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Author
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Topic: Canceled Apollo missions crew assignments
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Spaceflyer
Member Posts: 205
From: Nauheim, Germany
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 06-25-2004 05:30 AM
   
Which astronauts were assigned for Apollo 18, Apollo 19 and Apollo 20? |
Cougar20
Member Posts: 93
From:
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 06-25-2004 08:19 AM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but on the rotation Deke Slayton had setup, wouldn't Dick Gordon's back up crew from Apollo 15 on 18, Fred Haise's from Apollo 16 on 19, and Alan Bean's back up crew on Apollo 17 be on 20. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3448
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 06-25-2004 09:55 AM
"Deke" has the listings. But it was Gordon, Brand and Schmitt for Apollo 18; Haise stated it was himself, Pogue (CMP) and Carr (LMP) who had trained for four months.As for Apollo 20, that has been the subject of much debate and speculation. But I've found that, with a few exceptions, the CMP of a mission, if back in rotation, would be a backup three missions later, and then an LMP three missions after that (which is why Deke said Collins would have commanded Apollo 17, if asked.) Therefore: - CMP Apollo 7 - Eisele - would have been on Apollo 13
- Apollo 8 - Lovell - would have been on Apollo 14, and was in fact assigned to that mission before switching with Shepard
- Apollo 9 - Scott - became LMP on Apollo 15
- Apollo 10 - Young - LMP on Apollo 16
- Apollo 12 - Gordon - would have been LMP on Apollo 18
- Apollo 14 - Roosa was the CMP. Would have he become the LMP on Apollo 20? They broke the "rule" on Apollo 19. As Apollo 20 would have been the last moon mission, would they have let the astronauts who later went to Skylab — say Weitz and Lousma (who was Group 5 and thus had "seniority,") Kerwin, Garriott or Gibson have one of the slots? What about Lind or McCandless, the other Group 5 members who hadn't flown?
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carmelo
Member Posts: 1060
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 06-25-2004 10:59 AM
- Apollo 17: Cernan, Evans, Engle;
- Apollo 18: Gordon, Brand, Schmitt
- Apollo 19: Haise, Pogue, Carr
- Apollo 20 Roosa (or Conrad), Weitz, Lousma or Roosa, Lousma, Lind
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albatron
Member Posts: 2798
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 06-25-2004 11:36 AM
Weitz and Lousma have both confirmed to me they were never (at least advised or aware of) in the rotation for Apollo 20, and certainly not 18 or 19. This came about with the patch going around eBay for Apollo 20. A nice colorful patch but Lousma felt it historically inaccurate. He had no problem with it, just felt it was inaccurate. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1060
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 06-25-2004 12:42 PM
The patch, it's clearly a fake. Lousma on Apollo 18 (likely CMP) is highly probable (on the web in all list of crews for cancelled Apollo mission to 18 at 20, Lousma is CMP or LMP for Apollo 20). |
dtemple
Member Posts: 741
From: Longview, Texas, USA
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 06-27-2004 01:48 PM
If you are the superstitious type, then history happened the best possible way in regard to the cancelation of Apollo 19. It would have been the 13th manned Apollo mission with Fred Haise of Apollo 13 as its commander. Anyone who suffers from triskaidekaphobia should be thankful this one did not fly! |
Matt T
Member Posts: 1369
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001
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posted 06-27-2004 02:49 PM
And don't forget that Dick Gordon's Apollo 18 crew would have been the thirteenth Apollo crew, and Gordon would've been the thirteenth moonwalker... |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3448
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 06-27-2004 03:20 PM
And "Richard Gordon" has 13 letters. Doggone those Majik-12 operatives... |
Headshot
Member Posts: 940
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 12-14-2012 12:41 PM
I wonder what Deke Slayton would have done if Schmitt had insisted on flying with Gordon and Brand and refused to fly with Cernan and Evans. As I recall, Schmitt was the only scientist who had started any type of real training. It might have caused real problems for NASA to start training another scientists to fly with Cernan and Evans. Time and money were something that Apollo could not afford to waste as the program was winding down. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1576
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 12-14-2012 01:06 PM
If Schmitt were that insane, I can envision Slayton saying "okay" and Joe Engle today being a veteran of three missions instead of two. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 940
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 12-14-2012 02:12 PM
NASA Headquarters had decreed that a scientist fly in the LMP (Engle's) spot. I do not believe that Schmitt knew about the edict, but Slayton did and he had to follow management's instructions.So Engle was not going to be on that flight period. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1576
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 12-14-2012 02:46 PM
The way I read it NASA management wanted Schmitt specifically, because of his lunar geology bona fides. He was trained and ready to go. I do not believe, however, that they would have delayed the mission in your scenario in order to select and train another scientist if it wasn't going to be Schmitt. Flying Schmitt on Apollo 17 instead of Engle made sense and was easily done. Insisting another scientist be brought up to speed and the time and effort that would entail, would not have in my opinion. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 44622
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-14-2012 03:38 PM
Schmitt, in my recent interview with him, said that NASA HQ was insisting on him flying on Apollo 15 at the time Apollo 18 was canceled. Slayton fought against that because he wanted Schmitt to serve on a backup crew first.Schmitt acknowledges that that was the right thing to do because serving as backup taught him how to fly Apollo. He wouldn't have been (as) prepared to go if slipped directly into a prime crew. Given Slayton's reasoning, and Schmitt's experience, I think it would be dubious at best that Slayton would have agreed to putting another scientist on the prime crew without first a rotation on a backup crew. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 940
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 12-14-2012 04:03 PM
Getting back to my original question/point. I am still curious to know what Slayton could have done had Schmitt demanded that Gordon and Brand fly with him. Schmitt had (although he did not know it) an amazing amount of leverage. I wonder if Slayton would have dumped Cernan and Evans had Schmitt backed him against a wall? Although we will never know for certain, it is still interesting to speculate. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1060
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 12-17-2012 10:59 AM
For Apollo 19, Haise would have been commander also if Apollo 13 was a success? In other words can Haise go twice on the moon?All "what if" on Apollo 19 and 20 tell that on 19 the crew would have been Haise, Pogue, Carr, and on 20 Roosa, Lousma, Lind (or Roosa, Weitz, Lousma), but again, if Apollo 13 had been a success, is not more probable Ken Mattingly (or John Swigert as the case) as commander on 19? |
BBlatcher
Member Posts: 57
From: Savannah, GA, USA
Registered: Aug 2011
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posted 12-17-2012 07:23 PM
According to Andrew Chaikin's "A Man on the Moon," Schmitt asked Dick Gordon to let him talk to Slayton. Gordon said no. Schmitt did it anyway, pleading to keep Gordon and him together. Obviously that didn't work. As to Haise getting to walk on the Moon twice, that was the plan before 18-20 were canceled. Supposedly the rule was that Commanders couldn't go twice (Pete Conrad pushed for it and was flatly told no), but LMP's could, in order to take advantage of their lunar experience. Not sure why Commanders weren't reused, but I'm guessing it just seemed unfair to command two lunar landing missions with so many astronauts in the program. So yeah, had everything worked out, Haise and possibly Ed Mitchell could have walked on the moon twice in 19 and 20. But Mitchell is a question mark, as some higher ups weren't totally happy with him, so it might have gone to Roosa. It's all speculation. I am curious why Alan Bean, the LMP of Apollo 12, didn't seem to be in line to Command a later Apollo mission. I'm guessing there was no way in hell Dick Gordon, the CMP of 12, was going to let that happen! But who knows. |
Duke Of URL
Member Posts: 1316
From: Syracuse, NY
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 12-23-2012 08:51 PM
All of this infighting doesn't seem to be in character for these gentlemen. There were three Skylab missions, ASTP for a total of 12 seats in the pipeline. Also, was the shuttle on the boards? There wouldn't any reason to expect the delays that slipped the first flight to 1981. |
Skylon
Member Posts: 289
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 12-23-2012 11:59 PM
It depends when you were talking about. At the time the last Apollo crews were named Skylab was the only certainty looking ahead. ASTP remained hypothetical until 1972 I believe. I don't think I ever saw any expectations for Shuttle flights to begin earlier than 1979. Even that would be a substantial wait for a flight. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1576
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 12-24-2012 09:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by BBlatcher:
Supposedly the rule was that Commanders couldn't go twice (Pete Conrad pushed for it and was flatly told no), but LMP's could, in order to take advantage of their lunar experience.
It's likely the original plan, up until three days before Apollo 13's launch, was for Ken Mattingly to rotate into the backup Apollo 16 CDR slot, then on to CDR of Apollo 19. It must have added greatly to Mattingly's extreme frustration when he was grounded, as I'm sure he could do the math before then. Had Apollo 13 succeeded with Swigert as CMP, AND had Apollos 18 and 19 not been cancelled, would he have gone on to command a lunar landing crew in Mattingly's place? We'll never know... |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1060
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 12-24-2012 08:16 PM
Swigert? I don't think.Is probable that if CDR could not go twice on the moon, LMP could. So Fred Haise is probably the man that lost the moon twice. |
Scottvirgil
New Member Posts: 8
From: London UK
Registered: Aug 2019
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posted 12-22-2019 05:09 PM
I was reading Fred Haise's interview on the Johnson Space Center Oral History site where he states (logically) that he was slated to command Apollo 19. He stated that his CMP would have been Stu Roosa.I can't understand why Haise would leapfrog Roosa in seniority, having been the lunar module pilot on Apollo 13, whilst Roosa had the more senior role on Apollo 14. It also seems harsh on Roosa, as he'd have been twice to the moon without landing. Does anyone have any comments? Editor's note: Threads merged. |
AstroCasey
Member Posts: 56
From:
Registered: Feb 2019
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posted 12-22-2019 06:31 PM
I did a bit of research on this matter. The Apollo 19 prime crew would have consisted of Fred Haise (commander), William Pogue (command module pilot), and Gerald Carr (lunar module pilot). Due to the rotation, this meant Haise would have been the Apollo 16 backup commander, which he was. However, things changed when Apollo 19 was canceled. The Apollo 16 backup crew was now basically a dead-end assignment unless something happened to the prime crew. Roosa and Mitchell from Apollo 14 were then assigned as backups with Haise. Pogue and Carr got Skylab assignments because they never had an opportunity to serve on a prime crew. Had something else happened to Mattingly, as in Apollo 13, Roosa possibly could have been command module pilot on both Apollo 14 and Apollo 16. However, his backup assignment with Haise was mostly a result of Apollo budget cuts. That is what I got out of all this. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1060
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 12-23-2019 10:36 AM
We know that Haise it would have been commander on Apollo 19.But the real big question is, if Apollo 13 had been a full success, Haise would have Apollo 19, walking twice on the moon, or the role of commander would have gone to Swigert (or Mattingly, without German measles)? |
ashot
Member Posts: 28
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 12-24-2019 09:47 AM
Talking about of Apollo 19 and 20: I wonder whether the scientific community was going to push to have one more scientist to fly a lunar landing mission. Perhaps, a natural choice would have been Anthony England (he was another geologist, wasn't he?) If we assume that Apollo 16 backup crew of Haise, Pogue, and Carr at least in Slayton's mind was targeted to become prime on Apollo 19, this still left 20 LMP seat as a possibility for another scientist (England?)
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carmelo
Member Posts: 1060
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 12-24-2019 04:34 PM
Is possible. Maybe England on 19 and Don Lind on 20. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 940
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 12-24-2019 08:10 PM
I recall reading somewhere that Don Lind would have been LMP on Apollo 20. Unfortunately I don't recall the source. |
ashot
Member Posts: 28
From:
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 12-25-2019 10:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Headshot:
I recall reading somewhere that Don Lind would have been LMP on Apollo 20. Unfortunately I don't recall the source.
Lousma in one of his interviews stated his specialization was the LM, that's why he guessed that in Apollo 20 he COULD have been assigned as LMP (don't have the reference handy, unfortunately.) Perhaps, this is the source of confusion for roles in Roosa-Lind-Lousma "crew" many believe could fit Apollo 20. However, as no "original" backup crew (unlike Haise-Pogue-Carr) was ever selected by Slayton, all this is and will forever stay still a pure guess...
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Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1676
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 07-29-2020 03:30 PM
Any thoughts on who might have been the backup crews for the cancelled missions? |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1576
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 07-29-2020 05:37 PM
One possibility could have been the crew that flew the previous mission. (Cernan, Evans, Engle as Apollo 17 prime crew then Apollo 18 backup crew, and so on.) |
Space Cadet Carl
Member Posts: 238
From: Lake Orion, Michigan
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 07-30-2020 12:15 PM
Whenever I see LM-13 sitting inside the Cradle of Aviation museum on Long Island, New York, I imagine it landing inside Copernicus Crater on Apollo 19. |
perineau
Member Posts: 283
From: FRANCE
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 07-30-2020 12:47 PM
...that's where it belonged. |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1676
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 07-30-2020 03:38 PM
It makes sense that the previous crew becomes the backup for the next flight, 17 for 18 with your example.I think we've had a debate before about whether it was better to have more lunar landings versus the value of younger generations seeing the actual hardware. |
Skylon
Member Posts: 289
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 07-31-2020 10:10 AM
I think Slayton wanted to stagger it a bit more. For example, the Apollo 15 crew was supposed to be Apollo 17's backup crew before they were grounded in the stamp scandal. So, fly, then skip one and backup. But that scandal probably would have led to the scenario you describe. |
Graves
New Member Posts: 3
From: Pearlington MS
Registered: Jan 2019
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posted 08-03-2020 02:01 PM
Mr Fred Haise told me that one of the heartaches of Apollo 19 is that it would have been the first time all of the astronauts on the mission were hired for Apollo, rather than including one from the Mercury or Gemini programs. Also, Haise, Pogue and Carr did sit down and discuss their desires for the mission patch, and while it was never officially submitted to NASA for approval, they have the patch they intended to submit, which has been discussed here before. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1060
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 08-04-2020 07:03 AM
Poor Fred Haise, the only man that could walk on the moon twice and he never went (on the surface). Also add the original STS-2 rescue Skylab mission cancelled.But if we assume (in a better timeline): - Apollo 18: Gordon, Brand, Schmitt
- Apollo 19: Haise (second moon mission), Pogue, Carr
- Apollo 20: Roosa, Weitz, Lousma
How does change Skylab program crew assignment? I can speculate: - Skylab II: Conrad, McCandless, Kerwin
- Skylab III: Bean, Musgrave, Garriott
- Skylab IV: Schweickart (or Cunningham), Lind, Lenoir
- ASTP: Stafford, Slayton, Crippen (?)
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dtemple
Member Posts: 741
From: Longview, Texas, USA
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 08-04-2020 12:15 PM
In regard to the hypothetical ASTP crew, I think Evans rather than Crippen would have flown on it. This is because he was on the actual backup crew. Still, in the hypothetical situation, Evans may have still been on the backup crew. By the way, Lousma was also on the ASTP backup crew. |
Maia12
Member Posts: 12
From: Portugal
Registered: Nov 2015
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posted 08-04-2020 12:22 PM
Do you believe that if Apollo 13 was successful, Fred Haise would still command Apollo 19? Why not Jack Swigert? |
dtemple
Member Posts: 741
From: Longview, Texas, USA
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 08-04-2020 01:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Graves:
...they have the patch they intended to submit, which has been discussed here before.
I performed a search for the Apollo 19 patch discussion, but did not find it. The closest on that topic was the patch being sold by the Infinity Science Center. Please direct me to that discussion. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 44622
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-04-2020 01:26 PM
I don't know what past discussion is being referenced, but from another topic (Patches for the cancelled Apollo missions), here is Haise's comment about a patch from Jerry Carr's autobiography: The development of spacecraft names and such things as a crew patch was something to work on after the Apollo 19 crew was officially named. |
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