posted 11-17-2001 12:11 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by uzzi69:

Can anyone in the group tell me a better way to obtain Mr. Armstrong's signature with a 100% guarantee? (besides having an unlikely successful personal encounter.)

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posted 11-18-2001 08:25 PM               

Im glad you realize none of this was directed at you as it is not nor was it ever intended that way.

Larry:

First let me thank you for the statement "usual suspects" in being vicious on this board. While nothing could be further from the truth, this also smacks of viciousness.

One of the ways people like to avoid dealing with issues is always countering with it being the competition who is unhappy. Well, I dont see any competing dealers in this thread - and it has nothing to do with that.

Also, you bring up his "professional dealings" by handling it directly instead of in a public forum. I'm a tad confused here. First off, no one has asked for any names of anyone who bought any items ergo no one is trying to embarrass anyone.

In this same regard, going public with your dealings of this goes a long way to enhancing your credibility. Doing it behind the scenes, does not look good and truly isnt professional.

He owes us NOTHING. Not a thing. But he certainly owes it to himself to address the issues that have been raised here. Its just good business.

No one here is suggesting hes a crook or knowingly frauded anyone. Not at all, and I do not, nor does anyone I know feel that way. However there are many questions unanswered here that affect the public who may or may not be a customer down the road. Personally I applaud (and applauded him in previous posts)him for the refunds. I think it was the right thing to do and it is a testament to him for doing this.

But you can't rest solely on that. Unless you sit on high and look down and think that's all the commoner needs. I dont think its that either, but again, perception?

And a last thought about "viciousness", hmmm.....the comment about the strap to Leon and Joe? A dig. Not that its particulary relevant.

In summation, I think he offers some wonderful items, does a wonderful job, and yes that is 2% of his business that he did the right thing with. However ALSO in this business, reputation is 99.9999% of the deal. That 2% has caused him a lot of problems, problems that ALL of us feel he can rectify were he to discuss this here or somewhere. But if he doesn't feel it's necessary, and obviously you dont think so either, then thats great! Im sure that will make many more items available to you. Of COURSE that's not your intent, but it will be the net result.

Hey I just want the guy to clear up some questions. Questions legitimately asked with NO viciousness that we ALL feel will help HIM - so he can grow in this field. He is new to it after all.

Best,

posted 11-20-2001 09:45 PM               

I will reply to you, and then give this tattered thread a rest.

I buy from Peachstate, and will continue to do so. So will other "serious" collectors that I know, for the following reasons (and I know quite a few, having dealt with many collectors while building my collection over the past several years).

The majority of the autograph material, and extraordinary flown artifacts that Dave sells, originate directly from the astronauts, or from a source that Dave has first-hand knowledge of.

Quite simply, Dave gets first shot at many of the best items.

Dave then sets a fair price for his items, without resorting to questionable gimmickry such as "reverse auctions." In fact, many consider him a true wholesaler, as his pricing is so competitive.

He also issues a Bill of Sale, and a quality written guarantee, unlike some of his critics on this list who don't (and they are competitors, even though they may not necessarily be full-time dealers).

One of Dave's critics on this thread even gave me evasive answers when I tried to research the history of an Apollo 11 crew signed portrait, alleged to have come from him. Now that's calling the kettle black!

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" (for the benefit of those who can never forgive Dave).

Dave does not call himself an "Armstrong expert"! Further, rather then exhibiting the arrogance that some in the chatroom display, he experienced considerable soul-searching regarding this small hoard (I have witnessed this personally).

Dave has spoken out about his recall to the people who matter, namely, his clientele who were affected.

That Dave does not choose to use a chatroom or a particular website to comment is his business, and a decision that I respect. Dave spoke out quite forcefully by his deeds, and has his own forum to comment in.

Dave is respected by the astronauts, their families, and the institutions who rely upon him for not "lurking" in chatrooms like this, or shooting his mouth off on every email group, despite frequent libelous "baiting".

Dave also deals with extremely sensitive projects for some very important people and institutions, and was chosen by them not only for his technical competence, but also for his ability to keep his mouth shut.

For example, I was recently permitted to witness one of Dave's latest coups, in which he single-handedly orchestrated the transfer of one of the most important space archives ever created into public hands (I have the pictures and video for proof).

However, as a condition of handling the engagement (which is standard with his work), Dave is prohibited from speaking a word, which he has the discipline to fully respect (it is frustrating for me, because it was a wonderful moment and I would love to describe it to everyone).

Finally, to those who call Dave a "new collector", I don't know what year they received their first Armstrong and Aldrin autographs, but Dave received his in 1975, and is also approaching his sixth year in the business.

To wrap up my LAST comments on this thread, when Dave's ongoing efforts and accomplishments can finally be publicized, I suspect that the concerns raised here will be long forgotten.

posted 11-20-2001 11:05 PM               

I'm glad to see he has loyal customers. Frankly, it doesn't surprise me. He has offered some great pieces in the past -- though I disagree that all were competitively priced or even near wholesale (but that's another discussion).

I know Dave, perhaps not as well as others here, but he and I have met and we have corresponded from time to time. I feel he has a lot to share and I am disappointed if he feels that collectSPACE is not the place to do so.

My earlier post didn't attack Dave. It simply asked that he share his unique perspective on an issue near to each of us -- the identification and disposal of forgeries.

posted 11-21-2001 01:23 AM               

Your replies were simply amazing. More fraught with arrogance replies Ive never seen. As Robert Pearlman said, and as I scrolled back through and searched, I find it very difficult to find any "attacks" - in fact I saw none. Unless asking someone to address some concerns that are prevalent all throughout the hobby because you do feel there is a good explanation, is an attack. But I sure don't see it that way. Nope, sure looks like support to me.

But I suspect when you have to defend someone who won't/can't speak for himself then you have to resort to such name calling and accusations. Ive repeated several times my "motiviation", that it is NOT to attack but rather to assist him boost his credibility. It's too bad he has people speak for him.

Now, I also thought it was quite funny about this "clandestine" wonderful act for mankind that was so super secret - that he allowed a non employee to accompany him on that was further allowed to videotape! So much for secrecy. <G>

Nonetheless I digress. No ones attacking him guys, I'm sorry there are so many hyper sensitive feelings here on your two parts. I'm sure he's a great guy, as I've said all along and a feeling you carry to a greater degree by painting him as the second coming of, well someone else. He may well be that person. but is it so wrong to ask him to address these concerns? Not necessarily here as I said (if you had taken the time to read) but somewhere? Jeez o pete, all it can do is HELP him, and I for one would like to clear these things up to his benefit. Theres enough problems in the hobby without being so secretive.

Libelous? <G> Good one. Sue me for wanting to help the guy. Thanks for the veiled threats too Larry. <G> Wrong guy though. After reading your last email I'm glad you wont address it any more.

Gotta go, Im off to get a life. >LOL<

Best,

posted 11-21-2001 02:41 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by xxcygni:
I'm not entirely certain about the Belgian stamp blocks but as far as I've heard, those are not questioned among the experts. I have two of those myself and got them for around $300.

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posted 11-21-2001 06:19 AM               

As to the question of the Peachtree gentleman, I think it would be good if he choose to explain the circumstances behind the supposedly fake Armstrong-signed photos, but he made good his mistake, and if he chooses not to say anything I think that's his decision to make. Maybe he feels it's none of our business, he got snookered and doesn't want to discuss it ad naseum.

All the original poster wanted to do was tell others how impressed he was that a dealer went to those legnths to correct a mistake, and he opened a kettle of fish. In spite of the denials and claims that posters were only trying to help Mr. Peachtree, they read more like sly innuendo and character assassination along the classic court room line of "When did you stop beating your wife?" Because the man doesn't choose to explain to the satisfaction of certain posters doesn't mean squat. I can't speak for the man, but maybe he feels he's facing a no-win situation here, no matter what he says he's going to be blasted, or have his words twisted around...and maybe that's right.

I for one have never done business with Peachtree, so have no axe to grind for or against the man. I've been in the autograph collecting hobby since age seven, almost 50 years ago, and I can't recall any dealer laying out his business for the world to see, unless he was defending himself against a charge of wrong-doing in a court of law. The man made restitution for a mistake in the light of new evidence, how can anyone demand more....especially those who weren't even victims of the initial mistake?

posted 11-21-2001 03:26 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by eurospace:

Mike, The original Belgian souvenir sheets are authentic. However, the Belgian souvenir sheets do exist without the signature, and any ill-intended individual can apply a fake signature on them. I have come by one example only very recently.

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posted 11-21-2001 03:54 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr. William R. Hanson:
This is not to say there aren't sheets with genuine signatures of Armstrong and other astros--there are--but just because the signature appears on that Belgian Souvenir Sheet is no indication of authenticity.

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posted 11-21-2001 06:15 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr. William R. Hanson:

As to the question of the Peachtree gentleman, I think it would be good if he choose to explain the circumstances behind the supposedly fake Armstrong-signed photos.

---

posted 11-21-2001 07:07 PM               

However, in Peachstate's early years, a number of Neil Armstrong autographs distributed only by P'state were considered suspect & the publication of the so-called Armstrong Flag Test spurred P'state to recall their Armstrongs & make refunds. This response was very commendable & is frequently cited by many P'state clients as an indication of P'state's integrity & commitment to its customers.

Granted, P'state is not obligated to publicly disclose any details about the provenance of its "recalled" Armstrong WSSs, as has been the request of a number of concerned collectors. But it has been the wish of a large number of concerned collectors to learn more about them, especially their original source - this is not just curiosity, but rather a desire to clear the air & get things out in the open.

With a number of Apollo 11 crew signed items from P'statealso bearing the same suspect Armstrong style signature as the "recalled" Armstrong WSSs, it is disappointing that no explanation has been forthcoming over this fairly puzzling group of autograph material originating from P'state. It's surprising & disappointing that only silence has come so far from P'state, when it would be expected for information to be provided that could remove the dark cloud hanging over these "recalled" Armstrong WSSs &, also, the Apollo 11 crew signed lithos that also bear the "recalled" Armstrong style signature. Clearing the air would only help P'state's reputation & probably also bring in new customers.

Some on this thread have been giving glowing testimonials on P'state's integrity & its current merchandise, but many others are much more concerned about the origin of the autographs that P'state sold in its early years. From the start, we have only asked P'state to publicly respond to these legitimate questions - so P'state can bring things out in the open & start to remove the dark cloud hanging over its early days. Is this unreasonable or asking too much?

posted 11-21-2001 08:55 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by CPIA:
To wrap up my LAST comments on this thread, when Dave's ongoing efforts and accomplishments can finally be publicized, I suspect that the concerns raised here will be long forgotten.

---

I have never done business with Peachstate and I do not know Mr. Frohman in any way. I have seen many offerings from the company and I am quite familiar with the "Neil A. Armstrong IACC/DA Concise Autograph Study" by David Frohman, President, Peachstate Historical Consulting, Inc. I am not a competitor or even a part-time dealer. I have not even ever sold an item on Ebay even though I have enough surplus that my wife may force me to one of these days!

I hope to reply point by point and hope that the result remains at least partly coherent.

1) I don't understand why you want to make one reply and then not respond again. There can be no dialog if one person says, I'm going to have the last word and then no more replies. I don't see where this answers any of the questions that have been raised. Are these just matters where each person has an opinion and what truth may or may not exist is irrelevant? I do understand that these exchanges are often unpleasant, time-consuming, and often end with hard feelings. I certainly hope this is not the case now.

2) I have never heard anyone question any material being sold that came directly from the astronauts. You have to build trust and a reputation before you can have this kind of access. A skeptic would ask the question in a hypothetical sense - if a person were to have first hand knowledge of all the material they sell and then do a recall of a certain "hoard", what does that say about the value of first hand knowledge? I want to be clear here that I've said nothing about honesty or the ability to make things right with customers. I'm just asking, what is the value of first hand knowledge if it still lets you down?

3) Many of the best items but there is still virtually unlimited competition. Many collectors have found it possible to build a fine collection by working only through NovaSpace. Others only deal with Lunar Legacies. Still others will only buy from Peachstate. Some only buy at auctions. Some buy from just about every source. I think this is another irrelevant point.

4) A Bill of Sale is great. There are a few people out there that are full-time professionals. I'm glad they run it like a real business. This is a great thing. It is what I expect when I do business. It is how an established firm such as NovaSpace Galleries has always done business. However, I see this line as a slam against some of the part-time or garage dealers who do our hobby a great service. I have done business or trade with many of these individuals and even though they can be seen as competitors of the full-time businesses, I would not deal with them if they did not allow me to return items that were not authentic or defective. I do think that this competitor comment is meant to distract us from the original questions. I find it ironic that everytime someone sells junk on Ebay and there is a complaint, the first claim that is made is that the complaint is from a jealous competitor. Our discourse should be above that level.

5) Mr. Frohman may not call himself an Armstrong expert but when you write the award winning "Concise Autograph Study", there are going to be some people who consider you an expert. I'm sure his customers consider him to be an expert. Mr. McGlynn, I would guess that you consider him an expert. I don't see that you can have it both ways. It doesn't matter what he calls himself. By the way, I consider the "Study" to be flawed. Of course, my opinion doesn't count for much because even though I've examined hundreds of signatures for Armstrong, I am not trained or certified and so I'm not considered an expert. However, I don't have to be considered an expert by anyone else to build my own collection. I do know that very many of the seasoned collectors in the hobby agree with me that there are two styles of signatures included in the study that are considered highly questionable to the point that they would not want them included in their collections. Personally, I considered the "Autograph Study" for the most part as an advertisement for Peachstate. I think that is a smart business move. That is just my opinion. As I said earlier, I don't have an axe to grind in this matter. I would like to see resolution other than name calling. This is seen all the time when talking about arrogance, items traded between Leon and Joe, mentions of gimmicks like reverse auctions... For not wanting to let a discussion degrade, it sure seems like it happens easy enough. I can't think of a more gentle way to make this point but I want to stress that I'm not trying bash Mr. McGlynn or anyone else.

6) Not wanting to comment on a public forum is probably a wise decision. I'm pretty sure that I will take all kinds of grief for going public with my thoughts. This is a really interesting story and I hope that those in the know will continue to comment so that the rest of us can learn more about the hobby. I guess that there is really no need for calls to answer the original questions since Mr. Frohman has plenty of defenders who are willing to speak for him. I would not want others to speak for if there were questions being raised about my work as a professional research astronomer. Personally, I would answer myself.

7) It will be interesting to see what the future will bring. I have seen lots of events in my life and so I guess that nothing surprises me much anymore. I still don't see how questions get answered by refusing to talk about them though.

That is it from me for now. I have really tried to keep my comments on the civil side and hope that I have caused no offense. I hope I don't get bashed to much but these are the types of dialogs that always seem to catch my interest.

posted 11-21-2001 09:20 PM               

It's time to hang it up. I thought that Mr. Frohman might take this opportunity to answer the questions that have been going through our hobby about some of the Armstrong autographs he sold, but that is not going to happen. He seems to be allowing other people to make posts for him and that is not going to give us any information at all. He is back from his vacation and could make a post, but he chooses not to.

I hope everyone has a wonderful Thanksgiving tomorrow. We all have a great deal to be thankful for.

Take care,

posted 11-21-2001 09:29 PM               

The photo that I traded had been in my possession for a while. I knew well what the signature looked like. It was the exact same photo I had traded, only now it was complete. Just couldn't figure out how he got them to supposedly sign the photo when I couldn't.

posted 11-22-2001 11:59 AM               

I am a long-time reader of Autograph Collector Magazine and I am unaware of ever seeing the piece you described. You stated as a fact that it appeared "last year."

May I inquire as to which issue it appeared in during 2000?

posted 11-22-2001 04:49 PM               

Contrary to what some have ATTEMPTED to alledge, there is no ill will or anything negative. Hopefully this will be beneficial to him and all.

Best,

posted 11-22-2001 05:09 PM              

Let me first state I've never met DF (as I'll refer to Mr. Frohman from hereon, for brevity's sake), and have had no direct dealings with him, (although I did, at one time, own two pieces, an Armstrong and a Collins, that I understand came from him), so my knowledge of him and all collateral issues are solely from what I've read from or discussed with others. I'm happy to read from Robert that DF will soon be addressing this forum to perhaps put some hot issues to rest, but I'm not very hopeful that will be the outcome.

I acknowledge that DF does have defenders, not just numerous detractors, but I must say, I haven't found the arguments of his defenders very compelling. Character witnesses can't be very effective if they don't address the subject matter over which the person they're defending is being attacked. To say simply that DF has been an upstanding fellow, does wonderful work, has acted with integrity in many areas, while ignoring the main "charges" against him is, in my opinion, only adding to his problems. This is no different than Bill Clinton's defenders telling us no crime was was committed, but even if there was, it was only about sex, it was a private matter, and besides, look at all the other wonderful things he's done as President. The central question there was always, did he or did he not commit a crime? That same question has yet to be addressed by DF's defenders.

Certain facts also need to be understood from the get-go. First, we are not engaged in a trial in a court of law here, thus there is no required presumption of innocence. A presumption of guilt is entirely just as valid, and from what I know of the facets of this case, not at all unwarranted. Aside from any controversies surrounding a large number of fake Armstrongs that apparently emanated from DF, which may or may not be damning, depending on certain facts and possible defenses, there is an explosive issue, and apparently a "mystery", surrounding the confounding appearance of Armstrong and Collins signatures on one or more photos where they did not exist before. This is an amazing happenstance, and should be THE PRIMARY focus of any inquiry regarding DF and the way he conducts his affairs.

So far, the only responses from DF's defenders to this question have been to question the veracity of the people making the claim(s), or the existence of the photos themselves, or whether these are actually even the same photos. Is it not amazing that the magical appearance of these signatures hasn't raised serious doubts in the minds of DF's defenders regarding HIS veracity or integrity?

Many here have also raised the issue of DF's refunds as illustrious of his professionalism and having acted with integrity in the matter of the fake Armstrongs. This would be entirely appropriate if the dealer in question weren't under a cloud of suspicion regarding the origins of the bogus material, yet defenders have steadfastly refused to acknowledge that aspect of the issue. Is a bank robber less guilty of having committed a crime just because he returns the money?

posted 11-22-2001 06:50 PM               

I do not recall the exact issue. I have e-mailed Autograph Collector magazine in hopes of having them send me a scan of the ad. Hopefully they will.

posted 11-24-2001 12:08 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by albatron@aol.com:
How can someone who is suppose to be "the expert" on Armstrongs autographs, miss this one to the degree it was missed? Also, there are some very blatant forgeries in the study not listed a such.

---

You made some excellent points and I would like to add a few of my own.

I have also been very curious about all the blank NASA lithos I and many other collectors/dealers have sold this dealer in years past. Note,,they were all blank Armstrong, Collins And Apollo 11 crew photos. (note: this dealer wasnt interested in blank Aldrin photos). When you count all the total blank photos it came to over 200!

To Jimmy Brown, who had a signed A-11 crew photo signed only by Buzz, I would love to know what happened to that photo. I am sure he keeps records so it would be easy to track the photo.

I will be looking forward to hearing answers to these questions as well as the many, many others that collectors have had over the years that were never addressed.

posted 11-24-2001 10:11 AM               

You are absolutely correct!

Peachstate did INDEED acquire some Apollo 11 NASA lithos for $10.00 a piece many years ago from you (which I personally thought was too much money per piece).

As with many of the other attacks on Peachstate, and David Frohman's personal reputation, your statement is only a half truth. I have visited his office many times and he has STACKS of unsigned lithos from virtually EVERY Apollo astronaut. Early on Dave realized the promotional value of giving the lithos away for FREE.

There is certain irony to the timing of your comment, as Peachstate is in the middle of their annual free NASA lithograph giveaway for 2001.

However, I should cut you some slack, as I doubt that you are on Peachstate's Christmas mailing list.

What you are also not telling the Collectspace public is that batches of NASA lithos, which can number in the hundreds or thousands ROUTINELY change hands between collectors and dealers.

As an example, Superior has sold many hoards of Apollo lithos numbering in the thousands to collectors and dealers in large lots often consisting of hundreds of pieces per lot over the years, as you well know. Of which, I might add, the majority were Apollo 11 lithographs.

Incidentally, if acquiring stock piles of unsigned NASA lithos is such a crime then I guess we ALL may as well turn ourselves in.

posted 11-24-2001 12:31 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by CPIA:
You are absolutely correct!

---

quote:

---

Peachstate did INDEED acquire some Apollo 11 NASA lithos for $10.00 a piece many years ago from you (which I personally thought was too much money per piece).

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And yes, I thought too that $10 for a blank litho was crazy many years ago!
And he paid me by check next day FedEx and had me ship to him the same day, next day Fed Ex. I thought, how odd that he HAD to have these the next day! What's the hurry? What can he possibly do with 30 or so unsigned photos.

Davey especially wanted the ones with the NASA meatball on the back. I thought that was odd too.

quote:

---

As with many of the other attacks on Peachstate, and David Frohman's personal reputation, your statement is only a half truth.

---

quote:

---

There is certain irony to the timing of your comment, as Peachstate is in the middle of their annual free NASA lithograph giveaway for 2001.

---

quote:

---

However, I should cut you some slack, as I doubt that you are on Peachstate's Christmas mailing list.

---

quote:

---

As an example, Superior has sold many hoards of Apollo lithos numbering in the thousands to collectors and dealers in large lots often consisting of hundreds of pieces per lot over the years, as you well know. Of which, I might add, the majority were Apollo 11 lithographs.

---

As always, I will patiently be looking forward to hearing your (his) replies.

posted 11-24-2001 12:37 PM               

I agree. I believe last year was the first time I recall seeing lithos being given away free to clients. If I remember correctly, Armstrong lithos were one of the one's being given away last year.

posted 11-24-2001 02:05 PM               

Look at the situation from a completely objective viewpoint:

1. Peachstate purchases a large supply of blank Armstrong lithographs.

2. Peachstate offers a large supply of Armstrong autographs on NASA lithographs. These are all (or mostly) uninscribed, a quality almost never seen prior to or after this sale.

3. Peachstate publishes an Armstrong study which is advertised as a guide to identifying the different styles of Armstrong's autograph. Among the examples included are a few of the lithographs sold by Peachstate (see #2).

3. A group of collectors recognize that Armstrong tends to avoid the flag with his signature. A large group of the signatures "flagged" by this test originate from the Peachstate sale.

4. Peachstate issues a recall of their Armstrong autographs.

Without any input from Peachstate, collectors are left to draw their own conclusions from the above. Conclusions that very well may be wrong.

posted 11-24-2001 04:02 PM              

First of all, I have a question for Robert. It is my understanding that you reserve the right to close any thread that may in any way be considered an attack on another person. However, you are allowing this thread to continue with its innuendos and vague suggestions about David. In fairness, I’ve got to ask why have you allowed this thread to continue? Many of the posts border on slander and defamation. If you disagree with this, put yourself in the shoes of a new collector. How would a new collector view David if he was reading the posts here and had no other point of reference to draw a conclusion about this dealer?

Robert has stated that David will respond to the questions and statements by Monday. Give David a chance to reply.

posted 11-24-2001 04:41 PM               

It's now unclear if David will simply issue a statement responding to issues brought up on this thread or will respond to questions sent in.

posted 11-24-2001 04:50 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spacerelic:
How would a new collector view David if he was reading the posts here and had no other point of reference to draw a conclusion about this dealer?

---

I have not prevented David's supporters (nor David for that matter) from participating in this forum. The direction this thread has taken has been decided by you -- the contributors. My job as moderator is to insure we stay on topic and to the most part, I believe we have.

I will admit this subject is a difficult one to broach without passions running high, but it is sometimes necessary for uncomfortable subjects to be raised and debated. Without such exchanges, we would truly live in a world full of innuendo and vague suggestions.