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Author
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Topic: Apollo 11: Armstrong announced as first out
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FFrench
Member Posts: 3165
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-17-2011 01:17 PM
  
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge: Armstrong was chosen to go first because he was the only astronaut in the Apollo program who was a civilian.
Well, no. Apollo astronaut Walt Cunningham was also a civilian. Armstrong was chosen along with Elliot See, another civilian at time of selection. Of course, he had passed away by the time of Apollo 11, but by then Rusty Schweickart was another flown civilian Apollo astronaut. NASA also had, if I recall correctly without going to check all the bios, Fred Haise, Jack Swigert, Jack Schmitt, Vance Brand, Owen Garriott, Ed Gibson, Don Lind, Curt Michel, Joe Allen, Phil Chapman, Tony England, Karl Henize, Don Holmquest, Bill Lenoir, Story Musgrave, Bob Parker, and Bill Thornton on its "civilian astronaut" roster at the time of Apollo 11 crew selection. This rough estimate of mine would make Armstrong one of about twenty active astronauts during Apollo who was a civilian at that time. There was also Deke Slayton, a civilian by then hoping to get back on flight status. quote:
the other Apollo astronauts had been military pilots.
No again - Armstrong had also been a Naval aviator prior to joining NASA, and had even been in combat. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 02-17-2011 01:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by capoetc:
I am quite confident that Armstrong's civilian status had virtually nothing to do with the decision itself -- it's introduction into the discussion is, in my view, after-the-fact discussion and justification.
It's hardly after the fact. Allowing for all the facts prior to '11' - crew selections; astronauts waiving flights, etc. - the fact remains that Armstong's crew found themselves in the position of making the first landing attempt.
It was then, and only then, that the question arose as to whether it might be better PR for a civilian to make the first footprint on the Moon's surface. Remember the original plan was for Aldrin to be first, a decision that wasn't changed until mid-April. The discussion has been as to what part, since there was a civilian on the crew making the first landing, this had in swapping the 'first out' assignment. As has been pointed out, this is something that may never be known with absolute certainty. But one cannot deny that there were those who, at the time, thought it worthy of consideration especially as fate put a civilian on the first lunar landing. I would agree that with any other crew this consideration would probably not have arisen. On edit: Please FFrench, I didn't say Armstrong was the only civilian in the programme. That was in the letter from the New York Times that I quoted. |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3165
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-17-2011 02:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
I didn't say Armstrong was the only civilian in the programme. That was in the letter from the New York Times that I quoted.
I'm aware of that. Simply pointing out that, if you are looking to provide evidence that there was discussion in 1969 that Armstrong was favored for being a civilian at that time - an interesting discussion that is certainly worth having - you may not have been aware that the newspaper letter from an unrelated person in Glasgow, written thirty years later, that you cite as evidence was full of major errors. It may therefore not be the best of sources to base your reasoning on. Hope this helps. |
Skylon
Member Posts: 277
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 02-17-2011 03:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by FFrench:
It may therefore not be the best of sources to base your reasoning on. Hope this helps.
Beat me to it.The New York Times may be a reputable source when it comes to the articles, but this is a letter to the Times. You need to then look at who is writing this. My first hit on the internet for this individual you referenced is a British sci-fi author who was 21 when Apollo 11 landed, who contributed to parts of the NY Daily News (mostly in the arts). He had no direct involvement in the program. His only citation is the fictional book "Space" which is like me citing the film "Saving Private Ryan" when writing a paper on D-Day. Talk is one thing. There's talk we never landed on the Moon, but there is nothing to back that up. Likewise, there will probably always be talk that Armstrong landed first because he was a civilian, because it rings enough to be true...until you look deeper. We know enough, and specifically most people on this forum know enough, to say that there is not enough evidence to support that his being a civilian was why he walked first on the Moon. Nobody involved in the decision making process has suggested otherwise. There has been no stunning document found in NASA archives, like a note saying "Deke, Neil MUST be first. A civilian sends the message we want. - Bob" Historians try not to write based on rumors and whispers, but on interviews, documents, reliable secondary accounts to build upon what has been written before, and interpretations of these sources. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 02-17-2011 04:18 PM
I did quote also a comtemporary article which implies that there was talk about whether a civilian should be first out. Let's look at the wood, not the individual trees.
Also, I have never suggested that it was the only factor. I repeat that it MAY have been a consideration, however minor, when the decision was made to switch Aldrin for Armstrong as first out. As such, one cannot sweep it entirely under the carpet when one deliberates on the history of the decision. |
Skylon
Member Posts: 277
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 02-17-2011 04:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
I did quote also a comtemporary article which implies that there was talk about whether a civilian being first out. Let's look at the wood, not the individual trees.
The Windsor Star line? That didn't leave a lot to go on. "Some observers also feel that space officials considered Armstrong's position as a civilian in making him the first man on the Moon." Beyond, my first question of "who wrote this?" My next question becomes, who are the observers. Did they talk to anyone? Are these people who had an intimate knowledge of the crew selection process? Or are these just pundits who looked at this and said "Hey, Armstrong may be first because he's a civilian"? A huge part of history is also looking at who wrote this, and that excerpt is really lacking in that department. There is nothing to lend credit to this supposition, and indeed based on the comments that have poured out over the years since 1969 in interviews, books and accounts blow this away. You can speculate all you want about Armstrong's status as a civilian being the factor that made him first on the Moon, but thus far nothing can confirm it. Just like, you can speculate FDR knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked. There is nothing to back it up that is credible. You can take the ultimate cynic's view I suppose, and say "Well, everybody at NASA from the time just won't own up to having Neil get out first because he was a civilian." But don't expect to win any debates with that line of thinking. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 02-18-2011 02:42 AM
I'm not trying to win a debate. Please read carefully and understand what I'm trying to say. There is this also from a Reuters interview (via the Windsor Star) - "Then they realized, 'No, we'll send two out.' There was a lot of uncertainty in the planning people. But all that newspaper stuff about a civilian versus a member of the military was just cooked up as a possible reason for hesitation on the part of NASA." Perhaps it might just make the point I've been trying to make from the outset. There was talk about the wisdom of having a civilian out first. I am not saying that it played a major or even minor part in the decision to make Armstrong first. Only that there was talk about it.You may not like it - but it is an historical fact. |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2178
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 02-18-2011 07:12 AM
There is also talk that Neil exerted his commander's authority to go out first. That talk doesn't make the statement accurate. |
Skylon
Member Posts: 277
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 02-18-2011 03:15 PM
Your quote seems to support that Buzz Aldrin does not believe Neil making the first step was a result of him being a civilian. In your quote, he calls it "cooked up as a possible reason for hesitation on the part of NASA." IE: It was something tossed around by outside observers.I never denied there was talk about it, but the talk was clearly outside NASA and from observers only, who would have had no direct knowledge of the thought processes of those who decreed "Armstrong gets out first." In essence, they espoused viewpoints that cannot be supported, and have indeed been contradicted by the various accounts over the years. If that's your viewpoint as well, and has been from the beginning I have no clue how the heck this spun around this far and will call it at that. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 02-20-2011 07:06 AM
Interesting to keep in mind that during the egress rehearsal on Apollo 9, it was the LMP Schweickart who went out, not the CDR McDivitt. One could infer from that that the plan at the time was for the LMP to go out first, since McDivitt could just as easily have done the EVA. And although zero G might have made it somewhat easier than in lunar gravity, it didn't seem like the ability of the LMP to get past the CDR and egress was an issue at the time. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-20-2011 07:53 AM
As mentioned earlier in this thread, McDivitt wasn't wearing a PLSS backpack; he was connected to the lunar module's environmental control subsystem (ECS). When Schweickart suited and exited, McDivitt was positioned to the right of the LM at the LMP station. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 02-20-2011 07:56 AM
Ah, missed that. Thanks for the clarification. |
Space Cadet Carl
Member Posts: 225
From: Lake Orion, Michigan
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 02-20-2011 08:28 AM
I'm fascinated by all the varying information posted here regarding the decision to have Armstrong exit the LM first. It's striking me as a sort of Grassy Knoll/Kennedy Assassination thing where we might NEVER know 100 percent for sure why Armstrong got the nod. It is a fact that Armstrong has a much more low key demeanor than Buzz. Don't know if that figured into the decision or not. I for one will certainly never know... LOL! |
MikeSpace
unregistered
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posted 03-22-2011 09:13 PM
Just re-read the chapter "First Out" in "First Man" and the thread again and I'm not sure if this was mentioned yet. I'm probably wrong...It says that after successful completion of Apollo 9, a meeting was held in Houston with Deke Slayton, Bob Gilruth, George Low, and Chris Kraft. Kraft says: We called a meeting to specifically discuss the matter... look, we just knew damn well the first guy on the the Moon was going to be a Lindbergh. He's going to be the guy for time immemorial... known as the guy that set foot on the Moon first. And who do we want that to be? The first man... would be a legend beyond Lindbergh, beyond any soldier or politician or inventor."It should be Neil Armstrong. Neil was Neil. Calm, quiet and absolute confidence. We all knew he was the Lindbergh type, He had no ego. Hansen, from same chapter: In fact, none of the four men present... ever felt comfortable confessing the truth about what was said there. The above omits a lot so reading the chapter for oneself is recommended. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-22-2011 09:44 PM
In fact, the only account of that meeting ever occurring, whether written or relayed to others, is in Kraft's book "Flight," from which Hansen quotes. Suffice to say (and without meaning any disrespect), "Flight" contains a number of passages that have been described by other historians as 'history as Kraft thought it should be, rather than as it really was.' That said, it's now in the written record as offered by a participant so barring any evidence that proves the meeting did not occur (or Kraft for some reason retracting it), it will forever be part of the narrative on this topic. |
Space Cadet Carl
Member Posts: 225
From: Lake Orion, Michigan
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 03-23-2011 01:32 PM
Well stated, Robert. So unless someone can refute Chris Kraft's account of that early 69' meeting between Slayton, Gilruth, Low and Kraft... it goes on record as the day the decision was made between the four of them to let Neil go first. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 03-23-2011 02:28 PM
Do we have a date for the Deke Slayton, Bob Gilruth, George Low, and Chris Kraft meeting? After 'Apollo 9' is a bit vague, especially as we have a date of between 11th and 14th April for the Armstrong announcement.More to the point - is there any record (memo) in the NASA records for such a meeting. The only reference I can find is this - June 27 1969
How the decision was reached on who would be the first man to step out onto the moon was reported in a letter by ASPO Manager George M. Low: Some time during the middle of the night, I had a call from Associated Press informing me that they had a story that Neil Armstrong had pulled rank on Buzz Aldrin to be the first man on the surface of the moon. They wanted to know whether it was true and how the decision was reached concerning who would get out of the LM first.To the best of my recollection, I gave the following information: a. There had been many informal plans developed during the past several years concerning the lunar timeline. These probably included all combinations of one man out versus two men out, who gets out first, etc. b. There was only one approved plan and that was established 2 to 4 weeks prior to our public announcement of this planning. I believe that this was in April 1969 c. The basic decision was made by my Configuration Control Board. It was based on a recommendation by the Flight Crew Operations Directorate. I am sure that Armstrong had made an input to this recommendation, but he, by no means, had the final say. The CCB decision was final. |
MikeSpace
unregistered
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posted 03-23-2011 04:43 PM
No exact date given, and in the last paragraph of said chapter, Hansen: Buzz never knew the first thing about the Gilruth-Slayton-Low-Kraft meeting until Chris Kraft wrote about it in his autobiography, nor did Armstrong. It then concludes Neil "has remained convinced that engineering consideration related to the interior layout of the LM played a primary role in determining who should be the first man out."Armstrong then defends that all six missions did it that way, including Apollo 14, saying Al would never agree to something if it wasn't the right way to do it. But then Bean said all you have to do is switch before donning the PLSS... Like I said, I recommend re-reading for oneself. Your mileage may vary. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3160
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 03-23-2011 06:31 PM
The "Gemini argument" (the side-kick went out, so why shouldn't the Apollo side-kick go out first?) is a complete red herring. On Gemini, one went out, one stayed inside. The spacecraft was in flight and needed to be monitored and kept under control if something went wrong (spontaneous thruster fault?). That was the commander's responsibility, so of course the pilot went out. On the Moon, the lunar module was powered down and motionless. Both men would be going out, leaving the LM to look after itself. The commander was Numero Uno, and so of course should have gone out first. Rank has its privileges.On Edit: It occurs to me that my argument is supported by the situation on Apollo 9. The spacecraft was still in active flight. The commander's place was at the controls, so the LMP went out. QED |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 03-24-2011 10:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Blackarrow:
It occurs to me that my argument is supported by the situation on Apollo 9. The spacecraft was still in active flight.
Just a thought, well a couple actually.Can one claim that the LM was really in active flight still attached to the CSM? And second - wouldn't the CDR have been occupying the LMP's position to allow the LMP easy access to the hatch bearing in mind the way the hatch opened? |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3160
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 03-27-2011 01:20 PM
Even in one-sixth gravity on the Moon, the interior of the LM was cramped, with little room for manoeuvring, let alone changing positions. In Earth orbit on Apollo 9, McDivitt and Schweickart were weightless and it was relatively easy for McDivitt to float up towards the transfer hatch to let Schweickart squeeze past. If there had been a problem during the EVA, McDivitt would have had access to the full range of LM controls. And although the LM and CSM were docked, Scott's ability to react if something had happened during the EVA was greatly limited by the fact that he was conducting his own stand-up EVA. It is made clear in the Apollo 9 Press Kit that the LM was in a powered-up condition during the EVA, so I again say that the commander's place was at his ship's controls. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-29-2011 09:36 AM
The only information I would take seriously regarding decisions made during the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs would be from the people who were actually there at the time calling the shots. Everything else is just speculation. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 03-29-2011 10:21 AM
You mean that the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo Chronologies are fiction?  |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 03-29-2011 01:57 PM
There is some mention of this in the book, "Rocket Men: The Epic Story of the First Men on the Moon", by Craig Nelson.Three interesting things are mentioned. 1) It is said that Mike Collins remembers how Rusty Schweickart had to climb all over James McDivitt to get out of the hatch for his EVA. 2) There is mention of one manager acknowledging that the first man out would be a hero and that Neil would be better suited as that hero than Buzz. He talked to other managers and so that thought grew. 3) A story is retold of how at a meeting the question was asked, 'what would happen after they had landed'? After describing various tasks Buzz finally said, something along the lines that he would then egress the spacecraft and step onto the moon. To which Neil replied something along the lines of, no you won't Buzz, I will be the first out. This final point is the first time I have ever heard mention of Neil actually saying that he was making a decision on the matter and was going to say that he was going to be first out. In my opinion, what has been written on this topic so far is not the full story, who can guess at who said what behind closed doors. For all we know Neil might have either been asked by senior managers or gone to senior managers to settle the matter. |
Skylon
Member Posts: 277
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 03-29-2011 02:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by robsouth:
A story is retold of how at a meeting the question was asked, 'what would happen after they had landed'? After describing various tasks Buzz finally said, something along the lines that he would then egress the spacecraft and step onto the moon. To which Neil replied something along the lines of, no you won't Buzz, I will be the first out.
There is some anecdotes in the narrative to suggest Armstrong was assuming he was making the first steps. Mike Collins I believe wrote that in the early sims, Armstrong was operating on the assumption he was getting out first, regardless of what any mission planning said. Others have said Armstrong was not committed to anything. But, as far as I understand, it was Aldrin who forced the issue with management, going directly to George Low, who bounced it back to Deke Slayton. Slayton makes it sound like it was his call, that Armstrong be first. This doesn't need to conflict with Chris Kraft's recollections. It's possible when it bounced back to Slayton, being fully aware of the ramifications of his decision he went to Gilruth and Kraft and said "I'm going to recommend Neil gets out first." Just to confirm his decision with his superiors. Kraft also may have operated on a different criteria than Slayton. While Slayton may have felt Armstrong should be first base on seniority, while others believed it should be due to his personality. They reached the same decision, but for different reasons. |
golddog
Member Posts: 210
From: australia
Registered: Feb 2008
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posted 03-30-2011 01:45 AM
I have never read of Mike Collins writing that Armstrong assumed he would get out first. In "Carrying the Fire", Collins writes that some early simulations showed the LMP getting out first, but that was later changed to the CDR. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 03-30-2011 02:17 AM
As I posted earlier Gilruth was clear that the decision was made, and I quote - "The basic decision was made by my Configuration Control Board. It was based on a recommendation by the Flight Crew Operations Directorate. I am sure that Armstrong had made an input to this recommendation, but he, by no means, had the final say. The CCB decision was final."Who were the members of this Board? Was this the meeting referred to in other posts in this thread? On edit - somewhere in the back of my mind I have a recollection of reading that about the time the 'first out' decision was made, Collins had to separate Armstrong and Aldrin as the two were 'discussing' this rather heatedly in a locker room. Does anyone have further information on this? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-30-2011 07:02 AM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
Gilruth was clear that the decision was made, and I quote
The quote you quote was by George Low, not Gilruth. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 03-30-2011 09:25 AM
Yes Robert - you are quite correct. Another senior moment on my part.  |
Skylon
Member Posts: 277
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 03-30-2011 03:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by golddog:
In "Carrying the Fire", Collins writes that some early simulations showed the LMP getting out first, but that was later changed to the CDR.
According to Collins, in "Carrying the Fire": Originally, some of the early check lists were written to show a co-pilot first exit, but Neil ignored these and exercised his commander's prerogative to crawl out first. He then mentions it was settled in April, but makes no mention of who decided it, or why. |
golddog
Member Posts: 210
From: australia
Registered: Feb 2008
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posted 03-31-2011 02:48 AM
That was my point. |
Skylon
Member Posts: 277
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 03-31-2011 02:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by golddog:
That was my point.
I don't follow. I'd say based on Collins' perspective Armstrong, before a formal decision was made, operated under the possibility that he would get out first if he ignored the earliest checklists and "exercised his commander's prerogative to crawl out first." In regards to Moonrogue's comment about Collins' story about an outburst between Armstrong and Aldrin, Collines didn't write about one in a locker room, nor did he have to separate them. According to Collins, the night after a landing sim in which Armstrong crashed the LM, Aldrin started vocally complaining about the events with Collins. After some drinks, Aldrin's complaints got louder until they awoke Armstrong. Collins excused himself, leaving the two of them to sort it out. Whatever happened, Collins assumed his crew mates worked it out as the next day, all seemed normal. |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1332
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 03-31-2011 03:41 PM
Originallty the checklists Grummen went by simply showed astronaut 'A' and astronaut 'B' preforming EVA tasks.It was never described who 'A' was, or who 'B' was. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 03-31-2011 04:09 PM
Just one small point. In my post I did NOT attribute the story of an altercation between Armstrong and Aldrin to Collins. All I said was that there were allegations that such a confrontation had taken place. |
JasonB
Member Posts: 1091
From:
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 04-04-2011 08:09 AM
I wouldn't call that an "altercation" or anything even remotely like that. I mean what else would anyone do in their position but both want to be the first person to step on the moon? The fact that the procedure wasn't clear, or reversed in Aldrin's favor at first, just made things worse. Honestly I'm surprised by how well Aldrin took it. I don't think too many people would have taken it as well as he did. Did he get upset or try to get the procedure in his favor? Of course he did. Did Armstrong exert some sort of influence to be the first out? Of course he did. They both did what every other person in the world would have done in that situation. i mean who wouldn't want to be the first? But I think they both acted very well about it. As far as the decision, I would imagine it simply went to Armstrong being the Commander so he should get the honor. I still think they should have had both of them come out and step off together. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3160
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 04-04-2011 06:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JasonB:
I still think they should have had both of them come out and step off together.
This was real life, not Hollywood. |
JasonB
Member Posts: 1091
From:
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 04-04-2011 07:11 PM
Yes, thank you, I'm well aware of the physical placement of the Apollo 11 Moon landing, but since this was a unique historical moment, why not have them both step off at once? Would have eliminated one man getting an absurd amount of attention that he says he doesnt really want or deserve simply because the other guy was sitting 15 feet away from him. I wouldnt do it for the other missions but for this one I could see doing it simply to keep from one man getting most all the attention. Seems like it would have been good PR too. If there was some sort of physical limitation to this please let me know(and if I'm getting too far off topic please move this).Also I think the fact that Aldrin didnt try to dive out of the LM before Armstrong shows he has more restraint than most |
328KF
Member Posts: 1251
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 04-04-2011 10:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JasonB:
I'm surprised by how well Aldrin took it. I don't think too many people would have taken it as well as he did. Did he get upset or try to get the procedure in his favor? Of course he did. Did Armstrong exert some sort of influence to be the first out? Of course he did. They both did what every other person in the world would have done in that situation.
If Armstrong had a burning desire to be known as the first to step on the moon at the time of the flight, he has never made a point of that in the decades since. In fact, he has gone out of his way to downplay the significance of that as opposed to both of them being the first to land on the moon.This simple fact would suggest that he gave no serious consideration to the matter nor exerted any influence in 1969. Aldrin, on the other hand, has throughout the years made comments and written passages in his books that might suggest some effort to secure the honor for himself and some animosity over being "second." Unfortunately some of these actions have been spun into something more significant than they may have been perceived at the time, and made their way into other books and even movies. I think Armstrong has done great service to the historical issue and to his crewmate by maintaining the focus on the landing rather than the first step. As a side note, if Constellation were not canceled and we eventually ended up landing on the moon with an international crew, that "Hollywood" procedure might have come true. In the tradition of the ISS, every new module was usually first entered by a U.S. astronaut and a representative from the country that built the module. I have no doubt that in the spirit of international cooperation, if a multi-nation crew lands anywhere in the near future (which is not likely) some way will be found to have more than one crewmember take that "next step" at once. |
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