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Author
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Topic: Shuttle Questions
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NC Apollo Fan
Member Posts: 261
From: Belmont, NC USA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 06-28-2002 04:47 PM
   
Hello all!Let me first say that I know precious little about the space shuttle - which explains the elementary nature of this first question. How do they number the shuttle flights? I always assumed that a mission like "STS-108" meant that it was the 108th flight of the shuttle program, but now I am not so sure. In watching a documentary on Challenger's 51-L flight it stated that it was the 25th mission for the program. This confused me, unless this was the 25th flight of that particular orbiter. Can anyone help me out with this? The same documentary went on to show that the crew cabin had been identified coming out of the debris cloud of the explosion. Not to be morbid, but what do they know of the fate of the crew? My assumption is that they might have still been alive as they fell to the sea but (hopefully) rendered unconscious by the initial blast and subsequent breakup. If memory serves me correct they did recover the bodies. Any thoughts or insight would be appreciated. Jonathan |
Rodina
Member Posts: 836
From: Lafayette, CA
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 06-28-2002 05:12 PM
I am sure someone else can do a better job of this than me, but here goes:STS-108 means that, when scheduled, it was to be the 108th mission of the Shuttle. But payloads get cancelled, engines get moved from one shuttle to another, all kinds of insanity occurs prior to a launch, so often, now, an STS-122, say, will likely fly after STS-125 and before STS-120. With the eleventh, I think, shuttle mission, NASA went to this strange designation which was: 51-L where the "5" represented a 1985 original flight date, the "1" the launch center (1= KSC, 2= Vandenburg) and the letter represented its payload in the launch order for the year. Mercifully, they cancelled that with STS-26, and haven't looked back.
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Rodina
Member Posts: 836
From: Lafayette, CA
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 06-28-2002 05:17 PM
Oh yeah...The crew was, as I understand it, quite awake for the whole ride down. Some crew, at least, activated emergency oxygen supplies. NASA has not, to my knowledge, ever released the cockpit voice recordings past Scobee's "Uh-oh" recorded about a second after the explosion. [all times and names approximate, if someone wants to correct my brazen obtuseness, feel free]
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John K. Rochester
Member Posts: 1292
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 06-28-2002 05:24 PM
exceptional job with explaining..the only thing I would question is that Mike Smith is normally credited with the "Uh-Oh" |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 06-28-2002 05:35 PM
I was led to believe that "Uh Oh" was the last words tranmitted from the orbiter before the breakup. I understand all electrical connections to the crew module were severed during the breakup, a large amount of cables and hoses etc, can be seen trailing behind the crew module after it exits the fireball. No electrical systems (including data and voice recorders) were in operation after the breakup. There is a fake transcript somewhere on the net detailing the moments from breakup to impact, but its pure fiction as far as I know (some sick joker!) (In my opinion) a good book on the subject is "Challenger, A Major Malfunction" by Malcolm McConnell. Adam |
Rodina
Member Posts: 836
From: Lafayette, CA
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 06-28-2002 06:05 PM
I shall not dwell on graphic detail, but that a voice data recorder should work despite the otherwise catastrophic failure of the orbiter. I'd be shocked if the VDR was not within the crew cabin itself and should have run independent of 100% electrical systems failure - if they aren't, it sorta defeats the whole point. That said, I don't know that there -are- words beyond Smith's "Uhoh", but I recall reading in Aviation Week years ago that, in fact, there were.[This message has been edited by Rodina (edited June 28, 2002).] |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 06-28-2002 06:57 PM
I think the voice recorder is in the forward section of the orbiter, but the fuel cell powerplants and the associated fuel tanks are located beneath the payload bay liner of the orbiter. When the orbiter broke up all lines were severed. Although I'd have thought some kind of battery backup for that would have been a good idea! I don't suppose the orbiters have much need for voice recorder's anymore except for launch and reentry as NASA stopped producing transcripts quite a few years ago I think. I don't think "Uh Oh" were the last words on the orbiter, Mike Smith's emergency air supply was on of the ones that was turned on, it was fitted on the back of his seat, leading to conclusions that Ellison Onizuka had leaned forward and activated it. Adam |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3445
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 06-28-2002 11:26 PM
And not to be morbid, but I've seen recent astronaut presentations where there was a camera in the cockpit during ascent - so was there such a camera on board 51L?To add to the confusion, Mission 51L was also known as STS-33. This means that eight missions were either canceled (STS-10) and/or remanifested (STS-22/Mission 51E into the "new" Mission 51D), for example. Tracking down changes in the shuttle manifest has been an arcane fascination of mine. For example, it's been stated wrongly that Joe Engle's 51I flight emblem contains 19 stars when it was the 20th shuttle mission. It contains 19 stars because it was originally known as the STS-19 crew.... Hart |
Rodina
Member Posts: 836
From: Lafayette, CA
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 06-29-2002 01:50 AM
I'd be surprised if there was a camera onboard like the ones they've got these days - NASA's not known for using electronics which are particularly cutting edge - video cameras were still pretty bulky in 1986; and a damned sight bulkier than what they had in, say, 1996. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3445
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 06-29-2002 02:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Rodina:
That said, I don't know that there -are- words beyond Smith's "Uhoh", but I recall reading in Aviation Week years ago that, in fact, there were.
There was a site _some_where which discussed this as well as raised the question as to whether or not McAuliffe had a tape recorder on person (rather than in a locker) to record her thoughts once she got into space. If it was on person, then that might have shed some light as to crew status, but I believe the site mentioned that a recorder they thought belonged to her had been recovered, and either they didn't run any tests on it (because it was doubtful if they would recover any data due to the length of immersion in salt water) or they did and they while there was some tape slack (meaning either it been running or it got that way upon impact), nothing was recovered. |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 06-29-2002 03:46 AM
Iv'e put together a few links for anybody who is interested in the Challengers final flight. http://www.rickadams.org/chall/ contains the "fake" additional transcript, a JSC engineers discussion about the OPS 2 (voice data) recorder and the shuttle power supply, a NASA PR guys rebuttal of stories of additional +73 seconds transcripts (including the personal tape record mentioned in the previous posting).
http://history.nasa.gov/rogersrep/51lcover.htm Report of the Presidential Commision on the Space Shuttle Challenger Accident. (loads of info from all volumes of the report)
http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/shuttle/missions/51-l/mission-51-l.html KSC's official 51L page.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/transcript.html NASA's Official transcript of the flight.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/sts51l.html NASA's links page for info on 51L There are also constant discussions on the newsgroup sci.space.shuttle but be warned there are a few kooks out there !
Hope these a useful................Adam
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ASCAN1984
Member Posts: 1049
From: County Down, Nothern Ireland
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 06-29-2002 03:56 AM
HiThe evidence that the crew servived as you know is from the peap's of the air packs. These contained only air and would have been useless is stopping uncontiousness. There were five minutes of air inside the peap's and when four were recovered three were found to be activated on and one was not. This peap was found to be scobee's. They were able to identify it from the serial number. To me this does not mean that he was uncontious. It just means that Judy resnik was not contious or possibly incapacitated and could not turn on his supply. The one of the peap's was found to have been activated. But this is the frightining bit to me. over three minutes of air supply was used after it was turned on(possible by Elision Onizuka)and the decent to the atlantic has only two minutes. i think that there was a panic on board. From Mike anyway and that his breathing was erratic. Challenger
(crew module) met the atlantic on its port(left) side.At over 200mph They know this from the supports recovered of the crew module. They were bent to the right hand side. The crew was found to be in their seats when the bodies were recovered in april of 1986. I don't really want to go into the bodies but may i say one thing. I use the word bodies lightly. God spead the cew of sts 51L An excellent online book is shown on my yahoo group which explain everything about it. I hope this helps. |
Philip
Member Posts: 5952
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 06-29-2002 08:40 AM
The one & onely book to have on the 51-L incident is ;
"Report of the Presidential commission on the space shuttle Challenger accident"In fact there're 5 books but the very first one is the best, it's printed on glossy paper, it's the only one with color photos and it's gives a superb overview of the Shuttle systems and of the events leading to 51-L ... ( I have a spare one if You're interested ! )
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NC Apollo Fan
Member Posts: 261
From: Belmont, NC USA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 07-02-2002 09:16 AM
I just wanted to thank everyone who responded - the numbering was certainly more complex than I had ever imagined. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge!As for 51-L, may they rest in peace. Jonathan |
Cliff Lentz
Member Posts: 655
From: Philadelphia, PA USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 07-02-2002 09:41 AM
If you notice on the NASA websites they now have the actual mission number in parenthesis such as STS-107 (112th mission). I personally think that NASA was hit with the "Superstition Bug" after Apollo 13 and decided not to have "13" in any of it's flight numbers, conveniently not naming a STS-13 and that's what loused up the order as well. Funny that they are having an STS-113 in the future. Go figure! |
Robonaut
Member Posts: 259
From: Solihull, West Mids, England
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 07-02-2002 01:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Cliff Lentz:
I personally think that NASA was hit with the "Superstition Bug" after Apollo 13 and decided not to have "13" in any of it's flight numbers, conveniently not naming a STS-13 and that's what loused up the order as well. Funny that they are having an STS-113 in the future. Go figure!
NASA did intend to have a STS-13. On 22 Feb 1983 the crew was named as Crippen (Cdr), Scobee (Plt), Hart (MS1), Van Hoften (MS2) & Nelson (MS3). There were various problems with shuttle missions leading to cancellations and delays and then the new STS flight designation codes. STS-13 became STS-41C and flew in April 1984. If there had been no problems I am sure STS-13 would have flown as such, although there may have been a few 'nervous twitches' about. Best wishes Rob W |
CH51L
New Member Posts:
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Registered:
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posted 07-27-2002 03:44 PM
Rodina gave a perfect explanation:51-L where the "5" represented a 1985 original flight date, the "1" the launch center (1= KSC, 2= Vandenburg) and the letter represented its payload in the launch order for the year. This is my first posting. I chose my email user ID to honor the Challenger astronauts and keep them in my daily thoughts. Thanks to all who responded to the first posting for the information. Ad Astra!
Dena Lynn Ferguson [This message has been edited by CH51L (edited July 27, 2002).] |
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