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Author
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Topic: Who should've made a moon landing but didn't?
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osizz
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posted 01-17-2011 09:48 PM
   
Re-watching "Apollo 13" and "From the Earth to the Moon" lately, I started wondering who most deserved to land on the moon but never had the chance to (in the Apollo era).Obviously, from an astronaut perspective, Lovell has to be at the top of the list (at least my list). Being a Apollo 13 homer, I'll thrown Haise in there too, between the near-miss on 13 and 18 being cancelled. I would say Borman and Collins, but it seems they both could have if they had chosen to. It's hard to put your finger on people otherwise. Obviously there were a lot of hands and minds involved with the program and far beyond just astronauts. |
AJ
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From: Plattsburgh, NY, United States
Registered: Feb 2009
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posted 01-17-2011 10:03 PM
I'd say Dick Gordon, who certainly would have had the program not been cut short. He's a great guy, smart, funny, an awesome pilot and certainly had an excellent career at NASA. |
Tom
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From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 01-17-2011 10:15 PM
My first choice would be Jim McDivitt. |
alanh_7
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From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-17-2011 10:16 PM
For me it would Joe Engle. |
Delta7
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From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-17-2011 10:19 PM
Gus Grissom.
C.C. Williams. |
ColinBurgess
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From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 01-18-2011 12:15 AM
Charlie Bassett
Ted Freeman |
mjanovec
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From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-18-2011 12:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by osizz:
Obviously, from an astronaut perspective, Lovell has to be at the top of the list (at least my list). Being a A13 homer, I'll thrown Haise in there too
Not to be nit-picky, but Lovell and Haise were indeed given their chance... and it was circumstance that prevented them from actually getting to place their feet in the lunar dust. Though part of me wishes Lovell and Haise were given another chance to make the landing. |
lm5eagle
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posted 01-18-2011 12:35 AM
Lovell, Haise, Collins, McDivitt |
Obviousman
Member Posts: 438
From: NSW, Australia
Registered: May 2005
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posted 01-18-2011 02:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
My first choice would be Jim McDivitt.
He was offered a chance as LMP on Apollo 14, I believe, but declined the opportunity if he couldn't be in command. Sort of like what Gene Cernan did. |
Obviousman
Member Posts: 438
From: NSW, Australia
Registered: May 2005
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posted 01-18-2011 02:22 AM
I'd also go with Dick Gordon, and it goes without saying that Gus should have been the first man on the Moon (IMHO). |
JBWSpace
Member Posts: 60
From: San Diego, Ca, USA
Registered: Nov 2010
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posted 01-18-2011 02:32 AM
All of the men who first risked their lives and reached the stratus of the moon should have returned to touch it's surface. I applaud the men of Apollo 8. |
Henry Heatherbank
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From: Adelaide, South Australia
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 01-18-2011 03:09 AM
Bill Anders (because the explorer in him deserved a shot). Tom Stafford (because he was one of the most qualified). |
moorouge
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From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 01-18-2011 06:25 AM
No votes for Wally Schirra? He and Stafford on the Moon together would have made for an hilarious flight and, no doubt, caused convulsions in Mission Control.  |
Tykeanaut
Member Posts: 2216
From: Worcestershire, England, UK.
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-18-2011 09:19 AM
I believe McDivitt and Shepard did not see eye-to-eye? Hence no trip on Apollo 14. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-18-2011 09:24 AM
From what I've read, McDivitt had an issue with Shepard "jumping ahead of the line" rather than getting in line with everyone else (i.e. being assigned to a backup crew first). |
Paul23
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From: South East, UK
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-18-2011 09:35 AM
I suppose for me it would be the likes of Dick Gordon and Fred Haise who specifically stayed in the rotation that I feel should have walked on the moon. I've always tended to assume that had the likes of Frank Borman, Tom Stafford and Mike Collins wanted to do so they would have had oppourtunities to further down the line. |
NASAROB
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From: Astoria NY
Registered: Feb 2009
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posted 01-18-2011 09:41 AM
What about Gordo Cooper, if anyone got screwed it had to be him and also Joe Engle. As much as Jim McDivitt and Frank Borman "deserved" a shot, they did get to command an Apollo Mission, Jim Lovell and Fred Haise were given a chance and didn't Mike Collins leave the program not wanting to serve as back-up before getting the commander slot. |
Apollo14LMP
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From: UK
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 01-18-2011 10:17 AM
Me. Seriously... Fred Haise, and Dick Gordon |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 01-18-2011 10:34 AM
Though I understand the spirit of the original question, I have a hard time believing that there are any Apollo-era astronauts (outside perhaps Brian O'Leary) who members here would deprive a moon landing opportunity. Or am I misreading our membership? |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-18-2011 11:02 AM
I read the question as who do you think MOST deserved to walk on the moon among those who didn't (or who you would have liked to see do so)? I could type a long list, but chose two who came to mind right away. Grissom is one of my favorites, and him being first on the moon as was originally planned would have been awesome. Williams would have landed on Apollo 12 had he not died in that freak T-38 accident. |
Rick Mulheirn
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From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 01-18-2011 11:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Delta7:
From what I've read, McDivitt had an issue with Shepard "jumping ahead of the line"
From all accounts, judging by comments McDivitt made last time he was in the UK he had a pretty low opinion of Shepard and his abilities. And I am quite sure, the prospect of being outranked by a chap with 15 minutes of spaceflight experience, compared with his own impressive flight time credentials would have been just too much to swallow.In keeping with the rest of the post, I think Joe Engle got the short end of the stick and Gordon Cooper was pushed out from command of Apollo 13. |
AJ
Member Posts: 511
From: Plattsburgh, NY, United States
Registered: Feb 2009
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posted 01-18-2011 11:15 AM
I agree with Delta 7. I don't think there's anything mean-spirited going on here at all. It's simply a matter of personal opinion of who we would have MOST liked to have seen have the opportunity. Sort of like, if you could pick just one astronaut who didn't land for a moonwalk, who would it be? Nothing mean, just good fun. |
Paul23
Member Posts: 836
From: South East, UK
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-18-2011 11:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by AJ:
Sort of like, if you could pick just one astronaut who didn't land for a moonwalk, who would it be? Nothing mean, just good fun.
I tried about three times to write something that said that but I couldn't get the words right so I gave up in the end!
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fredtrav
Member Posts: 1677
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 01-18-2011 12:25 PM
Bill Anders and Wally Schirra. Actually all the Apollo astronauts should have walked on the moon. Indeed we should still have astronauts walking on the moon today. |
KenDavis
Member Posts: 187
From: W.Sussex United Kingdom
Registered: May 2003
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posted 01-18-2011 01:16 PM
Joe Engle and Richard GordonThey had no choice over the cruel cut that cancelled Apollo 18. |
ambrous
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From: indianapolis, in
Registered: Feb 2008
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posted 01-18-2011 01:17 PM
Regarding the original question... "Who most deserved to land on the moon but never had the chance?"When you take look at the astronauts of the period, only Cooper of groups 1 and 2 did not get offered a chance, retire/die before being offered or declined a spot in the rotation. Group 3 offers more candidates... William Anders who retired while on a backup crew. Walter Cunningham and Donn Eisele were still around for a while, but unlikely after Apollo 7. Dick Gordon eagerly stayed in the rotation and would have been given his chance on Apollo 18. Rusty Schweickart was still around and looking for a flight (backup crew on Skylab) There are any number of group 4 and more likely 5 to choose from. I would choose as deserving; Dick Gordon. Also Haise for so working on so many backup crews Apollo 8, 11, 16 and flying Apollo 13. I have been a Stafford fan and had it not been for him taking over the astronaut office management position so Shepard could fly, I would like to have seen him fly a lunar landing. |
Delta7
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From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-18-2011 01:30 PM
Rusty Schweickart was apparently Deke Slayton's original choice to be Dave Scott's LMP (backing up Apollo 12 and flying Apollo 15). Those plans changed, however, after Schweickart's bout with nausea and vomiting on Apollo 9. The concern was that Rusty might vomit during a lunar EVA, which could very easily have proven fatal. Even Schweickart apparently agreed at the time. Of course, with what we know today about Space Adaptation Syndrom, it's likely that Schweickart may have been afflicted early in the Apollo 15 mission had he flown, but fine by the time they reached the moon. |
icarkie
Member Posts: 618
From: BURTON ON TRENT /England
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted 01-18-2011 01:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by AJ:
I'd say Dick Gordon, who certainly would have had the program not been cut short. He's a great guy, smart, funny, an awesome pilot and certainly had an excellent career at NASA.
Same for me Cpt. Dick Gordon... also Joe Engle. |
East-Frisian
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From: Germany
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posted 01-18-2011 01:56 PM
Stuart Roosa and Roger Chaffe would have been my favorites. |
Michael Davis
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From: Houston, Texas
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 01-18-2011 02:50 PM
Michael Collins. I've always taken it almost personally that he declined command of Apollo 17. He is such a class act that I somehow feel that he let us down by not going to the surface. Just image how a wonderful book such as "Carrying the Fire" could have been made even better by the description the landing itself. At the time he felt that another two years of training was not what he wanted to do...but two years out of an entire lifetime to command a lunar landing mission? I wish he had taken Slayton up on the offer. |
Kite
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From: Northampton UK
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posted 01-18-2011 04:18 PM
I can confirm with Rick Mulheirn's post that Jim McDivitt certainly did make it crystal clear that he would never have flown with Alan Shepard. It was at the Birmingham Autographica last spring. Interestingly though, according to Dave Scott [the astronaut] in his book 'Two Sides of the Moon' with Alexei Leonov on page 237 McDivitt says "Davy, this is my last mission. I'm really really tired." This was after Apollo 9 so although I would have loved McDivitt to have landed on the Moon I don't think it was ever on. I agree that Gordon Cooper was put out of the running by astronaut politics but had he taken Apollo 13 he would never have landed anyway, although I am sure he would have handled that situation well for he was better in space than in training for it. We have to feel sorry for Jim Lovell and Fred Haise and the latter doublely so when '19 was axed. If only '18 had stayed both Joe Engle and Dick Gordon would have made it onto the surface of the Moon but unfortunately neither did. It was hard for Gordon as he was in the running for '17 and many thought he would get it after the Gene Cernan helicopter crash and also having the geologist Jack Schmitt on his crew. Gerry Carr and possibly Jack Lousma and Stuart Roosa were others who suffered through cancelled flights. Although its very sad events beforehand means you have to discount Gus Grissom, Ted Freeman, Charlie Bassett, Elliot See, CC Williams, Ed White, Roger Chaffee and Ed Givens as they never had the chance even though all worthy, especially Grissom and White. Wally Schirra, Frank Borman, Tom Stafford and Mike Collins all for different reasons chose not to go, as did McDivitt, but circumstances caused Bill Anders to quit as after backing '11 he did not want to go to the Moon again and not land. Rusty Schweickart's sickness seems to have affected his chances. One other astronaut no one has mentioned is Deke Slayton who had been cleared to fly before Apollo ended. He really had earned his chance but he would have been unlikely to pull others off the rota and probably NASA management would not have allowed him to. Unlike the Shepard situation! So, all in all and after much consideration all these people deserved to land on the Moon but my particular choice if I could change history would be Dick Gordon. |
Paul23
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From: South East, UK
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posted 01-18-2011 04:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kite:
It was at the Birmingham Autographica last spring.
That was also my recollection from his talk, that he had found the work for his two flights had exhausted him and he didn't want to go through it anymore. I think he also mentioned he was concerned about the effect his continued absence from home was having on his family as well. |
ilbasso
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From: Greensboro, NC USA
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posted 01-18-2011 06:35 PM
The question that came to my mind is the follow-on: "Who should have NOT walked on the Moon so that someone else could have?" I can't come up with an answer to that one. Every one of the Moonwalkers had their own unique skills, personalities, and made their own particular contributions. It's hard to imagine what one of the missions would have been like had someone been substituted for one of the two Moonwalkers on the flight. |
Skylon
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posted 01-18-2011 08:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kite:
One other astronaut no one has mentioned is Deke Slayton who had been cleared to fly before Apollo ended. He really had earned his chance but he would have been unlikely to pull others off the rota and probably NASA management would not have allowed him to. Unlike the Shepard situation!
More than that, the crews for Apollos 16 and 17 were deep in training. Even the Skylab crews were announced and in training. ASTP was literally Deke's only shot as the only American space flight with no flight crew when Deke returned to full flight status.With Al Shepard, he was back on flight status before Apollo 13 (and 14) had crews assigned. The "rotation" is not the same thing as having a crew assigned and in full training, and Deke believed that he had no reason to uphold it after Apollo 11. There are many instances where its clear Deke was ready to break rotation, but events resulted in it being unnecessary. It is not fair to compare Slayton and Shepard's situations in this regard. |
Jay Chladek
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posted 01-18-2011 11:51 PM
I've usually been reluctant to get involved in discussions like this as they can open up a can of worms sometimes. But, there is one guy who I think not only should have gotten a shot at the moon, but also a command. That would be Stu Roosa. Reason being is he did an admirable job on Apollo 14 even with the minor issues that popped up on that flight and the support work he did on Apollo 13. After that, he stayed to do backup CMP duties for not one, but TWO missions when most everyone else was jumping ship and moving on to other things. Typically CMPs are considered second in command because of their responsibilities. So if the schedule had held, seeing Stu become commander of say an Apollo 20 would have been nice if things had went another direction. |
Obviousman
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From: NSW, Australia
Registered: May 2005
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posted 01-19-2011 12:43 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ambrous:
Regarding the original question... "Who most deserved to land on the moon but never had the chance?"
Some excellent points there, ambrous! |
osizz
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posted 01-19-2011 09:53 AM
As some have speculated, the question wasn't meant to be malicious nor to take away from those who landed. I didn't mean to replace any of them; just to discuss who contributed greatly to the cause and wasn't able to get the reward of actually walking on the moon.I'll challenge those who say Lovell and Haise "had their shot" with 13. It wasn't user error, but a mechanical failure that didn't allow them to land. It was out of their hands. So in the sense that they were given a chance in the flight rotation, yes, that's true; but they weren't afforded a true attempt to land. |
randy
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From: West Jordan, Utah USA
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posted 01-19-2011 11:42 AM
Don Lind |
garymilgrom
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From: Atlanta, GA
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posted 01-19-2011 12:24 PM
I know this thread was intended to cover American astronauts, but Alexei Leonov spent years in training and almost died during his EVA before the Russian moon program was scrapped. He is another who deserves to have planted his boots on lunar soil. |
mjanovec
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From: Midwest, USA
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posted 01-19-2011 01:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by osizz:
I'll challenge those who say Lovell and Haise "had their shot" with 13. It wasn't user error, but a mechanical failure that didn't allow them to land. It was out of their hands.
Overall, I think the Apollo 13 crew was given a chance to succeed equal to that of the other six crews that landed. Once they strap you in the Saturn V and launch you towards the moon, I think that qualifies as being given a "chance." In retrospect, it might appear the Apollo 13 was never given a chance, knowing that a defect lay hidden within the heater on the O2 tank. But at the time, they undertook the mission knowing there was risk that the equipment ultimately wouldn't perform as expected. They knew that being given a chance was no guarantee of success. The same could also be said of every other crew than went to the moon. For me, any real debate about the Apollo 13 crew is about whether they should have been given a second chance or not. Lovell and Haise were highly trained and motivated to complete the assigned tasks at Fra Mauro, even adopting a mission logo that emphasized the science behind their mission. It is arguable that they deserved that particular mission much more than Al Shepard did. Shepard jumped the line by many places and, by some accounts, was half-hearted about his geological training and the scientific objectives of the mission. Don't get me wrong...I'm still happy that Shepard got to walk on the moon. I just don't think his performance during the EVAs was all that spectacular. |
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