the honor of meeting the Apollo 8 crew at the 40th anniversary celebration held at the Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC. Knowing then that certain astronauts (including Bill Anders) didn't sign autographs, I was thrilled just to shake his hand as well as Commander Frank Borman.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 10-13-2023 07:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Of course, Tom, its not all about trying to get autographs in person at space events. I've met Gen. Anders beforehand during a few functions and even served as a sponsor, both private and company related, for many other event foundations, fund raisers, and other organizations since the late 1970's. During those functions, autographs are never asked for, but arrangements have been made outside of such events and in getting to know on a personal basis and work with many of our astronauts and other space pioneers, leaders, and other Space Age personalities.

Shaking the hand of someone that you have always admired and looked up to, hearing their personal stories one-on-one, spending quality time with space folks of all backgrounds, arranging private tours for, working together on various projects, and having them in your own home are forever lasting thrilling opportunities that I would have never believed possible when I was a shy speech-impaired wide-eyed space teenager.

kosmo
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posted 10-13-2023 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kosmo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A few examples of Bill Anders signature from my collection. The first one is an in person autograph that I got at the 2005 Reno Air Races. The second one is a crew signed Apollo 8 Commemorative Stamp First Day Of Issue Ceremony Program. The third is a crew signed photo from the collection of AP photographer Barry Sweet, that was acquired on the USS Yorktown, during the recovery of Apollo 8. This photo was widely used by news papers.

Bob M
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posted 10-13-2023 04:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob M   Click Here to Email Bob M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here are two more covers autographed by Bill Anders now included in this discussion.

At the top is a Space City Cover Society cover for the Apollo 8 launch and autographed by the Apollo 8 crew. The Anders autograph is a fairly standard example from this period. I have two of these Apollo 8 crew signed covers and have seen a number through the years, which may indicate that some sort of private signing took place with the Apollo 8 crew.

The other cover is an unusual example, with his autograph on a Viking-B NASA/KSC official rubber stamp cachet cover. Surely this was a blank cover when he signed, then failed to be canceled for Apollo 8, and then later canceled for Viking 2. Also it bears a less-common "William A. Anders" autograph.

I had the good fortune to meet Anders in 1999 and he kindly signed his NASA portrait photo for me. His in-person and later style autograph is shown here at the bottom of page 3.

These many and authentic examples shown here in this long discussion do indicate that there are a respectable number of Bill Anders autographs in existence, but many reside in private collections and few reach public sale.

MartinAir
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posted 10-13-2023 04:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MartinAir   Click Here to Email MartinAir     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great collections! Gen. Anders is the last Apollo astronaut still flying.

hbw60
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posted 10-13-2023 06:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hbw60   Click Here to Email hbw60     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with Tom and Ken, that a personal interaction is preferable to an autograph. I love to collect autographs, but the process of asking for one unbalances a conversation. I think that's largely why Anders considers us to be "nerds." It must be a very uncomfortable feeling to meet complete strangers who know all about you and admire you so much that they value the ink you scribble on a paper.

When admirers request an autograph, they're essentially putting that person on a pedestal, rather than engaging with them on equal footing. I attended Spacefest a few years ago, and I noticed that the more formal and respectful I was, the less an astronaut was able to have a real conversation with me. But when I was able to loosen up and just talk to them as equals, I had several conversations that I treasured far more than the autographs I left with.

So I understand why Anders would dislike autograph requests. Everyone who's met him here has said that he's a decent person in normal situations. But if one raises him up on a pedestal, I suppose he feels he has no choice but to look down on them.

However, while I understand why he'd feel that way, I wish he wouldn't be so flippant about it. When I was reading this thread, it reminded me of the book "A Reluctant Icon: Letters to Neil Armstrong." One of the letters in that book was written to Neil after he'd stopped signing, by an angry father whose son had requested an autograph. In the letter, the father talked about how happy he was that his son looked up to people like Armstrong instead of movie stars or professional athletes. And in his opinion, Neil denying his son a signature was a horrible insult that would drive his son to find new, lesser heroes.

In another letter, a young girl who got to briefly meet Neil during his world tour wrote to him and asked for his home address so that she could be pen-pals with his sons, and asked to come to his home and be permanent friends.

Letters like these really emphasize how difficult it must be to be considered an inspirational figure. The Apollo astronauts got to experience the voyage of a lifetime, but getting there required the hard work of 400,000 people, along with the financial support of every American taxpayer. That implies a heavy debt to society. To me, this is why Armstrong is the astronaut who most deserves the title of "hero." Not for being first on the Moon - it would have happened without him. Rather, for spending the remaining 43 years of his life doing his best to live up to those expectations.

He personally responded to tens of thousands of letters. He gave up opportunities for extreme wealth, power, and fame. There was a time when he was the most famous and beloved man on the planet, and he could have exploited that in so many ways. He could have been President of the United States. He could have been a billionaire. But instead he remained a quiet, simple man.

And when he finally decided to stop signing autographs, I'm sure it was incredibly difficult for him to disappoint people. Armstrong made great personal sacrifices over the course of decades, trying his best to be a good representative of the space program (and of the nation). He was grateful to the nation for the life he got to lead. And regarding his autograph, he felt that anyone who wanted one should have it, and that nobody should have to pay for it.

None of the astronauts actually owe the public anything, including Anders. But I wish Anders could have been a bit more like Armstrong in his approach to the situation. Both of them disliked signing autographs and eventually stopped doing it, but Armstrong took no pleasure in that decision. He always wanted to be polite and generous.

Armstrong hated the idea of his signature becoming a valuable monetary commodity, while Anders seems to relish it. Anders doesn't want us to have his autograph; but he very much wants us to want to have his autograph. Over the years, I'm sure he's dealt with hundreds of unpleasant people pestering him for a signature. But I'm also sure that Armstrong faced far, far more of them. And unlike Anders, he never allowed that to make him cynical toward the public in general.


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