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Author
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Topic: Patches for the cancelled Apollo missions
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rje71
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posted 04-04-2010 11:07 PM
   
I am new here to the forum and my main interest in from the mid 70's back. I passed up the opportunity to add the recently produced canceled Apollo program patches (18, 19 and 20). I understand there is speculation about but was wondering if there were any place you might be able to track them down online? |
benguttery
Member Posts: 542
From: Fort Worth, TX, USA
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 04-05-2010 09:42 AM
Spacefacts.de: Cancelled Spaceflights |
rje71
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posted 04-05-2010 10:36 AM
Thanks for the link! Are these available to be purchased anywhere still? They were at one time but I missed that opportunity... |
andrewcli
Member Posts: 328
From: La Jolla, CA, USA
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 04-05-2010 11:30 AM
The patches that you are referring to were made by Randy Hunt and are considered "fantasy patches." Neither NASA or the astronauts approved them. Other than Apollo 18, I don't think the remaining crews for 19, and 20 were officially assigned and this was based on the probable rotation schedule made by Slayton. Randy passed away a few years ago and his websites are no longer available. So what you see on the market is what there is left. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 589
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 04-05-2010 12:06 PM
I want to ask Fred Haise about the Apollo 19 patch when I meet him at the next autograph show. |
carl walker
Member Posts: 153
From: Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 04-06-2010 04:15 AM
I also find the whole 'what if' missions thing quite interesting. But I mentioned it to Vance Brand and Jerry Carr a few years ago at Autographica. They said they weren't aware of these Hunt patches so I sent them some links. I think they were only mildly interested, since these designs were created a long time after the real events, and as has been said above the crews weren't official or even working on these missions, so it is probably not worth chasing any more details. Nice idea though. |
rasorenson
Member Posts: 72
From: Santa Clara, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 04-06-2010 12:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rje71:
if there were any place you might be able to track them down online?
I'd be happy to send you the three embroidered patches I have for $5. |
rje71
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posted 04-07-2010 11:59 AM
I would like that VERY much... will send you a email.Is there any idea where the designs originated? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 26159
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-07-2010 12:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rje71:
Is there any idea where the designs originated?
They were the self-confessed invention of Randy Hunt, who lifted heavily (without permission) from the sketches produced for Apollo 17 by artist Robert McCall.I would liken them to the souvenir patches sold for the Mercury missions, but even less desirable for their exploitation of McCall. |
rje71
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posted 04-07-2010 12:19 PM
Thanks Robert for the input... my main interest in them is the era they would have represented. I am heavily interested in the late 60's early 70's... There was equipment produced for those flights though correct? What wasn't used for Skylab is on display at various museums? |
rasorenson
Member Posts: 72
From: Santa Clara, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 04-07-2010 12:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rje71:
There was equipment produced for those flights though correct?
A second flight worthy workshop (S-IVB) is on display at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, DC. You can walk through it. At one point there was talk about launching the second workshop. Didn't happen of course. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 589
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 04-07-2010 01:34 PM
If anyone has the book, "All We Did Was Fly To The Moon", then you can see the Apollo 18 patch design shown on page 92. |
KSCartist
Member Posts: 2430
From: Titusville, FL USA
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 04-07-2010 03:07 PM
As far as I can recall from when they were offered by Randy Hunt on his site (a few years ago), here are my observations: - Apollo 18 Stonehenge motif was "borrowed" from draft art by McCall for Apollo 17.
- Apollo 19 was borrowed from Michaelangelo
- Apollo 20 was borrowed from McCall's Apollo (15 era) postage stamp.
Creative uses of others artwork by Randy - which was a common theme. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 1922
From: Toms River, NJ,USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 04-07-2010 03:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rje71:
I am heavily interested in the late 60's early 70's... There was equipment produced for those flights though correct?
The Apollo 18 lunar lander is at the Cradle of Aviation Museum in Garden City, NY. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 589
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 04-07-2010 03:25 PM
He merely turned the Apollo 18 and Apollo 19 patches into embroided patches to sell using the designs of others. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 1922
From: Toms River, NJ,USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 04-07-2010 03:31 PM
Or, if you want to believe it - it's on the Internet, after all - the so-called canceled Apollo missions actually flew.There's a pic of the Apollo 20 patch on there. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 26159
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-07-2010 03:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by robsouth:
...there is no proof positive that he was the one that sat down and designed these two patches, albeit using other peoples work.
In an e-mailed discussion I had with him over acceptable (and unacceptable) use of others' artwork, Randy claimed that the Apollo 18-20 patches were his creation. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 589
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 04-07-2010 03:38 PM
Mr. Hunt didn't design the Apollo 19 patch and how can he claim to have designed the Apollo 18 patch when it's there for all to see as a Robert McCall design? |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3090
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 04-07-2010 04:17 PM
I've always liked the fictional Apollo 18 patch created by Michelle Evans of OCSS for a stage play. A great "2001" influence in the design.I've also thought the Hunt Apollo 19 design was quite similar to the fictional Apollo 18 patch used in James Michener's "Space" miniseries.  |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 26159
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-07-2010 04:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by robsouth:
I know who designed that patch
So who created it? And for what reason was it created? quote:
And how can he claim to have designed the Apollo 18 patch when it's there for all to see as a Robert McCall design?
If I recall his claim correctly, it was his idea to adapt the Apollo 17 art (for which he believed he didn't need permission to use) to represent Apollo 18, hence it was "his" creation. |
QuiGon Grin
Member Posts: 33
From: Rutherford, NJ 07070
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted 04-07-2010 08:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by QuiGon Grin:
Apollo 18 Stonehenge motif was "borrowed" from draft art by McCall for Apollo 17. Apollo 19 was borrowed from Michaelangelo.
I had read this thread earlier in the day, but waited until I got home to post. I was going to ask if anyone knew the symbolism behind the designs of these patches.I thought that the Apollo 18 patch looked familiar to me, however as it's not a very good representation of Stonehenge, in my opinion, that's why I couldn't place it. I picked up on the Michaelangelo symbolism in the Apollo 19 patch, but why only two stars and not three? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 26159
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-08-2010 02:19 AM
quote:
Originally posted by QuiGon Grin:
...however as it's not a very good representation of Stonehenge, in my opinion, that's why I couldn't place it.
McCall's original art had a much clearer representation of Stonehenge, as can be seen on the bottom of the Apollo 17 page from Gene Dorr's space patches website. |
hoorenz
Member Posts: 668
From: The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 04-08-2010 02:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by QuiGon Grin:
I picked up on the Michaelangelo symbolism in the Apollo 19 patch, but why only two stars and not three?
On Rob South's own (now apparently closed) website, there once was a very detailed description along with the design (did Hunt "borrow" it from him, maybe?). It stated that the two stars were included to acknowledge Haise's two Apollo 13 crewmates.I vaguely remember Robsouth once stating he had designed a "non flown but widely accepted as official" patch, but correct me if I am wrong!
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robsouth
Member Posts: 589
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 04-08-2010 01:34 PM
The significance of Michelangelo's hand of God is to highlight that just as this brought life to the form of man, Apollo brought life to the moon in the form of its crews. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 26159
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-08-2010 01:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by robsouth:
Mr. Hunt had zero input into their designs regardless of anything that he might have stated.
So whose (art)work did Randy lift, or who did he partner with to produce the physical patches? |
robsouth
Member Posts: 589
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 04-08-2010 01:53 PM
Forget Mr. Hunt he had nothing to do with the patches. All he did was copy someone else's work. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 26159
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-08-2010 01:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by robsouth:
All he did was copy someone else work.
Whose work did he copy? You seem to know, why the reluctance to share his/her name? |
robsouth
Member Posts: 589
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 04-08-2010 02:01 PM
Personally, I always thought it was Haise, Pogue and Carr's work. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 26159
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-08-2010 02:10 PM
If I recall correctly, Haise, Carr and Pogue have all gone on the record over the past few years to say that not only did they not have anything to do with the patch but, as they were never officially assigned to Apollo 19, they never discussed a patch as a crew, or as individuals.In fact, Haise is quoted in Carr's authorized biography as directly refuting the patch: The development of spacecraft names and such things as a crew patch was something to work on after the Apollo 19 crew was officially named. |
hoorenz
Member Posts: 668
From: The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 04-08-2010 02:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by robsouth:
Personally, I always thought it was Haise, Pogue and Carr's work.
So, the meaning of the two stars was just a guess? |
Playalinda
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posted 04-08-2010 03:23 PM
I think that Mr. Hunt had many other patches for sale. I always wondered if he was the artist of all those patches. I highly doubt it! I think the Skylab Astronaut Wives patch remake came from him. That means that he sold patches he had no copyright for. Did he simply copy good selling, or worse created not available patches? On edit: In fact I just found his old outdated web site. Yes, I remember he was fourgator on ebay. The question we should ask is: what company did he use to embroider all his patches? |
robsouth
Member Posts: 589
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 04-08-2010 04:14 PM
I designed the Apollo 18 and Apollo 19 patches. I wanted patches to go on my webpages for those missions so I designed them. The Apollo 18 patch was really just a slightly amended version of the Robert McCall patch. The Apollo 19 patch is all my own work. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 26159
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-08-2010 08:02 PM
So, that whole "I always thought it was Haise, Pogue and Carr's work" was your attempt at blurring the lines of history? |
andrewcli
Member Posts: 328
From: La Jolla, CA, USA
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 04-08-2010 08:15 PM
Before Randy passed away, I interacted with him frequently by email asking about his patches. I believe that he had access to embroidery machines and was able to make the patches on his own. Additionally, people would come to him and ask him to make patches and he would make an extra batch of patches for himself. He told me that after the initial work was completed, he would not
make anymore.I know that there has been a love/hate relationship with Randy over the years and I don't want to speak ill of the dead, but I am glad this has come to light. Good or bad, Randy had a niche and people were willing to pay for his patches, even today. So please, let's end this here and move on. |
Playalinda
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posted 04-08-2010 08:29 PM
I agree with Andrew, I don't think bad of Randy and because of him and later his wife (can't remember her first name) made it possible that many collectors filled some holes in their patch collection. His fantasy patches will be very collectible as time goes by. They will be getting old as the original/official ones.They will be hard too find patches as they were much more limited than souvenir patches that are sold in big quantities at the museums and visitor centers. |
Bill Hunt
Member Posts: 373
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-08-2010 08:32 PM
Seems like controvesy with regard to Randy boils up every six months or so around here. It's kind of sad. I agree, he did have his place in the community and made valuable contributions. Unfortunately, he was also his own worst enemy, and didn't help matters much with the way he delt and interacted with some of us. The ironic thing is, I still occasionally get angry e-mails from other patch collectors he had dealings with. Because of my last name, and usually after they see my posts on here, they think I'm related or have some connection to Randy (I'm not and don't). When in fact the truth is, my own dealings with Randy were just as frustrating as those of many others.Anyway, may the guy rest in peace. I wish only the best for his family and those who knew him. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 26159
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-08-2010 08:42 PM
I don't hold any ill feelings about Randy (may he rest in peace), though I do not agree that he served collectors well. If he had marketed his patches for what they were, rather than trying to represent them for what they weren't, I would have had greater respect for him (well that, and if he had respected others' property).My concern is not with Randy, but rather with his Apollo 18-20 patches (based on Rob South's, Robert McCall's and others' artwork). I feel that their history needs to be well-known and publicized among collectors such that they never end up in a museum, or book, or otherwise are confused with being true to history. If collectors enjoy them as a fantasy patch, so be it, but that is all they are and ever will be. |
rasorenson
Member Posts: 72
From: Santa Clara, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 04-08-2010 09:03 PM
I did not have troubles with Randy. All of my dealings over the years went well. While I appreciate - as a collector - knowing exactly what I hold in my hand, Randy offered a wide selection of patch designs that I don't think I'd have found anywhere else - at least with any convenience. I've enjoyed patch collecting for many years. I have a few I know are worth "more" and some that are worth-less. But Randy's offerings contributed an enjoyable breadth to my collection. Patches that I value regardless of their true origins. I do respect the need to honor artists' work and propriety. I want to also say that I missed 4gator after he passed. I had enjoyed adding pieces to my patch collecting and I wrote his wife to say so after he was gone. |
benguttery
Member Posts: 542
From: Fort Worth, TX, USA
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 04-09-2010 09:16 AM
Does anyone know the whereabouts of Randy's remaining patch stock? |
robsouth
Member Posts: 589
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 04-09-2010 12:18 PM
This is the version of Robert McCall's patch that I had on my website. My interpretation of the patch was this. Just as studying Stonehenge unlocks the mysteries of the past, the Apollo 18 crew hope that the rocks they return from the moon illuminate the mysteries of the moon. The eight stars represent the eight lunar landing missions from 11 to 18. |
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