posted 06-07-2005 07:56 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Astro Bill:
So Armstrong is not mentioned in recent history books

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quote:

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But Armstrong was chosen by fate to be first. Why is that exceptional?

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Further, the Apollo 11 crew (and astronauts in general) knowingly risked their lives for the betterment of mankind; Lincoln had no expectations of being assassinated at the theater. Justifying Lincoln's greatness by the way he died, is to suggest the merit of his life's accomplishments were only validated by his being shot.

Should Aldrin have been on the list as well? Yes, but he wasn't. Neither were countless other great Americans. Negating Armstrong as a choice because others like him were left out fails to recognize the significance of the first moonwalker's inclusion.

This was more or less (more more than less) a celebrity publicity contest. The fact that Armstrong received enough votes to put him in the top 25 demonstrates that he is remembered.

Like all publicity contests though, the winner is rarely the one that deserves it most: its the person who has the greatest fan club. Perhaps its the space activist within me, but if I was interested in keeping the public thinking space is important to their lives, I would be throwing every vote I have towards Armstrong. As I stated earlier, if he were voted #1, it would send a powerful message.

posted 06-07-2005 09:29 PM               

I disagree with almost everything that you said in your latest posting, except that you have some inclination to push the space program in every way that you can. You also did not interpret my posting as I intended it to be interpreted and your last comment is beyond understanding because you contradict yourself in it? I will write a longer reply after I finish watching "Mars Rocks - One Year Later" on the Science Channel.

posted 06-07-2005 09:51 PM               

However, I contend if Armstrong wins, it could change (or at least remind) a few minds that space exploration is important to our lives and future. Do I expect there to be an outcry for manned mission to Mars as a result? No, of course not. But the headlines: "Neil Armstrong Voted Greatest American" would force anyone reading them to remember the space program, acknowledge its place in our society and maybe, just maybe, convince a slim few to take an interest in what happens next.

posted 06-07-2005 10:35 PM               

I disagree with almost everything that you said in your latest posting, except that you have some inclination to push the space program in every way that you can.

Astro Bill disagrees with Robert!!?? Stop the presses!!

posted 06-07-2005 11:37 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
I'll clarify my closing comment: suppose Lincoln wins - whatever publicity the announcement of his being the Greatest American generates won't strengthen the need to ban slavery or reunite the union. That's not to belittle Lincoln's accomplishments, they were incredibly important for his time and ours.

However, I contend if Armstrong wins, it could change (or at least remind) a few minds that space exploration is important to our lives and future. Do I expect there to be an outcry for manned mission to Mars as a result? No, of course not. But the headlines: "Neil Armstrong Voted Greatest American" would force anyone reading them to remember the space program, acknowledge its place in our society and maybe, just maybe, convince a slim few to take an interest in what happens next.

To me, that's worth trying to influence the outcome of a popularity contest.

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Robert -

Thanks for the clarification. Now I know what you mean. Your statement is no longer contradictory to me, but I still disagree with your premise. But this is only a silly contest and I am taking it much too seriously. Like you said, it is meant to fill our summer days before the major movie releases.

But it did one thing that perhaps the organizers did not intend. It caused people to think about the people who founded and moulded our country and continued to make it much better over the years. The nominees are from many generations and decades. They are from many different occupations and foster many different beliefs in how this country should proceed.

With this posting I do not expect to change any minds to vote for Lincoln instead of Armstrong. I wish only to clarify my previous comments which you have misinterpreted.

By "fate" determining Armstrong's first walk on the Moon I meant "luck" or "chance". It was only luck or chance or fate that Armstrong was first out of the LM because he was closer to the door (I presume), unless he climbed over Aldrin to be first out the door. He was first to walk on the moon because of his location in the LM. I am sure that NASA planned it this way, so perhaps it was not fate, it may have been by choice, but the choice was between two equal men. I see no difference between Armstrong and Aldrin. Armstrong was first by "chance" (or whatever you want to call it). That is why I said "Why is that exceptional." Armstrong was not more exceptional in this mission than Aldrin. He was one of TWO people who landed at the same time on the Moon. We are only talking about a few minutes between Armstrong and Aldrin on the Moon. Is that exceptional? No! There has still been no answer on this message board to my question of how much time separated Armstrong's moonwalk from Aldrin's. Was it minutes or an hour? In any event, they were equally competent for their task. I admire THEIR bravery and THEIR intelligence and THEIR ability to accomplish this mission. But they were together. I did not mean that "fate" got them to the Moon. I know that it was their ability and their training and the ability of thousands of NASA engineers that got them there. I did not say that they did not work hard to accomplish their mission. By "fate" (chance or luck) I was only referring to ARMSTRONG being the first on the Moon only minutes before Aldrin.

I disagree with your premise that if Armstrong is chosen as the "Greatest American" that people will consider Armstrong as a representative of the space program. I do not see that. If he wins (and with your help he may) I believe that people will say, "My God, the Greatest American is alive and he lives in Ohio." I do not think that Americans will see Armstrong as a representative of ALL astronauts any more than they would consider Lincoln or Washington or even Bush as representing ALL Presidents.

Also, I did not wish to imply that Helen was "endorsing" the fact that Armstrong was not mentioned in HER history book. She only MENTIONED that fact to support my original premise that Armstrong, while a very brave and competent astronaut, MAY not appear in history books in the future, at least not as much as Lincoln (who occupies at least a chapter in ALL American history books). How could Armstrong, whose ONLY claim to FAME is the few minutes that he spent on the Moon alone before Aldrin joined him, be considered any MORE exceptional than Aldrin? He is NOT exceptional in my mind. I repeat, he is just as brave and just as intelligent as all astronauts, but he is not exceptional. I expect that you will read this and misinterpret this as an attack on Armstrong, but it is not. He is a great person, but I am in awe of ALL astronauts.

This posting is becoming very long but I have one more comment. I in no way suggested that Lincoln's greatness was justified or vindicated by the manner of his death. This comment was a serious misinterpretation of my comment that he had principles and that he died for them. Even if he had died naturally, he still would have been a great President and a "savior" of the Union and of the United States. Yes he freed the slaves and saved the Union. This country is much different today because of Abraham Lincoln. He knew that he had many enemies but he continued to foster his beliefs in the Union and in freedom and equality for everyone.

We have forgotten this and we have forgotten most of the contributions by hundreds of capable, intelligent, devoted and exceptional men and women who made this country what it is today. This contest has reminded us of their dedication. For that reason the contest is a success even before a final "Greatest American" is chosen.

posted 06-07-2005 11:40 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by John K. Rochester:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Astro Bill:
[B]Robert,

I disagree with almost everything that you said in your latest posting, except that you have some inclination to push the space program in every way that you can.

Astro Bill disagrees with Robert!!?? Stop the presses!!

[This message has been edited by John K. Rochester (edited June 07, 2005).]

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posted 06-07-2005 11:46 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Astro Bill:
Dear Rodrigo -

I cannot tell if you are serious about the comments that you made or if you are trying to get a reaction to some of your ill-conceived comments. Did you place a funny face at the end of your comments to say that you were not serious about the entire posting or just the last comment?

On the chance that you are serious about some of your comments, I will reply. I recall seeing Rev. Martin Luther King on TV many times in the 60's. He was not just "running around" as your stated. He saw a problem with segregation and he chose to protest it and correct it. He personally risked his life many times in protests and he served time in jail because of his beliefs. He was assassinated in 1968 shortly before Robert Kennedy was assassinated. He is now honored with a natioinal holiday every year in the US and his ideals and memory still live in everyone who believes as he did. There may still be some problems with racism, but segregation as a policy has been ended because of what he did.

Your comment that the possible nomination of the "American Soldier" as the Greatest American is lame, shows that you have no idea of the contribution that they all have made for our country AND for the world.

The problem with this "contest" is that there are too many good choices for the Greatest American.

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Just the last comment. I see your points of view too and I agree with some. I just saw Martin Luther King's name in an earlier post and decided to bring it up and say that I don't think he should win, but that's just my point of view. Muhammad Ali protested the Vietnam War and did not go. His title was revoked and a lot of people wanted his head on a stick because of it. AS for the 'American Soldier' comment, we all know that if that is a winner (just saying if), it would just be because of the current state of the country. If this 'Greatest American' thing was run in the early 1990s, the soldier would be nowhere near the list.

Armstrong and Glenn probably haven't done much either (come on, Armstrong wasn't chosen to be the first, it was all because of the rotation), so they probably won't make the cut.

Yes, the problem is that there are too many great choices. I don't think there is one person that stands out, maybe not even 10!
-Rodrigo

posted 06-08-2005 12:27 AM               

Thanks for your reply. I do not mean to be disagreeable and I respect your comments. I recall Martin Luther King, as I mentioned, only from TV news. He always impressed me as a person who was dedicated to his belief in the equality of man. He worked exceedingly hard to promote his beliefs and participated in many protests which put him in personal danger.

It was a time of much turmoil in the United States as we moved from the segregation of the past to a future of equality for all Americans. This passage was not without much bloodshed. Martin Luther King did not shrink from his beliefs to protect his life, as many of his supporters did after his murder. He held his ground and with the loudest voice that he had he shouted "Freedom at last" and "We will overcome." He was supported by John and Robert Kennedy. But they could not protect him all the time. His death, while extremely tragic, led to the Civil Rights Bill which struck down segregation laws. He had won, but at what cost? This is the kind of people who made our country what it is.

The "American Soldier" was not on the original list of 100 great Americans. Perhaps they should have been included, but this contest is for individuals. I do not believe that Eisenhower or McArthur or Patton would have represented ALL service men any more than Armstrong represets all astronauts.

The American Soldier has for over 200 years protected the United States from forces that would destroy it. I agree that it is more apparent today than it was perhaps a decade ago. But they have ALWAYS done the job. It is only that recent developments have made us able to see a new enemy, which may have been there all along without our direct knowledge. The modern US soldier must protect us from an enemy that lives in caves and attacks at night in the dark, like a coward, killing their own countrymen.

Somehow, the American Soldier is up to the task, which seems impossible. They are doing it with devotion, bravery and training. If they were on the list, I would vote for THEM. With the 25 finalists that we have, I have chosen President Lincoln as the Greatest American in my opinion.

posted 06-08-2005 01:19 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Just a thought: Someday, hopefully, the Greatest American will be the individual who joins with the Greatest German, Greatest Canadian, Greatest Russian and all the other Greatest in the world to put all soldiers, American or otherwise, out of a job.

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posted 06-08-2005 02:21 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Astro Bill:
I am entitled to disagree - am I not?

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You always do..... and as Seinfeld says " not that there's anything wrong with that"

posted 06-08-2005 02:34 PM               

Actually Ali didn't protest the war per se..

Ali failed the test that places you in a draft category, and was classified 4F.. the Louisville draft board reclassified him under pressure to the highest eligibility status. He was at that time a minster for the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and refused to go to war based on his religious beliefs.. " I ain't got no quarrel with them Vietcong.." Yes, he was convicted by a court of law for draft evasion ( although many other ministers and reverends of other faiths were not even put through such a process..go figure!!) but the Supreme Court of the United States overturned the conviction based on the evidence presented, and as we all know he went on to become the first to regain the Heavyweight title three times.

posted 06-08-2005 08:02 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Just a thought: Someday, hopefully, the Greatest American will be the individual who joins with the Greatest German, Greatest Canadian, Greatest Russian and all the other Greatest in the world to put all soldiers, American or otherwise, out of a job.

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... and a very good thought it is ...

posted 06-19-2005 08:11 PM               

Of the 25 left two weeks ago, Armstrong was...25 out of 25.

posted 06-19-2005 08:21 PM               

Benjamin Franklin
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Abraham Lincoln
Ronald Reagan
George Washington

Just stated on the show...
B. Franklin just barely beat out George W. Bush

And there's a big stink about Washington
having slaves...

[This message has been edited by Rob Joyner (edited June 19, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Rob Joyner (edited June 19, 2005).]

posted 06-20-2005 10:19 PM               

Franklin was obviously brilliant but he was a hardcore anti-semite, so he lost my vote there. He campaigned Congress to have all the Jews thrown out of America and wrote scathing essays against Jews and other ethnic groups. He was instrumental in preventing Jews from attending any major university.

Reagan freed the world from the disease of communism, rebuilt our military, rebuilt our economy after Jimmy Carter left it in shambles. Does anyone remember 20% interest rates to buy a house in 1977-79? I do. Carter was a nice guy, but one of the worst presidents in the history of this country.

Washington owned slaves, big deal, everyone who farmed or had land owned slaves. Washington educated his slaves, treated them very well and his slaves lived a great life compared to the slaves of the south. Jefferson also educated his slaves and treated them very well.

Side note, Jefferson knew the slaves would never be able to integrate into society because they were intentionally not being educated. Jefferson tried to pass a law to ban slavery and to return all slaves back to Africa. The law missed being passed by 1 vote when a senator who would have voted with Jefferson was sick and couldn't attend the session.

MLK, I don't understand why he's included on this list, towards the mid-late 60's, he was a mouthpiece for the Nation of Islam, which we all know is THE most evil and threatening organization facing the USA today.

How in God's name FDR was not among the final 5, is just another indication of the stupidity of the people who voted. He wasn't brilliant, but he was smart, he deeply cared for this country and it's citizens. He accomplished so many great things through some of the worst times this country's been through. It's unfathomable that he's been voted off.

posted 06-20-2005 10:59 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Spacepsycho:
Franklin was obviously brilliant but he was a hardcore anti-semite, so he lost my vote there.

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posted 06-20-2005 11:13 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Spacepsycho:
MLK, I don't understand why he's included on this list, towards the mid-late 60's, he was a mouthpiece for the Nation of Islam, which we all know is THE most evil and threatening organization facing the USA today.

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I haven't been able to find any reference of MLK, Jr. being associated with the NOI. Malcom X (aka Malcolm Little) is probably the most notable of the NOI leaders. MLK, Jr. was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize and promoted a message of tolerance and acceptance of all.

posted 06-21-2005 12:39 AM               

I'll defer to you on the Ben Franklin issue because you have clear evidence that the statements attributed to him were lies.

However, it is a fact that the Nation of Islam is a clear & present danger to this country and many professional law enforcement people believe that they are on par with Bin Laden's social club.

If you notice when MLK is giving his famous "I have a dream" speech at the DC Mall, take a look at all the NOI's standing behind him. His entourage was made up of 50%+ NOI folks and don't think that the NOI's of MLK's day are the same as today.

If you've read the Koran, and yes I have when I lived in Egypt, it tells the believers of Islam that when they're in a foreign country, they will preach peace, tolerance, love and acceptance of other peoples. HOWEVER, the Koran states very clearly that when the believers of Islam become the majority, then Allah's will be done. Then the Islamic laws will take the place of current infidels law and if the non-believers don't obey Allah's words, then they will be killed.

The NOI is notorious for recruiting members from prison, they talk a good game, they look clean & articulate, but if they ever came to power, this country would look like all of the hardcore Islamic countries. Islamic law applies to Islamic believers and if you're not a muslim, then as an infidel, the wonderful & kind Islamic law is no longer applicable to you. The fact is that if Islam is followed like we follow the bible, it is used to keep people uneducated, poor and indebted to the religious leaders.

Having been in many muslim countries, I've never had a problem, even walking around at 2AM, whereas in any major city in the US, I carry a gun. I've met some of the most gracious and wonderful people in the poorest muslim countries who've offered their last scrap of food to a stranger. But the fact remains, Islam is not the kinder & gentler religion that it's made out to be.

posted 06-21-2005 07:45 AM               

Regarding MLK and the NOI, I was very close to the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950's and 1960's and was at the MLK "I Have Aa Dream" Speech at Lincoln memorial in 1964 ( and what a moment that was).

I would not characterize MLK as being associated with Malcolm X, Elijah Mohammed, etc.

posted 06-24-2005 09:36 AM               

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Originally posted by Wehaveliftoff:
Neil Ag had the fewest votes of the top 25, embarassing. In the world of publicity even bad publicity is good publicity. Rightfully, the Wright Brothers had more votes than he, finishing 23. Elvis infinitely came closer to the top 5 with the 8th postion. The show even thought he might sneak in the top 5 since they had two commentators on the show whom they briefly interviewed about the man who disliked being called the King (he frequently corrected the person by saying only God was the true King.) Yet the publicity from being mentioned in the top 100 should further the publicity campaign, coupled with the lock of hair story, to spur sales of the Biography to be released soon.
My vote this Father's Day weekend went to the father of our country, George Washington.

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Dear Wehaveliftoff:

Neil Armstrong was in the top 25 Greatest Americans. That is nothing to be "embarassed" about. He was the only representative of the Space Program on the list. I think that placing in the top 25 was a great achievement. He beat out most US Presidents and many other politicians, sports stars, movie stars, statesmen, military leaders, Olympians, inventors, etc. Many of those who did not make the top 25 Greatest Americans accomplished a great deal more than Neil Armstrong.

For instance, he beat Charles Lindbergh. Lindbergh's solo flight across the Atlantic was a great achievement. It was a solo accomplishment. Many aviators had died trying to be the first to cross the Atlantic. Lindbergh accomplished this record setting achievement at considerable risk to his life. He was the "Lone Eagle."

Armstrong was accompanied by Buzz Aldrin. He was not alone. They BOTH landed on the Moon at the same time. Neil Armstrong's only singular achievement was that he was the first human to actually place his footprint on the Moon. That is all. He was followed soon after by Buzz Aldrin, who did the same thing. This is not to say that they did not risk their lives landing on the Moon. But they had the entire NASA team behind them and many Apollo experimental missions preceded Apollo XI. It was a major accomplishment "for all mankind."

Therefore, IMHO Neil Armstrong should be greatly honored to be selected by Americans as one of the Top 25 Greatest Americans. He was one of eight LIVING Americans to be placed on the list of the Top 25 Greatest Americans of all time. That is, 32% of the Top 25 Greatest Americans of all time are LIVING Americans. IMHO that is a matter of "human nature" that the voters chose to select someone who is LIVING as their Greatest American. It also shows a lack of general knowledge of American History.

IMHO living Americans should not have been included in the voting for the Greatest American. That would have eliminated Oprah Winfrey, Lance Armstrong, Pres. Bush, Pres. Clinton, Bill Gates,Neil Armstrong, Billy Graham, and Mohammad Ali and would have made room for other Greatest Americans who are no longer living. A look at the list of Top 100 Greatest Americans would show you who was eliminated.

One of the accomplishments of this "contest" is that it caused, even encouraged, Americans to discuss the relative achievements of Great Americans. It caused us to compare their achievements and even their personal lives. Two of the five finalists are already on Mt. Rushmore. There is some talk of adding President Reagan to this monument to great Americans, but this will not happen for many generations - and - it may be impossible to do anyway.

posted 06-27-2005 06:34 PM               

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Originally posted by MrSpace86:
The whole program and countdown was a spoof and load of nonsense. Reagan #1? George W. Bush in the top 10? I mean, come on. I'm still glad Glenn and Armstrong were though, but if experts would have ranked the list instead of voting, the countdown would have looked totally different.
-Rodrigo

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Hi Rodrigo:

I agree. I was very surprised that President Reagan was selected as the Greatest American. Yes, he was a great president and he was INSTRUMENTAL in ending the Cold War. But was he greater than President Lincoln or President Washington? I do not think so. I think that even the moderator was shocked by the results.

Lincoln led this country through a Civil War and he kept the Union together and this enabled the US to be the strong country that we are today. If the Union had been disolved, the individual states would have been free to form alliances with foreign countried and today we would have a situation like Europe.

Washington led us through a REVOLUTION against England and we survived because of his vision and determination.

posted 06-27-2005 06:54 PM               

I think this was one of Discovery Channel's biggest flubs.