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Author
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Topic: Signing history and experience: Bill Anders
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andrewcli
Member Posts: 328
From: La Jolla, CA, USA
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 03-23-2010 05:24 PM
   
I agree with Robert. The money is going to one of Gen. Anders' causes, the Heritage Flight Museum. He also has a private foundation supporting educational and environmental issues. This is no different than supporting organizations like the Public Broadcasting Company (PBS) - gold and platinum members. How many support this? If you look at the ASF auctions, people are paying big money for that signed earthrise and most everybody does it because it's going to a worthy cause, supporting students in their education. Sure, it's a lot of money and this is not for everyone, but for those who have the extra money, an understanding significant other, and want to have his autograph and help out a worthy cause, then it's their choice. Also, a lot of collectors have already invested a lot in this hobby, so this is nothing too extreme. To each his/her own. Sure it would be nice if Gen. Anders would charge less, or should I say the donation is smaller, so that more people would have the opportunity to participate, but that his choice. Remember, Gen. Anders said that he would charge slightly below the going price for the signed earthrise, which means you can blame those bidders for driving the price up.  |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 03-23-2010 06:50 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing against making a donation, if you support the efforts of the Heritage Flight Museum. If one believes in the work they are doing and can afford to support their efforts with a donation (in any amount), that's great!However, the question, as posed by "cddfspace," concerned the collectors point-of-view of paying $2500 to add Anders to an already multi-signed piece. From a purely collecting standpoint, unless Anders' signature was the 24th signature added to an item containing the signatures of all 24 men who have traveled to the moon, I personally wouldn't do it. To me, it sounds like cddfspace's piece will never be truly "complete" regardless if he adds Anders or not...so adding Anders' signature may only be adding marginal value to the piece. Of course, the collector must also weigh whether it adds significant aesthetic or emotional value to their piece...which is a decision each collector must make for themselves. Looking at the larger picture (beyond just a collectors point-of-view), once you add in the factor that the money goes to the museum, that might be enough extra incentive for some to take the plunge. If so, more power to them. I would just caution people to be realistic about the true value of the "thank you" signature they get in return. |
jimsz
Member Posts: 644
From:
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted 03-23-2010 07:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Nor apparently, would be the knowledge that your donation went to awarding a deserving student or helping to restore and maintain vintage air and spacecraft, or have I misunderstood?
I'm sorry, that borders on a cheap shot.Whether the check is made out to a charity or shoved into Mr. Anders pocket for himself (either is fine with me) the cost of the autograph is $2,500. Unless you are willing and planning on making a $2,500 donation to that specific non-profit without receiving the autograph the cost of the autograph is $2,500. Who the check is made out to does not matter. Charging a fee and giving it to charity is simply moving money around, If the person is not going to give the money unless they receive something in return it is truly not a donation except for tax purposes. |
HMS
Member Posts: 13
From:
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 03-23-2010 10:31 PM
I'm not a tax expert, but when you donate to a charity and receive something in return, don't you have to deduct the value of what is being received, i.e. when you receive a meal at a charity event, you must deduct the value of the meal from your "donation". What do you think the IRS would consider the value of the signed "Earthrise"? If it's $2500, would you qualify for any deduction on the $2500? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 51189
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-23-2010 11:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
However, the question, as posed by "cddfspace," concerned the collectors point-of-view of paying $2500 to add Anders to an already multi-signed piece.
In which case, it should be simple: if getting Anders' autograph makes you happy and you can afford to make the donation, then go for it. If you are asking about a return on your investment, then I would suggest you need to reevaluate if you can afford the donation. quote:
Originally posted by jimsz:
...the cost of the autograph is $2,500.
No, it is not and the proof of that is that if you make a donation of $7,500 (for example), you do not automatically receive three autographs. No retail value has been set, rather a minimum donation level has been stipulated. There is a difference.And to clarify, my response to Derek was not meant to be a cheap shot, but was intended to be critical of treating a donation like a hardship. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 03-24-2010 01:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
In which case, it should be simple: if getting Anders' autograph makes you happy and you can afford to make the donation, then go for it.
It seems clear that cddfspace was asking for opinions of other collectors on what they would do if they were in his shoes... and wasn't seeking a generic answer about the criteria for buying something.I have encountered plenty of situations where buying something would have made me happy and I could have afforded the item... but I skipped on the purchase because I didn't think the deal was good enough or I thought the purchase wasn't a wise use of my money. Quite often, I have made my final decision based on the opinions I obtained from others. |
jimsz
Member Posts: 644
From:
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted 03-24-2010 08:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
No, it is not and the proof of that is that if you make a donation of $7,500 (for example), you do not automatically receive three autographs. No retail value has been set, rather a minimum donation level has been stipulated. There is a difference.
Sure a retail price has been set. You may not receive multiple autographs for $7,500, but neither will you receive 1 autograph for a donation of $2,000. the cost has been set at least for a minimum.This is an individual giving/selling/supplying an autograph for a forced donation. If it is going to be compared to a PBS beg-a-thon donation than one has to ask is this an offer the non-profit makes in their materials to anyone or is this an offer an individual with a product people are willing to pay for using to force a donation? There is a difference. Mr. Anders can do what he wishes, charges what he wishes and donate what he wishes. It's up to the buyer to decide if it is worth it. At least see it for what it is. He is simply selling his autograph and bypassing the cashflow to send it to a specific non-profit. quote:
And to clarify, my response to Derek was not meant to be a cheap shot, but was intended to be critical of treating a donation like a hardship.
I would even go so far as if the only reason one is donating is to obtain the premium "thank you" than the set-up is a farce.Good for Mr. Anders for having a product that people are willing to pay $2,500 for even though he appears to hold collectors in near contempt. Good for he non-profit for having someone willing to redirect a money stream to their coffers. Good for those that can afford to spend $2,500 for an autograph. All around everyone should come out happy. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 51189
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-24-2010 10:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
...and wasn't seeking a generic answer about the criteria for buying something.
My honest intent was not to provide a generic answer; what I wrote is how I decide what I buy for my own collection. Though I am obviously not oblivious to the market, I try never to involve investment or resale considerations in my purchases. I just find I derive more enjoyment from my collection when it isn't viewed financially. Others may and likely do have other opinions and are encouraged to share them. That aside, in a perfect world, we'd all be giving large donations to charities we support without the enticement of something in return. But we do tend to prioritize our expenses -- even our discretionary funds. As Derek wrote, he'd be quicker to go on vacation than give $2,500 to receive an autograph. I can see why, as that fits into my "do what makes you happy" advice. I just think there's a consideration missing from his approach: giving to charity also tends to result in a happy feeling. Focusing on the autograph only may be losing sight of the larger impact of the money spent. |
cddfspace
Member Posts: 635
From: Morris County, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 03-24-2010 11:01 AM
Here is the Apollo Emblem litho I was referring to. Thanks to everyone for your insights. I know there are many different angles to this discussion. I was honestly looking for advice on "What would you do from a collectors perspective." I appreciate the feedback both on this forum and off line. I also realize that, ultimately, this is a decision that every individual has to make for themselves. In any case, I hope you enjoy the scan. I have all missions represented, seven moonwalkers, three complete missions, 15 who have circled the moon. To Anders or not to Anders... that is the question!  |
Tyrell's Owl
Member Posts: 95
From: Hertfordshire, England
Registered: Feb 2008
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posted 03-24-2010 11:25 AM
Wow, what a great piece! Thanks for sharing it with us. I can see a lot of effort has gone into this (obviously) much loved item. I wouldn't like to say either way regarding Bill Anders other than "Those who can will and the rest of us can't!" Can I put a question out there... What do other collectors think the value of this item is now - and what would it be after Bill Anders was added? I know it isn't about money, but I would be really interested to know just how much an item like that would be worth. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 03-24-2010 11:28 AM
...Indeed, that multi-signed emblem is a familiar sight here at Astronaut Central.To bring up another point; I think Anders has sabotaged himself by playing cruel games with his signature style. Instant Karma. |
andrewcli
Member Posts: 328
From: La Jolla, CA, USA
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 03-24-2010 12:17 PM
Honestly, I don't think this will increase the value that much.I can see a complete item would increase in value with Anders' signature. From the last Regency stamp auction there were two items that went unsold that are now relisted. I called regarding their BIN and they stated that the price was $2,000 - no takers. They now lowered their minimum to $1,000. So we shall see in a few weeks. BTW - I think I 'm going for it - after this round of upcoming auctions. Kim, don't get too upset with me when I send it in for the Schmitt signing ;-) |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 03-24-2010 01:42 PM
That is indeed a nice multi-signed piece! I'm sure it has more personal value than market value, if you've gone to the effort to compile the signatures yourself (with the help of some dealers). (It's a little off-topic, but I'm curious if the astros who signed twice...Scott, Cernan, Young, Lovell...charged you twice for their efforts? Or were the extra signatures provided for a nominal add-on fee to the first signature?) Regarding adding Anders, I personally wouldn't do it...as it's already a nice item without his signature and you'll never be able to fully "complete" this item. But if you are still strongly considering it (and who could blame you?), you will want to clarify a couple of things first before proceeding: - Will Anders sign this item for a $2500 donation, considering it creates an Apollo 8 completion and is a multi-signed item...or will that require a larger donation?
- Will Anders require a personalization on the item? To date, I don't think I've seen any of the "thank you" signatures without a personalization. Since the rest of the piece contains unpersonalized signatures, I presume you may want to keep it that way.
Whatever you decide to do, good luck! |
machbusterman
Member Posts: 1803
From: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
Registered: May 2004
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posted 03-24-2010 03:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Nor apparently, would be the knowledge that your donation went to awarding a deserving student or helping to restore and maintain vintage air and spacecraft, or have I misunderstood?
You definitely picked me up wrong there Robert. If I were to contribute to an aerospace related charity it would either be the ASF (as I have done so through various methods over the last six years) or the Flight Test Historical Foundation. It does make me feel good when I know my donation has helped towards a scholarship or to help preserve flight test history. I personally don't think the required "donation" of $2,500 in order to be granted a signature by General Anders can be justified in value for money terms. Its like on the Chuck Yeager website where for $5,000 donation you will receive a signed mahogany 1/32 scale Bell X-1 model... it just does not represent any value for money as far as I'm concerned. As for your multi-signed piece Dennis... it is AWESOME but if it were me I'd keep my check-book in my pocket. The added value of Anders to that piece would be lucky if the value increased by $300-$500 as a conservative guess. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3207
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 03-24-2010 05:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cddfspace:
I know when you assemble a multi-signed piece, from a value perspective, you usually spend more then you would ever hope to recoup if sold (I am in it for the collection value, not the resale value)....From a collector's perspective (assuming that $2500 IS a lot of money, but could be paid at the sacrifice of purchasing other collectables), would you get Anders to sign, or feel comfortable in the fact that this is a pretty good piece even without Anders' signature.
As you say pieces like this cost far more to put together than their resale value. I never did understand extra fees for multi signed items as invariably each added signature on items like this is worth nowhere near as much as you pay. If anything there should be a multi signed item discount.In any case in purely monetary terms I think Anders signature on this piece would boost its value by maybe $150-300, not much more. Personally although I can see the appeal of a signed Earthrise photo I would take the $2,500 and buy a flag that was actually carried on Man's first flight to the moon instead. Texas state flags flown on Apollo 8 from Lovell's collection have sold at just a little over $2,500 in the last few Heritage auctions, and in their upcoming auction there's several flags from the flight up for grabs. |
cddfspace
Member Posts: 635
From: Morris County, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 03-24-2010 08:56 PM
Thanks for the kind words on the piece. To answer a few questions... I started it three years ago.First off, a special thanks to Kim from Novaspace - as he eluded to, he has assisted with six or seven of the signatures. Pricing... some astronauts charged full price for signing twice, some offered a break. Seven signatures were no charge (one astronaut commented he wished he would have done this when everyone was still around to sign). One astronaut aided with four signatures of other astronauts. How much did I pay for all of them? Honestly, I am afraid to add it up! Hopefully, my two kids will fight over it one day (to keep, not to sell). |
SpaceSteve
Member Posts: 442
From: San Antonio TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 03-24-2010 09:26 PM
First off, I have to say that multi-signed patch display is absolutely beautiful... it is obviously a labor of love!Now about getting Gen Anders' signature on it? Personally, I wouldn't at his current price. Since the piece is missing 11 signatures, and 8 of them are now impossible to obtain on it, there is no way for it's completion. IF it had ALL the astronauts on it, I would seriously consider trying to have Anders sign it. As it stands, Gen Anders' signature is just one more of the missing, and it doesn't stand out as a "sore thumb". |
andrewcli
Member Posts: 328
From: La Jolla, CA, USA
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 03-25-2010 01:25 PM
A couple of people asked me to post a scan of my poster. Here it is - So if Gen. Anders would write, "We'll see you on the other side," I will probably go for it and spend the money. I would also like to get: - No flowers in bloom in Houston, Apollo 13. Thomas K. Mattingly, Apollo 16 CMP, "Casper" in reference to his measles exposure.
- "I was strolling on the moon one day....." Harrison H. Schmitt, Apollo XVII LMP, "Challenger"
- "Beep, Beep!" Joe Engle, Apollo 14, BULMP
I even have one for the big man himself - I can always dream. |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1527
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 03-25-2010 03:59 PM
Great item, Andrew! I love the inscriptions!The personalizations on there bring up another question about Anders' signing policy: the only items I've seen attributed to being "thank you's" for the donations have all been personalized. Some people believe that would seriously detract from the value of their item, if Anders alone personalized and no one else did. It would be consistent with his stance on opposing signing because people were reselling his autographs. If the collector donor was only keeping the item for himself or herself, then they might be expected to welcome the personalization. It's primarily the people who are thinking of eventually reselling that would be most upset if the signature was personalized. And that would prove Anders' point. |
andrewcli
Member Posts: 328
From: La Jolla, CA, USA
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 03-25-2010 04:14 PM
Jonathan, you saw me with it at Spacefest 2009. There are some very funny anecdotes to some of the signings. I am very grateful to the gang at Novaspace, ASF, and the astronauts themselves in accommodating my requests, even if some were out of the ordinary, but hey it's a hobby and it's not supposed to be serious.Indeed this is truly a labor of love and it's not even finished. Like I said, I plan to frame it with all of the vintage crew patches that I have and the Apollo 11's plaque. I even have a vintage snoopy patch that I would apply next to Gene Cernan's quote. If Gen Anders were to only sign his name, I would probably not do it. I already have his autograph on a cover that belonged to Dr. Radnosfsky, who started the MSC stamp club. Hopefully he would realize that this is not going to be resold and that this is a expression of my tribute to this amazing adventure that will not be outdone in the near future. |
SpaceSteve
Member Posts: 442
From: San Antonio TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 03-25-2010 05:08 PM
I love that poster Andrew, particularly how Aldrin signed it and then Collins answered him.  Any particular reason Fred Haise signed it twice? |
andrewcli
Member Posts: 328
From: La Jolla, CA, USA
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 03-25-2010 05:40 PM
I wanted to get a 2-fer from him. Actually, before I asked him if he could write something, he was already signing his name to it. Doh! I said no problem, he smiled and wrote what I had written on a piece of paper. A really nice guy! With regards to Col. Aldrin, Gerry was working with him and he asked me - you want him to write this upside down? Got the same response from others including the astronauts. I said that it was all relative. With Gen. Collins, he was very kind enough to write this for me at his private signing at Novaspace, a few months before Spacefest 2009, even though Rob said there was no way he would do it. I said, hey it's worth a try. Rob was shocked when he saw it. When I saw Gen. Collins at Spacefest, I personally thanked him for the inscription. Mrs. Collins said he chuckled when he read Buzz's inscription. She then asked me, "You still have it right?" Another great couple and a man with a great sense of humor! |
Paul23
Member Posts: 836
From: South East, UK
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 03-26-2010 03:51 AM
That poster is amazing! |
dtemple
Member Posts: 775
From: Longview, Texas, USA
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 04-11-2010 10:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
Somewhere along the line, he appears to have developed a bad attitude towards the hobby and collectors... and that if one recognizes Anders in a crowd and approaches him for an autograph, he'll think of them as a "nerd" (a term he used in his JSC oral history).
I wonder if his opinion changes away from "nerd" for $2500. We collectSPACE members are nerds unless we are willing to part with $2500 for his signature or perhaps even then the one who pays that is an even greater nerd. That is very classy. |
DChudwin
Member Posts: 1121
From: Lincolnshire IL USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 04-14-2010 02:53 PM
I bumped into Bill Anders again last night at the Apollo 13 40th Anniversary dinner at the Adler Planetarium. We continued our friendly discussion about his autograph policy. He insists on his $2,500 price for a signature, suggesting that the sum is really a charitable donation to the Heritage Flight Museum with the autograph thrown in on the side. I mentioned that many of us cannot afford that big a charitable donation. He responded I should get a John Young autograph then (I had mentioned John Young's $495 fee to him in an earlier letter). I said I had. Gen. Anders told me that he had received a catalogue for the Regency-Superior auction and was looking for a Yuri Gagarin autographed item, but was suspicious about some of the lots. We talked about fake signatures on the market and he asserted that he did not sign at least one of the Apollo 8 items in the Regency-Superior auction. As before, Gen. Anders was friendly but not ready to change his mind about his fees.
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jimsz
Member Posts: 644
From:
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted 04-14-2010 03:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DChudwin:
He insists on his $2,500 price for a signature, suggesting that the sum is really a charitable donation to the Heritage Flight Museum with the autograph thrown in on the side.
I wonder if the IRS would consider that a charitable donation. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 04-15-2010 09:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by DChudwin:
Gen. Anders told me that he had received a catalogue for the Regency-Superior auction and was looking for a Yuri Gagarin autographed item, but was suspicious about some of the lots.
He's not alone in his suspicions. |
Paul23
Member Posts: 836
From: South East, UK
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 04-15-2010 09:34 AM
Assuming he is after a Yuri Gagarin item for himself, is there a particular irony that someone who isn't the easiest to obtain a signature from is a closet autograph hunter himself?! |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 51189
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-15-2010 09:43 AM
You're assuming the autograph is for himself and not for his museum or some other entity he supports. |
Paul23
Member Posts: 836
From: South East, UK
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 04-15-2010 09:51 AM
I was only messing about, it would just be amusing to think of all these astronauts having their own private signing shows for each other! |
DChudwin
Member Posts: 1121
From: Lincolnshire IL USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 04-15-2010 12:31 PM
I apologize for not being clearer-- Gen. Anders was interested in the Yuri Gagarin item specifically for the museum and not for himself personally. |
Paul23
Member Posts: 836
From: South East, UK
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 04-15-2010 04:18 PM
No apology necessary from my point of view, my comment was only intended as a light hearted one! |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 04-15-2010 04:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DChudwin:
Gen. Anders was interested in the Yuri Gagarin item specifically for the museum and not for himself personally.
I'm sure a few cSers might be willing to arrange a trade with the General. |
jamato99
Member Posts: 150
From: Leesburg, VA USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 04-16-2010 09:19 AM
As ilbasso posted on a different thread, Bill Anders walked out the front door of the National Air and Space Museum yesterday at around 6:15 p.m. He passed by the 50-60 of us who were waiting for the doors to open for the Apollo 13 lecture. Of those in line, maybe 3 or 4 recognized him.That's about as good a sampling as I could have asked for and it really opened my eyes to this entire discussion. I'd say most if not all of the people in line were "in the know" when it comes to the early space program. I was pretty surprised to see Anders walk past all those people and that barely anybody noticed. The first thought that came to my mind was: "This guy charges $2,500 for an autograph?" It made me think that only the true Anders/Apollo fans want his autograph enough to pay that much for it, and it's sad that he sticks it to them knowing that at least some are willing to pay whatever he charges. |
kosmo
Member Posts: 523
From:
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 04-16-2010 09:41 AM
Okay, while this may not be the best thing to get an autograph on, at the 2006 Reno Air Races, Mr. Anders posed for a photo and autographed a ticket for me, its one of my pride and joys!! 
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ilbasso
Member Posts: 1527
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 04-16-2010 11:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jamato99:
As ilbasso posted on a different thread, Bill Anders walked out the front door of the National Air and Space Museum yesterday at around 6:15 p.m.
He patted me on the shoulder when I said hi to him. I was wearing an STS-130 shirt, which I'm never washing again! I'm sure you could lift Anders' fingerprints off that shirt. I'll let it go to a lucky buyer for only $2000. (The astronaut's fingerprints - what better provenance could you want??) |
stsmithva
Member Posts: 2088
From: Fairfax, VA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 04-16-2010 01:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kosmo:
Okay, while this may not be the best thing to get an autograph on,
In-person on a ticket for an interesting event, with a couple of good pictures - it's the ideal thing to get an autograph on! Nice display. |
Bob M
Member Posts: 1874
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 04-16-2010 02:42 PM
Besides being autograph-friendly at the Reno Air Races in 2006, Gen. Anders also made himself available for autographs at the Gathering of Mustangs and Legends P-51 aircraft fly-in on April 10, 1999 at the Kissimmee, FL airport. The detail below shows his fairly well-applied autograph that he kindly applied to his portrait litho I brought to the event.Other space-aviation buffs were there and also came away with very desirable in-person autographs from Anders that day.  It's very possible that Gen. Anders would not make himself available for autographs now as he has sometimes in the past, especially considering his very high charge for his autograph now. |
Aztecdoug
Member Posts: 1405
From: Huntington Beach
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 04-16-2010 03:33 PM
I met Gen Anders back in 2004 before a public event and he kindly signed an Apollo 8 crew litho completion for me. He used a writing style identical to that shown by Bob above. I will add that after the event he signed a few things while still on the stage for guests, but then he did a Scooby Doo Elvis has left the building exit. He was gone in the blink of an eye! |
kosmo
Member Posts: 523
From:
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted 04-16-2010 04:06 PM
To me the style of writing on Bob M's piece is an atypical autograph (his I'm annoyed, PO'd) but what do I know, I'm still learning. |
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