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Author
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Topic: Why astronauts refuse to sign covers
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SRB
Member Posts: 258
From:
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 01-24-2004 10:11 PM
   
Michael Collins has made it clear he will not sign philatelic covers. His position again raises the question that has come up several times before why many Apollo astronauts still refuse to sign philatelic covers when they will sign many other things. I believe that Collins is doing the hobby a great service in signing. He has written the best book ever by an astronaut. He has willingly lent wonderful Apollo 11 memorabilia to the National Air and Space Museum for exhibition. He is a totally admirable and honest person. Yet he still seems to hold a grudge against stamp collectors that he doesn't hold against autograph collectors. I wonder why? I emailed Novaspace's Kim Poor about this and Kim replied "He's not the only one. Just be glad he's signing at all." Kim is basically right. I am glad that he has agreed to sign autographs again. But I would still love to know why he won't sign philatelic material. If asked directly, maybe he would explain his reasons. I bet he has thought about this. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 01-24-2004 10:31 PM
I'll tell you why: because Dave Scott took some covers to the moon, came back and gave them to a dealer in Germany. |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 01-24-2004 11:58 PM
The history behind these covers is fascinating. In 1972, the crew of Apollo 15 carried 400 envelopes to the moon and back without NASA authorization. A German dealer acquired part of them and sold them for $1500 each (a lot more money in 2004 dollars). The astronauts may not have personally profited from this, but NASA reprimanded them and it was a big deal. The history of this is the reason behind the ban on philatelic items, one we should be very mindful of. |
PRubin
Member Posts: 48
From: Great Neck, NY
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 01-25-2004 01:27 AM
In order to accommodate the requests and demands of many collectors of philatelic items, numerous astronauts routinely sign postal covers. Lovell, Aldrin, Cernan and other astronauts have in the past signed covers at Novaspace signings. Duke, Mitchell, Scott and others sign covers without reservation.Yes, the Apollo 15 incident influenced the future signing of philatelic items, but it did not stop Charlie Duke only one mission later from carrying covers onboard Apollo 16, which he signed and have been sold from time to time to collectors. Additionally, it did not stop astronauts from freely signing covers as evidenced by the many covers that are available for sale. |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4167
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 01-25-2004 04:10 AM
At Autographica in 2003, Al Worden intimated that the full history of the Apollo 15 "Sieger" covers is not yet known but would not go into detail. If my memory serves me right there was speculation about Al writing a book and the suggestion was that he might spill the beans then. |
spaceflori
Member Posts: 1499
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000
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posted 01-25-2004 07:13 AM
Having asked several astronauts myself in-person about their attitude towards covers and stamps most replied that they are sold commercially once they are signed, so they don't do it. |
Bob M
Member Posts: 1744
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 01-25-2004 08:56 AM
You can probably count on one hand the number of astronauts who won't sign covers and many of them when asked for a reason why they don't sign, as Florian stated, will use the reason that they are sold commercially. |
JasonB
Member Posts: 1091
From:
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 01-25-2004 09:02 AM
I think it might be (and I'm guessing here) that some of the astronauts still believe that covers are premium items. |
PRubin
Member Posts: 48
From: Great Neck, NY
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 01-25-2004 11:41 AM
In my discussions with many collectors and dealers I have heard that certain astronauts will decline to sign covers for many of the reasons already mentioned as well as for business reasons. One astronaut declined to sign covers because there were too many of his signed covers in the market and the price for them was minimal. By signing more he would just be increasing the supply. He wanted to be able to maintain the amount he charged at signings, so he declined to sign covers. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 01-25-2004 11:16 PM
In talking extensively with the astronauts we work with at Novaspace about covers, I've discovered a universal truth: Part of the personalities of these men is that they make a decision right or wrong, and they stick with it. It's a test-pilot thing, I think.Most, for whatever reasons have decided covers are bad, exchangeable as legal tender. "Someone's going to immediately profit if I sign this," they think. Truth is, of course, signed photos are more desirable (in the USA). I am slowly trying to change their minds, but have to be in a position of absolute trust, which takes time. The reasons have to do a lot with the Apollo 15 scandal, but does not fault the crew so much as the market, and the uproar. Second were probably insurance covers, which were touted (by NASA) as being liquid enough to provide big bucks for their families in the event of a catastrophe. Thirdly, I think the militancy of those who throw down FDCs at book signings, or make a big stink about not getting their covers signed only serve to reinforce astronauts' notions. Your reasons are sound. Your methods are not. I'm making some inroads. Be patient. |
eurospace
Member Posts: 2610
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 01-26-2004 09:23 AM
If the Apollo generation were biased against signing covers because of the so-called Apollo 15 moon cover undertaking, wouldn't the astronauts who were directly concerned be the first ones to never ever sign any cover again? However, the late Jim Irwin signed any cover just as well as photos, and I think Al Worden signed covers for many many years after his leaving NASA (he might still do this). I agree with the notion that Kim Poor also mentions - that there is a widespread erroneous perception that signed covers were more commercialized than other items, more expensive, more dangerous, whatsoever. The contrary is true. |
PRubin
Member Posts: 48
From: Great Neck, NY
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 01-26-2004 11:14 AM
Dave Scott appears to have no issues with signed covers. I recently received back an Apollo 15 crew patch cover signed by him. You would think he would be the last person to still be signing covers.Kim, it is great to get your comments on this topic. Since you deal with many astronauts in a commercial setting, I think that you are one of a select few who can actually set the record straight. I appreciate your comments as well as your ongoing efforts to change the views of some of the astronauts at your signings. As a collector of philatelic items, this is a welcomed development. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 01-27-2004 03:58 PM
There's a letter from Collins' assistant recently listed on eBay, dated 1983, that has him refusing signing covers.You cannot fault someone who has been consistent in his policy of not signing covers for 20 years. It's not as if Collins' policy regarding his recent signings is something he invented yesterday. |
JasonB
Member Posts: 1091
From:
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 01-27-2004 04:14 PM
I recall seeing a letter replying to an autograph request to Collins in 1973 saying Collins had stopped signing covers in 1972. I can't recall where I saw it, but I know that's what it said. So, apparently this has been his position for quite a while. Guess that was his way of marking the year I was born.  |
wharfrat57
Member Posts: 114
From: Heath, Ohio, United States
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted 05-01-2010 09:47 AM
How come some astronauts don't or won't sign covers? I'm just curious about them. Thanks for any input!Editor's note: Threads merged. |
Tykeanaut
Member Posts: 2212
From: Worcestershire, England, UK.
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 05-01-2010 09:47 AM
I believe some astronauts see covers as easy way for people to sell them commercially. Personally I don't understand this argument as anything that is signed can be sold on. Even now, I know Buzz Aldrin will not sign one. |
DChudwin
Member Posts: 1096
From: Lincolnshire IL USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 05-01-2010 09:48 AM
After the Apollo 15 mission, it was revealed that the crew carried covers to the moon for a German dealer, who later advertised the covers for sale. The crew was reprimanded after an investigation. The whole affair left a bad taste about covers with some astronauts. Covers were seen as a commercial commodity — which doesn't make sense since any autographed memorabilia can be traded or sold. Furthermore, at this time signed covers, with a few exceptions, are worth less than lithos or beta cloths or whatever. Both Buzz Aldrin and Mike Collins won't sign covers (of course, Neil won't sign anything at all). It is interesting that Dave Scott and Al Worden, who many feel were the victim of a witch-hunt about the Apollo 15 covers, do autograph covers at paid signings. Jim Irwin also did so before his death, including an appearance at a Space Unit meeting in 1986. |
wharfrat57
Member Posts: 114
From: Heath, Ohio, United States
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted 05-01-2010 09:49 AM
Yeah, I had read about the Apollo 15 episode. I actually won an auction down at the Astronaut Scholarship Autograph and Memorabilia Show last November with a signed cover from Al Worden's personal collection. He and Dave Scott both took photos with me and the cover. Some great guys those two.I just noticed that quite a few who sign for Novaspace won't sign covers. Wasn't really sure why. Thanks for the input. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 05-01-2010 03:03 PM
I think, in addition to Apollo 15, there is the recollection of "insurance covers" as being almost legal tender. Of course they weren't, but we never got the "chance" to demonstrate that.Most of the astronauts have a "test pilot" mentality, where they make a decision, and by God, they stick with it, right or wrong. That being said, you can reason with them. Gene Cernan wouldn't sign covers until we brought him to UACC Burbank. After years of reasoning, he saw the light. quote:
Originally posted by wharfrat57:
I just noticed that quite a few who sign for Novaspace won't sign covers.
"Quite a few" is an exaggeration. Only Aldrin and Collins refuse covers; and they refuse them not just when they sign for us, but also anywhere. |
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