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  Heritage October 2008 space auction (Page 1)

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Author Topic:   Heritage October 2008 space auction
Robert Pearlman
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posted 08-22-2008 12:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
2008 October Signature Space Exploration Auction
Dallas, Texas, Auction #6007

Bidding Begins: Approx. September 18, 2008
Auction Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008

A fabulous selection of space memorabilia, from autographs to items taken onto the surface of the moon. Many of our nation's best-loved astronauts have consigned material from their personal collections including Gene Cernan, Edgar Mitchell, Charlie Duke, James Lovell, and Paul Weitz.
A preview catalog of over 170 of the lots, including astronaut adventures benefiting the Astronaut Scholarship Foundation and the first flown artifacts to be consigned by James Lovell is now online.

mikeh
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posted 08-22-2008 08:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mikeh   Click Here to Email mikeh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very nice. Some very cool flown items - especially from Lovell, Aldrin & Cernan!

Who is doing the signature authentication for them? Any red flags?

- mikeh

Scott
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posted 08-23-2008 01:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Heritage's space autographs (from their first space auction through the upcoming one) have been screened for Heritage by me.

Scott

mikeh
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posted 08-23-2008 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mikeh   Click Here to Email mikeh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Scott. That is EXCELLENT news for anyone considering bidding!

space1
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posted 08-24-2008 06:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for space1   Click Here to Email space1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some very nice items indeed.

I have to say that I am surprised about Jim Lovell's Apollo 13 flashlight. In another lot we see Lovell's Apollo 8 flashlight, with machined brass and part and serial numbers engraved. But the Apollo 13 flashlight, although similar in appearance, is made of plastic and has the part number on a paper label.

The brass flashlight is the type we have always seen associated with Apollo. I am the first to admit I don't know everything about Apollo, and I welcome the opportunity to learn more, but a plastic flashlight with a paper label seems more likely to be a flown artifact from the Apollo 13 movie rather than the Apollo 13 mission.

------------------
John Fongheiser
President
Historic Space Systems, http://www.space1.com

lm5eagle
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posted 08-24-2008 09:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lm5eagle   Click Here to Email lm5eagle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scott:
Heritage's space autographs (from their first space auction through the upcoming one) have been screened for Heritage by me.
Scott, its good to hear that your expertise is being deployed to advantage. A lot of people are going to feel more at ease in placing bids in this auction.

Andy

bunnkwio
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posted 08-24-2008 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bunnkwio   Click Here to Email bunnkwio     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've dealt with Heritage in terms of sports items, and I believe they are up there in the ranks of Sotheby's and Christies in reputation.

After skimming through the space auction listings, I had to wipe off the drool. Now I just need to win the lottery so I can get the betacloth transfer bag.

lunareagle
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posted 08-24-2008 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lunareagle   Click Here to Email lunareagle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by space1:
I am the first to admit I don't know everything about Apollo, and I welcome the opportunity to learn more, but a plastic flashlight with a paper label seems more likely to be a flown artifact from the Apollo 13 movie rather than the Apollo 13 mission.
John -

I had actually already been doing further study of the flashlight, which unfortunately could not be completed by the catalogue print deadline, so this item will not appear in this sale.

Thank you -

Howard Weinberger

space1
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posted 08-24-2008 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for space1   Click Here to Email space1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Howard,

Thanks for being attentive!

------------------
John Fongheiser
President
Historic Space Systems, http://www.space1.com

LCDR Scott Schneeweis
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posted 08-24-2008 08:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LCDR Scott Schneeweis   Click Here to Email LCDR Scott Schneeweis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is a disparity between the part number(s) stamped on the purportedly lunar flown Clamp Adapter Bracket SEB33100277-303 and the ASL which lists the suffix of the actual flown part as -304 (see item #1021 within the Apollo 17 ASL). I am comparing against the AS FLOWN CONFIGURATION/FINAL ASL with revision change annex.

------------------
Scott Schneeweis
http://www.SPACEAHOLIC.com/

Larry McGlynn
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posted 08-25-2008 06:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Larry McGlynn   Click Here to Email Larry McGlynn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, that clamp has been modified by the manufacturer. If you look even closer at the part number, you will see that it is changed. The original part number ended in -301.

Whenever a part had a modification, then the part number was changed also to reflect the change of the part design.

I would have some question about the Stowage list's accuracy due to the modification of the original part number.

I will do some further checking.

------------------
Larry McGlynn
A Tribute to Apollo
www.apollotribute.blogspot.com

Robert Pearlman
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posted 08-25-2008 06:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Larry McGlynn:
The original part number ended in -301.
If you look at the unaltered p/n on the back of the adapter, it appears the original suffix was '-001'.

Larry McGlynn
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posted 08-26-2008 09:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Larry McGlynn   Click Here to Email Larry McGlynn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I talked with Gene Cernan this afternoon. The clamp has been identified as flown on the Apollo 10 misson. The part number with the -303 suffix is listed on the Apollo 10 stowage list.

It was mistakenly identified as an Apollo 17 artifact. It will be removed from the auction.

I did mention that there were probably some other members of the corp that would like to have the problem of identifying artifacts from multiple missions. Gene chuckled at the comment.

------------------
Larry McGlynn
A Tribute to Apollo
www.apollotribute.blogspot.com

mikeh
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posted 08-28-2008 09:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mikeh   Click Here to Email mikeh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow, the listing is becoming totally nuts. So many great items!

Has anyone tried HA Live bidding? Any glitches to be aware of? Any good tips? There are easily 50-60 items on which I'd love to bid... until (hopefully) I win 1 or 2.

What I don't like (here comes the bitch) is that the so called "live" bid still must be placed before the item bidding begins. So it really isn't "live"...its more like "pre-live". Not as bad as having to leave an online bid, which I certainly couldn't do for 50-60 items. At least it allows one to keep placing new bids as the auction progresses. However, you can't really compete fairly with the in-house bidders.

I hope that gets changed one day.

LCDR Scott Schneeweis
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posted 08-28-2008 10:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LCDR Scott Schneeweis   Click Here to Email LCDR Scott Schneeweis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Second to last lot, identified as NASA Data Recorder believed to have been used in the Apollo Lunar and Command Modules - is most certainly GSE / and not a flight component affiliated with the onboard CM DSE/ LM DSEA (possibly not even employed with the Apollo program at all).

Michael Davis
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posted 08-30-2008 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Davis   Click Here to Email Michael Davis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does anyone have an idea as to why Edgar Mitchell did not just sign and notate all of the flown Apollo 14 flags listed in this auction? Sure, there is a letter of authenticity included for each, but it would seem so easy to just sign the flags themselves so that there is never (well, almost never) any question about them being genuine in 20 years.

space1
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posted 08-30-2008 07:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for space1   Click Here to Email space1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was wondering when I would see another Gemini flotation ball in an auction. I just recently discovered that these were indeed used in the RCS section of the Gemini. They were packed into extra spaces around the yellow styrofoam and lockfoam flotation blocks. I believe they were bagged as well, but I don't know that for sure. They could also be taped into place. They were to be used "as required" with a minimum quantity of 1300 per spacecraft. The actual quantity used was to be recorded after installation.

The primary purpose of the flotation material in the Gemini nose was to keep the nose high to prevent water from getting into the open hatches. The astronauts also used splash curtains mounted along the hatch hinge to keep the water out.

------------------
John Fongheiser
President
Historic Space Systems, http://www.space1.com

SRB
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posted 09-02-2008 02:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SRB   Click Here to Email SRB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Heritage lot for the "Flown" LM Lunar Surface Maps may not have been flown. The cover doesn't show any part number or S/N number. The final flown manuals have these numbers printed on the cover, as can be seen on almost all the other flown manuals in the Heritage auction. Also, the flown map package, SKB32100082-371 S/N 1001 was signed by Lovell, Swigert and Haise and presented to the Army officer who created the map packages for the first few moon landing missions, Cap. George Colton, shortly after their safe return. The final Stowage List for A-13 shows only one LM Lunar Surface Map package on board. The "unfinished" LM map package in the Heritage sale may not have been flown.

lunareagle
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posted 09-02-2008 07:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lunareagle   Click Here to Email lunareagle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve - Thank you for looking out. We had discovered over the weekend that a logistic error had been made and that these training copies were sent to Heritage in error. You are correct in that both the Apollo 13 LM Lunar Surface Maps and Apollo 13 Flown LM Contingency Checklist Book that were pictured on the site were not flown. Those were actually training copies and that is why the serial and part numbers are not included. This error has been corrected and these two lots will be replaced with flown items.

My best -
Howard

mjanovec
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posted 09-03-2008 12:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mikeh:
What I don't like (here comes the bitch) is that the so called "live" bid still must be placed before the item bidding begins.

That hasn't been my experience. With the HA bidding system, you can log on and place a bid during the live bidding process, as long as they haven't yet completed the bidding on the lot you're interested in.

So far, HA has the best live bidding system I've come across. You can bid in advance (either before the auction or during the auction) or bid live as the lot is being auctioned. It's much nicer than the eBay Live method.

(Granted, things might have changed since the last time I used HA Live, so take anything I say with some caution.)

mikeh
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posted 09-05-2008 08:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mikeh   Click Here to Email mikeh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
With the HA bidding system, you can log on and place a bid during the live bidding process, as long as they haven't yet completed the bidding on the lot you're interested in.

Thats what I would hope for in a "live" bidding system. Though ebay's syste had its problems, when working properly you could see the bidding progress and place a bid at any time. Again, assuming that you were quick enough to do so before the hammer.

Castel
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posted 09-06-2008 03:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Castel   Click Here to Email Castel     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
So far, HA has the best live bidding system I've come across. You can bid in advance (either before the auction or during the auction) or bid live as the lot is being auctioned. It's much nicer than the eBay Live method.
HA live bidding is very fast (depending on your computer connection speed, of course). It is superior to eBay's system. I have used it, and won, very recently.

Castel

Michael Davis
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posted 09-07-2008 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Davis   Click Here to Email Michael Davis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's been a few years since I've participated in auctions - could anyone tell me what surface flown cue cards/ checklists have been selling for? These seem new to me. I notice that Cernan has a few LM flown cards in the upcoming auction, but I don't really know how they are ranked in desirability versus flags, mission patches, etc.

Podge
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posted 09-07-2008 03:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Podge   Click Here to Email Podge     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does anyone know when Heritage will be showing estimate values on the lots?

lunareagle
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posted 09-12-2008 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lunareagle   Click Here to Email lunareagle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Internet bidding has been opened for the Heritage October Space Sale.

Good Luck to all!

lunareagle
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posted 09-14-2008 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lunareagle   Click Here to Email lunareagle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
People registered to receive catalogues should receive them within a week.

gliderpilotuk
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posted 09-18-2008 11:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Catalogue arrived yesterday. Drool....

Paul

lunareagle
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posted 10-04-2008 07:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lunareagle   Click Here to Email lunareagle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just a heads up to fellow space collectors that this is the final weekend before the Heritage sale this coming Tuesday October 7.

Even if you are not bidding, you have to check out the incredible items being offered from the astronauts.

If you are planning to bid, be sure to register in advance so you are not left out.

spaced out
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posted 10-05-2008 03:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regarding lot 60007, an Apollo 17 flown flag, this raises some questions regarding surface flown flags from Apollo 17.

As mentioned in an earlier thread, the souvenir flags flown on Apollo 17 by NASA (in the OFK) were all supposed to be carried in the CM, not the LM.

Apollo 17 was the first flight to apply the new rules introduced after the Apollo 15 cover scandal hearings, and there was no flag kit on the LM.

The astronauts themselves were strictly limited to a single APK each of up to 12 personal items, although these APKs were all carried onto the LM.

If the rules were applied as written the only source for a surface flown flag would be one of Cernan's 12 items from his APK.

[Updated to take into account Noah's clarifications below]

lunareagle
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posted 10-05-2008 06:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lunareagle   Click Here to Email lunareagle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Please be advised that advance Internet bidding is closed at 10:00PM CT Monday evening (tomorrow), so unless you have mailed in a bid or are planning on bidding live or by phone, please be sure to register and bid on-line before then so as not to be disappointed.

Good luck to everyone.

mensax
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posted 10-06-2008 07:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mensax   Click Here to Email mensax     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The A17 surface flag that is at Heritage is from my collection. Gene Cernan told me that without a doubt that this particular flag was flown to the surface of the Moon... and he has inscribed it as being so. It was originally presented to Spiro Agnew's attache... a good friend of Cernans during the Apollo program.

Apollo 17 surface flags are RARE... and this is an authentic example of one.

Noah

spaced out
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posted 10-06-2008 08:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I wasn't aware that a the item was consigned by a cS member, so my apologies to Noah.

One of the problems here is that the item's original provenance has been missed out of the listing. In my opinion the item would be better represented in the form of its original presentation (with the original accompanying certificate or letter). The inscription is something that was added much later based on Cernan's interpretation of the wording of the original presentation and his memory of what this meant, therefore the original presentation is a key element of the provenance of the item.

It would be great if someone could ask Cernan where/how many surface flown flags were actually carried on the mission and how that tallied with NASA's post-Apollo 15 policy on flown items as detailed here.

UPDATE: Noah has suggested to me that one of the 12 items in Cernan's APK could have been a pack of flags. This is something I hadn't really considered but is certainly a possibility. In that case there certainly could be multiple surface flown flags that were given by the astronauts rather than NASA. Again, the original presentation letter or certificate would certainly help, although asking Cernan directly if he carried a pack of flags in his APK would answer the question once and for all.

spaced out
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posted 10-06-2008 01:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's amazing really that nearly 40 years after the event issues like this still haven't been clarified. If someone sat down with Cernan for five minutes and asked him the right questions it would all be clear.

Anyway, if we assume that Cernan and Evans took packs of flags as one item of their APKs and that these are the source of the flown flags accompanied by letters signed by one or both astronauts then there have been a few examples of these surface flown flags sold at auction. e.g.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 10-07-2008 07:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The prices realized for today's Heritage Auction Galleries auction are now online on their website (registration may be required).

Cue cards, flight plans and checklists seem to have attracted the highest bids:

  • 41020: Apollo 17 Command Module Flown Flight Plan, Volumes I and II, Both Signed by and from the Personal Collection of Mission Commander Gene Cernan - $35,850

  • 41076: Apollo 8 Flown Update Book Signed by and from the Personal Collection of Mission Command Module Pilot James Lovell - $33,460

  • 41030: Apollo 17 Lunar Module Flown Lunar Rover Malfunction Procedures Checklist Card Signed by and from the Personal Collection of Mission Commander Gene Cernan - $28,680

  • 41188: Apollo 11 Lunar Module Flown LM Lunar Surface Checklist Page Signed by and Originally from the Collection of Mission Lunar Module Pilot Buzz Aldrin - $23,900

  • 41026: Apollo 17 Lunar Module Flown Go/No-Go Cue Card Signed by and from the Personal Collection of Mission Commander Gene Cernan - $22,705

  • 41028: Apollo 17 Lunar Module Flown Complete LM Contingency Checklist Signed by and from the Personal Collection of Mission Commander Gene Cernan - $22,705
Other notable lots and their results:
  • 41031: Apollo 17 Lunar Module Flown Commander's Armrest Signed by and from the Personal Collection of Mission Commander Gene Cernan - $14,340

  • 41078: Apollo 8 Flown Rotational Controller Handle Signed by and from the Personal Collection of Mission Command Module Pilot James Lovell - $21,510

  • 41081: Apollo 8 Flown Unopened Bottle of Coronet Brandy from the Personal Collection of Mission Command Module Pilot James Lovell - $17,925

  • 41137: Apollo 14 Lunar Module Flown Portable Utility Light as Presented by Mission Commander Alan Shepard to Support Crew Member William Pogue - $20,315

According to Heritage, the bids totaled: $817,162.51 (before the buyer's premium).

wmk
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posted 10-07-2008 08:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wmk   Click Here to Email wmk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is the first time I took a close look at Heritage. I thought the flown items offered by Lovell and Gene Cernan were incredible (among others). I wasn't sure if this auction was exceptional in that respect or not (ie, have previous auctions actually had similar one-of-a kind flown items like the Apollo 8,13,17 flown documents?). I did a search on Heritage from past auctions and did not really see similar items. I actually bid on a couple of Cernan and Lovell flown documents (really nice!), but was surprised how much some of them went for (Apollo 8 updates booklet for over $30K with BP wow!).

I guess my question is this: Can we expect to see similar flown Apollo items directly from Apollo astronaut collections in future auctions or was this really that exceptional in terms of the items offered? Obviously the number of items is limited but I don't have a good feel for this. I missed one very nice item that is really beyond my budget but Gene Cernan's LM Activation Check list (41027) was very tempting!

Bill

rjurek349
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posted 10-07-2008 09:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rjurek349   Click Here to Email rjurek349     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was very impressed by the strength in bidding, especially given the current state of the global economy. I thought it would be a bust, but the bidders really came out for this one. It speaks well for the the strength and future of the hobby.

freshspot
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posted 10-07-2008 11:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for freshspot   Click Here to Email freshspot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had come to the Heritage auction prepared to pick off some high-end bargains. I was figuring that with the economy, there wouldn't be many players this time. Not the case. While I did end up with a checklist I had wanted, I am happy that prices have held in such difficult times.

Dave Scott (not the astronaut)
http://www.apolloartifacts.com/

spaced out
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posted 10-08-2008 01:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It looked a bit rocky for a moment when Duke's flown lots failed to meet their reserves but otherwise seemed pretty strong.

Flown embroidered patches seemed to struggle: AS13 crew and AS14 LB each failed to sell at $2987.50, and GT6 crew and AS10 post-flight crew each failed to sell at $4182.50. Looks to me like the market for unflown crew patches is stronger than for flown examples.

Many of the foreign and state flown flags were bargains: e.g. an Apollo 13 flown Italian flag at $1553.50 (with Lovell and Swigert sigs). If you had a piece of paper with the same signatures it would probably fetch $550.

Ed Mitchell's multiple flown state and foreign flags mostly went unsold (at least live) at $1792.50 each.

As for the flown checklist prices, I hope their popularity is a reflection of people valuing them as complete items rather than seeing a per-page break-up value in them.

Finally, yes the Armstrong WSS sales! The uninscribed one at $8365 was amazing, but the trimmed, inscribed WSS fetching $7170 was simply incredible. I wonder if we're going to see the Armstrong WSS resellers abandoning RR en-masse and flooding the next Heritage sale with them.

Michael
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posted 10-08-2008 01:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael   Click Here to Email Michael     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spaced out:
The uninscribed one at $8365 was amazing...
Is that the highest paid for a Neil WSS litho?

Just Asking
Mike

spaced out
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posted 10-08-2008 03:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just to put the prices of those two Armstrong WSS lithos in context, here's what someone could have bought with the same money as the Armstrong trimmed, inscribed WSS litho ($7170):
  • Apollo 8 flown TX flag $2695
    plus
  • Apollo 14 flown state flag (of your choice) $1792.50
    plus
  • Gemini 7 flown 18x12 US flag $2390
...and have nearly $300 in change.

For the price of the uninscribed WSS litho ($8365) you could have all the above and throw in:

  • Gemini 12 17x11 flown TX flag $1434
OR if you really wanted an Armstrong signature how about?
  • Armstrong & Scott signed treaty $1314.50


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