posted 07-15-2011 12:33 PM               

The comments in your article from the astronauts very much illustrate your points about the three classes of shuttle astronauts. Weatherbee, who defended Abbey, was very much in the inner circle of the "Friends of George" or FOGs as I heard them called.

posted 07-15-2011 03:06 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by brianjbradley:
Michael, wasn't Abbey's middle names "Washington Sherman"?

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posted 07-15-2011 04:09 PM               

Francis, thanks for the kind words.

posted 07-15-2011 06:34 PM               

I have had the chance to talk to several astronauts about Abbey, who has always fascinated me. Some astronauts who benefited from his largesse with key flight assigments had many good things to say about Abbey's leadership and organizational skills. Other astronauts detested him as a tyrant who manipulated people without remorse. There is no figure in the space program who has been more polarizing than Abbey.

posted 07-15-2011 06:55 PM               

I believe Abbey's style was closer to that of a classic machine politician... or to that of a long-serving, capable and largely invisible (to the public and even colleagues) figure like, say, Jimmie Hill of NRO, or a name no one here will know, Vincent Ford of Gen. Bernard Schriever's staff. These are people who got things done -- yes, often by bruising egos and playing favorites. Sometimes, as with Abbey and on a larger scale, Hyman Rickover, these figures gain immense power and some prominence... and the juicy stories begin to leak.

posted 07-15-2011 07:39 PM            

I hope so, and I would be the first to buy. I have always been fascinated by the "enigma".

Correct me if my memory fails me, but wasn't there a joke in the astronaut office relating to a photo of Abbey greeting a returning a Shuttle crew, with the caption referring to him as "an unknown NASA official"? The irony being that such an omnipotent force inside the agency had absolutely zero public recognition outside. Or maybe it was a photograph of Abbey on the Shuttle middeck during a flight (not the STS 5 one in your article), with a similar caption??

posted 07-15-2011 07:57 PM               

Your characterization of him as an old-time machine politician is probably more appropriate (especially since I am from Chicago where we have a long history of machine politicians). Machine politicians get things done, but it is on their own terms.

Another analogy is that Abbey's fiefdom was JSC, and he apparently rewarded those who helped him and punished or ignored those who did not. The "serfs" needed to acknowledge his supremacy as lord of the manor(I don't think they were required to kiss his ring).

Abbey casts a long shadow and there were some who feared that he might, like the cat with nine lives, have come back to NASA for another stint when Obama was dithering about choosing a new NASA Administrator.

In any case, a great article.

posted 07-16-2011 12:26 PM               

And there were complaints about subsequent crew selection officials, too, even after the power shifted from director FCOD to chief astronaut (early 1988).

posted 07-16-2011 01:48 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by DChudwin:
Sure, astronauts wil grouse if they do not get the flight assignments they covet. But Abbey's alleged favoritism, lack of clear criteria for selection, little or no feedback on performance, political maneuvering, and fraternization with some of his favored subordinates (see "Dragonfly") are more than the complaints against others with crew selection authority.

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My point is, Abbey followed a practice that had worked in the past -- and absent a series of qualification tests and exams (ala Soviet cosmonauts -- who, even with those, had no idea how they were being rated), what other system is there other than a subjective judgment of people's background, behavior, performance (as rated by colleagues and instructors)?

Slayton was friends with some of the astronauts who worked for him, not with others. With Shepard, it was obviously to Shepard's benefit. With Cooper and White, not at all. Searfoss and others told me it was the same under Abbey: there were astronauts who socialized with him, many who did not. Some of the friends got great assignments, some found themselves doing administrative or other work they didn't want at all.

Your description -- favoritism, maneuvering, etc., which is the Dragonfly description -- matches every job I've ever had.

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Michael, would you want George Abbey as your boss?

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posted 07-16-2011 06:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
The fact that some (many? a majority? nobody can say) astronauts disliked Abbey's methods can't be argued, but I've heard similar complaints about Slayton -- there was almost open revolt in the office over his assignment of Shepard as commander of Apollo 13.

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The thing is, if you suddenly weren't on that rotation you had to know something was up. With Abbey's system you fly and then you wait and wait, possibly for a very long time.

They were both guilty of favoritism, but Slayton's Astronaut Office, with the flight rotation at least provided some semblance of order. And those who fell out of favor, well, there is logic we can see:

• Gordon Cooper - Even Walt Cunningham, who fell out of favor saw Slayton's logic here.
  
• Walt Cunningham - Deke fences around this idea in your book with him Michael, but its clear management didn't want him or Donn Eisele flying again. Maybe if Apollo's 18 and 19 hadn't been canceled Walt Cunningham would have had a shot on Skylab.
  
• Donn Eisele - By most accounts wasn't a good backup for Apollo 10, utterly killing his chances at anything. People from Tom Stafford to Walt Cunningham both made statements to this affect.
  
• Rusty Schweickart - Victim of a lack of understanding about SAS. But it always sounded like, he himself felt is was a sign of weakness based on Slayton's comments that "even Rusty was worried" after his bout of SAS.
  
• Ed White - Deke may have soured on him, but I'm honestly not 100% on that. Had Apollo 1 gone well, Grissom could have become a powerful advocate for White.

In any case, Cooper, Cunningham and Schweickart all had to be very keenly aware something was "up" when suddenly they weren't on the next backup crews.

posted 07-17-2011 11:02 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Skylon:
Donn Eisele - By most accounts wasn't a good backup for Apollo 10, utterly killing his chances at anything. People from Tom Stafford to Walt Cunningham both made statements to this affect.

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posted 07-17-2011 11:15 AM               

As for Skylon's thoughtful post, in part:

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The thing with Slayton's system versus Abbey's is there was a degree of transparency in his "serve as backup, skip two, then fly" system. For all its flaws, and the changes that occurred, there was a sense that you got a "turn." The astronauts who got on that rotation and stayed there spoke well of Deke Slayton. With the Shepard situation Slayton suddenly shattered his own system.

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(Abbey had plans, circa 1982, for the wholesale rotation of CDR/PLT and MS/MS teams within certain mission types, if the Shuttle launch rate ramped up to 15/year. It never did, of course.)

posted 07-17-2011 06:23 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
(Abbey had plans, circa 1982, for the wholesale rotation of CDR/PLT and MS/MS teams within certain mission types, if the Shuttle launch rate ramped up to 15/year. It never did, of course.)

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posted 07-17-2011 07:29 PM               

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I understood Eisele had "unbecoming" conduct on orbit on Apollo 7 and his chances of flying again after that flight were nil. An assignment to Apollo 10 backup crew might just have been protocol.

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I assume part of the reason for Eisele's assignment to the backup crew of Apollo 10 was Slayton's rule at the time that the CMP on a flight involving a LM (meaning where the CMP was expected to fly the CSM solo) be a spaceflight veteran. When it came time to assign the Apollo 10 backup crew, there wasn't anyone else available that fit that bill (except Walt Cunningham). Being that Slayton by then had tagged Cunningham for Skylab, that left Eisele. I suspect, however, that he was considered a seat-warmer for Stu Roosa from the get-go.

It would have been interesting if John Young had to be replaced by Eisele at the last minute (in a Ken Mattingly/Apollo 13-type situation). Would Slayton have considered him up to the task? Of course, he definitely had to consider that possibility when he assigned Eisele to the slot.

posted 07-17-2011 08:09 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Delta7:
I assume part of the reason for Eisele's assignment to the backup crew of Apollo 10 was Slayton's rule at the time that the CMP on a flight involving a LM (meaning where the CMP was expected to fly the CSM solo) be a spaceflight veteran. When it came time to assign the Apollo 10 backup crew, there wasn't anyone else available that fit that bill (except Walt Cunningham). Being that Slayton by then had tagged Cunningham for Skylab, that left Eisele. I suspect, however, that he was considered a seat-warmer for Stu Roosa from the get-go.

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In response to Michael's post - yes, Slayton was working in a very different environment. And I got the impression, based on his comments in "Deke" that he never grasped how crew assignments, especially crew size, ended up having to work for the shuttle, probably a result of him only having experience in the development phase of the shuttle but not the operational flights.

Still, and maybe this is just hype, or maybe it was just the personality of the two men. Slayton may have simply been able to hold the trust of the Astronaut Corps to a greater degree than Abbey. As you note in your article, Kraft felt Slayton was "too protective" of them. He was a test pilot and therefore someone they could relate to, and coming out of Fighter Ops at Edwards, from the same mold of the rest of them. And he had Alan Shepard, a man who could serve the function of icy CO, as his deputy to keep the corps in line.

Where as Slayton was seen as a straight shooter, Abbey was seen as mysterious. He spoke quietly..."mumbled" if you go by Mullane's accounts, and showed little emotion. His Astronaut Office Chief, John Young, whatever his accomplishments as a pilot and astronaut, also seems like a polar opposite to Shepard - mysterious, quiet and distant.

posted 07-17-2011 09:58 PM               

Deke was indeed a straight shooter while Abbey was not. Abbey apparently thought information was power; he gathered a lot but gave out little.

Deke was respected while Abbey was feared. Abbey at times treated world-class astronauts as if they were children (e.g. his way of telling them about crew assignments).

Even if you did not agree with all of them, Deke's crew assignments had an internal logic while Abbey's did not always. They both had favorites, but my opinion is that Abbey's assigments reflected them more than Deke's.

Now it has been pointed out that Abbey's selections had to be approved by superiors, but higher-up very rarely interfered in flight crew assignments (exceptions being pushing Shepard from Apollo 13 to 14 and insisting Engle be bumped by Schmitt to get a geologist on the Moon).

posted 07-17-2011 11:32 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by DChudwin:
I only met Deke Slayton once and have never met George Abbey, but discussions with former astronauts and a lot of reading about the space program over the last 50 years leads me to the following personal opinions:

Deke was indeed a straight shooter while Abbey was not. Abbey apparently thought information was power; he gathered a lot but gave out little.

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quote:

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Deke was respected while Abbey was feared. Abbey at times treated world-class astronauts as if they were children (e.g. his way of telling them about crew assigments).

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quote:

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Even if you did not agree with all of them, Deke's crew assignments had an internal logic while Abbey's did not always. They both had favorites, but my opinion is that Abbey's assignments reflected them more than Deke's.

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quote:

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Now it has been pointed out that Abbey's selections had to be approved by superiors, but higher-up very rarely interfered in flight crew assigments (exceptions being pushing Shepard from Apollo 13 to 14 and insisting Engle be bumped by Schmitt to get a geologist on the Moon).

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quote:

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I, for one, would not have wanted to have had a secretive, scheming, vindictive boss such as Abbey, but that is my non-astronaut opinion only-- some astronauts put up with his modus operandi because Abbey had other leadership and political skills which helped the manned space program.

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posted 07-18-2011 06:11 AM               

George Abbey is obviously a polarizing figure.

posted 07-18-2011 02:40 PM               

As a number have noted, George Abbey's reputation has taken a number of hits from individuals within the Astronaut Office. He and Charles Berry probably have taken more consistent flak than any other individuals associated with the program over the last fifty years.

posted 07-18-2011 04:18 PM               

But the Apollo CCB is where Abbey made his reputation with Gilruth and Kraft, in particular. It is worth further exploration.

posted 07-19-2011 09:51 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
But the Apollo CCB is where Abbey made his reputation with Gilruth and Kraft, in particular. It is worth further exploration.

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On the surface it seems Deke Slayton was too politically powerful within JSC for Kraft to ever fully challenge. So Slayton ran the Astronaut Office as he saw fit and the two men worked well together, in spite of any differences.

It also makes you wonder about Kraft's insistence on Slayton flying ASTP. All Slayton's political power was never in the interest of becoming a power broker in NASA, but towards the end of reversing the decision that grounded him. Everything else was secondary to that. Kraft probably knew that, and that once Slayton was back on flight status, he'd be able to put whomever he wanted in charge of the Astronaut Corps... someone who could reign in "astro-power." Slayton sacrificed almost all his power when he resigned as FCO Director.

It's also telling that when ASTP splashed down, nobody seemed interested in offering Deke his job in FCOD back. Instead he got jobs that kept him at Dryden and KSC, getting the Shuttle ready to fly... away from JSC a lot.

posted 07-19-2011 10:21 AM               

Exactly what we've come to expect from one of the greats.

posted 07-19-2011 01:11 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Skylon:
Slayton sacrificed almost all his power when he resigned as FCO Director.

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Who turned out to be a disaster. Kraft moved Kleinknecht out in late 1975, early 1976, and turned to George Abbey.

One telling anecdote: when Pete Conrad, post-Skylab, sat down with Kraft for a meeting about his future, Conrad said, "Well, I'd like Deke's job."

Kraft: "There isn't going to be another Deke."

quote:

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It's also telling that when ASTP splashed down, nobody seemed interested in offering Deke his job in FCOD back. Instead he got jobs that kept him at Dryden and KSC, getting the Shuttle ready to fly... away from JSC a lot.

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quote:

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Also, Michael, your article does seem to paint Deke as being rather opposed to the concept on minorities and women flying on the shuttle...

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posted 07-19-2011 03:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
(Further, he was also opposed to the Kraft/Abbey sizing of the astronaut office, thinking it should be smaller for Shuttle.)

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It sounds like at some point even Kraft and Abbey stopped agreeing on this. Mike Mullane wrote that Jerry Ross told him the Astronaut Class of 1980 was welcomed to JSC by Kraft and then told by Kraft that he wasn't sure why their class was recruited.

On another note, maybe in the long run its a good thing shuttle crews weren't handled like Deke's Gemini and Apollo crews. Slayton's system of having Astronauts cycle from backup to prime, then backup again had to take its toll on the astronaut's familiy lives. You may have been last in line, or serving as a backup, but it meant you were ALWAYS training for a mission once you got into the rotation. It's clear why some chose to get out of the astronaut business rather than go back to the bottom of the totem pole, and work ones way back up (Frank Borman, Mike Collins and a few others).