posted 02-12-2011 06:57 AM               

The reason I ask is that as late as 12th March 1969 the Toledo Blade was reporting that space officials were saying that it would be Aldrin.

Astronaut Edwin E. (Buzz) Aldrin, Jr., is expected to be the first American to walk on the moon, a space agency official said Tuesday.

"That's the present plan," Dr. John W. Small, chief of the lunar surface projects office at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's manned spacecraft center, said.

He emphasized, however, that plans still be changed, with another pilot aboard America's Apollo 11 mission in July -- civilian astronaut Neil Armstrong -- getting the historic assignment...

posted 02-12-2011 10:43 AM               

Armstrong's salary was increased on 13th July 1969 to $30,054; Aldrin's on 1st July 1969 to $20,067; and Collins' on the same date to $18,648.

This means that they earned for the flight - Armstrong - $669.16; Aldrin - $458.21; Collins - $414.85.

On the lunar surface Armstrong earned $74 and Aldrin $50.67. For their relative EVAs Armstrong was paid just $7.65 and Aldrin $3.64.

posted 02-12-2011 05:15 PM              

I think when they started actually thinking on this the [or one] school of thought was: Commander stayed in while the LMP walked first. This followed the spacewalk protocol in Gemini: Commander stayed in the craft while other astronaut did the EVA.

Then there's the famous/infamous story [not sure how true] that Buzz pressed the issue, going to Deke and asking who would walk first. I remember reading Buzz's father pressed the issue to Buzz. Buzz also consulted Neil, Neil saying something like he understood the historic implications of the event and wasn't going to rule anything out.

Meanwhile [?] it was shown that the way the LEM door opened, it was a lot easier for the CDR to exit first.

Not sure which of these was the biggest factor, but I believe Deke, soon after Buzz went to him, sat the crew down and said: Neil walks first.

posted 02-13-2011 01:52 AM               

However, if, as I posted, they were still thinking about Aldrin out first as late as March 1969, when did this change of heart take place.

posted 02-13-2011 10:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by moorouge:
There was another factor mentioned at the time which may even have played a part in Armstrong's selection as CDR on the flight. NASA was a civilian organisation and Apollo was a civilian programme. Therefore, NASA was keen to have a civilian first on the Moon to show the world there were no military overtones.

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With what we know today I'm frankly shocked the "Armstrong was a civilian" angle is still being touted today.

Simply put, no. Slayton's original plan had Gus Grissom, a USAF officer, getting the first shot at walking on the Moon (Kraft and Gilruth supported this idea). Slayton also considered Frank Borman (another USAF officer) until he opted to retire after Apollo 8. Further, had the Apollo 8/9 crew swap not occurred, Pete Conrad, a Navy officer, would have been the first on the moon. Heck, had history changed a little Tom Stafford, another USAF officer could have made that first step.

When the matter came to Deke Slayton, the hatch issue aside, he felt Armstrong should get out first based on his being the senior astronaut. The same criteria he would have used had Gus Grissom been alive.

posted 02-14-2011 06:56 AM               

Monday, April 14, 1969, ended what the New York Times called "weeks of speculation" as to whether it would be Armstrong or Aldrin to first set foot on the moon. At an MSC press conference, George Low indicated that "plans call for Mr. Armstrong to be the first man out after the Mon landing... A few minutes later, Colonel Aldrin will follow Mr. Armstrong down the ladder."

For whatever his reasons, Haney suggested in interviews that Armstrong "was not unaware of the importance of the first man who stepped onto the moon and looked at it very carefully and decided that perhaps it should be the commander's prerogative..."

Haney, according to NASA management and Armstrong, was incorrect. The decision as to who would be out first was decided after simulations of the egress procedure showed a greater risk to damaging the lunar module if the pilot tried to step around the commander to exit first.

When the key people in charge of the simulations, notably MSC engineers George Franklin and Raymond Zedekar, concluded that the risk was far less when the commander went out first, the mission planners scratched the Gemini procedures and wrote new ones for Apollo.

posted 02-14-2011 01:03 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Captain Apollo:
Was not the left/right "seat" fixed in terms of controls, eg Aldrin was not trained to work Armstrong's panels and vice-versa?

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posted 02-14-2011 01:23 PM               

...simulations of the egress procedure showed a greater risk to damaging the lunar module if the pilot tried to step around the commander to exit first.

posted 02-15-2011 02:15 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Hart Sastrowardoyo:
(Although, that is normally used only when docked with the CM and also requires a very long rope.)

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posted 02-15-2011 12:50 PM              

Personally, I think the 'civilian' status of Neil, whether it accounted in the decision or not, is certainly worthy of consideration, given the political climate of the late 1960s.

posted 02-15-2011 06:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by moorouge:
On the lunar surface Armstrong earned $74 and Aldrin $50.67. For their relative EVAs Armstrong was paid just $7.65 and Aldrin $3.64.

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posted 02-15-2011 09:51 PM               

Even Slayton's account of the decision in Deke! is clouded by decades of time passing by. Even so, of all the stories I find this one the most credible:

1. Initially, not much thought was given to the issue.

2. Early on, as reported, assumptions were made that the LMP would go out, following the Gemini example.

3. By early 1969, according to Slayton "plans said the commander should exit first." Why did the plans change and who changed them? We don't know.

4. Aldrin, along with his father apparently, made a pitch all the way to George Low, who "bounced it back" to Slayton.

   An assumption might be made that Aldrin's pursuit of the honor hurt his chances, but while it is often mentioned, no one comes right out and says that was the defining reason.

5. Slayton, following military seniority tradition, elected to have Armstrong go out first based upon his being an astronaut longer than Aldrin.

posted 02-16-2011 02:51 AM               

The importance of who went out through the door first has been blown out of all proportion.

Arguably Aldrin was the first, he was the commander.

posted 02-16-2011 05:13 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by poofacio:
Arguably Aldrin was the first, he was the commander.

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posted 02-16-2011 12:55 PM            

In that regard there is little difference between a few millimeters of aluminum (the LM skin) and a few millimeters of rubber (the soles of their boots).

From what I have read Armstrong has spent much time emphasizing that he and Aldrin landed TOGETHER. It is the media, and by extension the reading population, that have made such an ado about who stepped outside first. Apollo should be remembered for the ability to navigate to, and land a machine carrying crew upon the surface of the moon, not arguments about who stepped or touched the surface first. Armstrong was the first person to land a machine on another planet, he had control.

posted 02-16-2011 03:02 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by LM-12:
I find the subject of this thread and other "what if" scenarios rather pointless and petty.

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The original question was when the decision and/or announcement was made that Armstrong was to be first out, which is a matter of history. That answered, the discussion has spun into how the decision was made, also a topic rooted in the recollection of participants and the information contained in archived documents.

posted 02-16-2011 05:10 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by MikeSpace:
I think the 'civilian' status of Neil... is certainly worthy of consideration, given the political climate of the late 1960s.

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I suppose the famous 'phone call from the oval room' to Armstrong and Aldrin on Tranquility and his being on the Hornet to welcome the crew and declare this is the greatest day since the Creation were consolation enough to put 'his' stamp on the NASA space program. A bit too much grandstanding on his part, especially since his budget canceled all but the Space Shuttle from NASA's ambitious plans a mere three years later.

As for Armstrong's civilian status, for me, at least, it shouldn't figure much into any historical debate. Didn't Slayton gather all the astronauts in a room and declare 'the people who will walk on the moon are in this room' (my paraphrasing). How can you predict which ones (of course the record knows of his preference for Grissom as 'first'), and when? Would it have made a difference if Armstrong had still been a serving naval officer and Aldrin the civilian (that's one big 'what if': Aldrin going to Deke and stating 'a civilian should go out first, because NASA is a civil space agency, conducted out in the open, unlike the Russians').

posted 02-16-2011 10:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by moorouge:
It is all too easy to re-write history with "what we know today". Decisions were made and opinions were formulated and expressed with what was known then - sometimes very different from current views and knowledge.

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Where is the documentation, or testimony that Armstrong's status as a civilian had anything to do with him being "first"? None of the parties at NASA involved in the decision indicate anything to that effect.

It seems to me to be a combination of Neil's seniority as an astronaut and the idea that his personality was a better image for the first moon walker than Aldrin. It's anachronistic to suggest Armstrong got out first because he was a civilian.

posted 02-17-2011 07:56 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Skylon:
Where is the documentation, or testimony that Armstrong's status as a civilian had anything to do with him being "first"?

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The Inside the List column (July 12) implies that there was some complicated or arcane reason why NASA protocols were changed so that Neil Armstrong became the first man on the moon and Buzz Aldrin the second. The reason Armstrong received the honor of being first to set foot on the moon is simple and well known. James Michener explained it in his novel "Space," but here it is again:

United States-Soviet relations in 1969 were tense, and NASA wanted to make absolutely clear that Apollo 11 was a voyage of discovery, not a military adventure. Armstrong was chosen to go first because he was the only astronaut in the Apollo program who was a civilian; the other Apollo astronauts had been military pilots. To further play down any suspicion of military motives, Armstrong and Aldrin left a plaque on the moon with this message: "We came in peace for all mankind."

During a conversation I had with Aldrin at the Deauville film festival in September 2000, he made it clear that he knew NASA's reason for the decision. Perhaps he didn't accept it, but he certainly understood it.

F. Gwynplaine Macintyre
Glasgow

Some observers also feel that space officials considered Armstrong's position as a civilian in making him the first man on the Moon.

posted 02-17-2011 11:14 AM               

If it had not been for Jim McDivitt's decision to stick with his earth-orbital LM mission, Pete Conrad and Alan Bean would have been on Apollo 11. Would NASA have found a civilian to put on that crew instead? Would they have swapped Armstrong's crew for Conrad's?