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  Frank Borman, Chuck Yeager and the NF-104

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Author Topic:   Frank Borman, Chuck Yeager and the NF-104
Lunatiki
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Posts: 237
From: Amarillo, TX, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

posted 01-13-2007 07:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lunatiki     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Someone mentioned a "run in" or dispute that Frank Borman had with Chuck Yeager. I've done a bit of searching, but haven't found anything about it. Does anyone know about this, if it in fact did happen?

mjanovec
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From: Midwest, USA
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posted 01-13-2007 08:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Was the dispute supposed to have been a recent one...or one from long ago?

In his book, Countdown, Borman doesn't really describe any dispute other than note Yeager's sour reaction at Borman's news of being selected for NASA. Yeager said "You can kiss your goddamned Air Force career goodbye." But Borman doesn't elaborate any further than that.

Borman also is somewhat critical of Yeager for crashing the NF-104 and ending that program in an attempt for an altitude record. But there is no mention of a dispute with Yeager.

Lunatiki
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From: Amarillo, TX, USA
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posted 01-13-2007 08:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lunatiki     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks. My understanding is it was an older one, not recent.

FFrench
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From: San Diego
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posted 01-13-2007 10:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FFrench     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That first story is also recounted in Borman's NASA oral history.

kr4mula
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From: Cinci, OH
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posted 01-16-2007 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kr4mula   Click Here to Email kr4mula     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe Borman also wrote in his book at length about the NF-104 and its dearness to his heart. He was quite put out when Yeager's crash during an unauthorized altitude recrod-type flight resulted in his crash.

Yeager declared the vehicle unfit to fly (to save face, according to Borman, who believed Yeager was trying to get the aircraft to do something it couldn't), and thus killed the program.

The NASA JSC oral history with Tom McElmurry mentions designing the -104 in Borman's kitchen (he was there), but not specifically the dispute with Yeager, though he does mention the multiple crashes that canned the program.

albatron
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From: Stuart, Florida
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posted 01-16-2007 11:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for albatron   Click Here to Email albatron     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is info on the NF-104 from the guy who did most of the flights in it.

As you will read, Yeager was briefed on the aircraft and of course, felt he knew more. Hence, the crash.

kr4mula
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From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006

posted 01-17-2007 11:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kr4mula   Click Here to Email kr4mula     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yikes - if Borman doesn't have an argument with Yeager, this guy sure does!

AstronautBrian
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From: Louisiana
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posted 01-17-2007 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AstronautBrian   Click Here to Email AstronautBrian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am currently reading "First Man" and it seems like Yeager had a beef with just about anybody. Armstrong seems to have taken it in stride.

dractr
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From: Bakersfield, CA USA
Registered: Nov 2010

posted 11-26-2010 09:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dractr   Click Here to Email dractr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeager couldn't and wouldn't fly the NF-104 as the program profile was stated. He was trying to go past the engineering aspect of the program and do it his way and he made that mistake. He would not listen to Borman -- that's where the argument was at.

Spacepsycho
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From: Huntington Beach, Calif.
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 11-26-2010 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacepsycho   Click Here to Email Spacepsycho     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've had the pleasure to speak with dozens of test pilots at Edwards AFB, AIAA and SETP events over the years. My experience has been that the test pilots are a very close knit group who support and defend each other, even when one makes a mistake or does something wrong. They're also extremely honorable men who don't pull punches and tell it the way it is. It's a very dangerous business where everyone is volunteering to risk their lives, especially the older test pilots who all had many harrowing experiences in their careers.

Out of the test pilots I've spoken to from Gen. Yeagers era, there isn't one who has anything complimentary to say about him. About a year ago I had a long conversation with two very well known and highly respected test pilots who flew the 104-N and knew Gen. Yeager very well, having flown with him since the 50's. These two pilots LOVED that airplane, they told me that it was not a difficult aircraft to fly, IF... you followed the checklist and flight plan. They were heartbroken when Gen. Yeager destroyed the 104-N by his incompetence and they didn't hide their thoughts about him.

They explained to me in detail how Gen. Yeager screwed up, how he didn't follow a checklist or procedures, how he didn't remember to reset the tail position for flight in lower atmosphere and how he had no business flying that airplane. Yet even with all of his FUBAR errors that caused the 104-N to depart from controlled flight, Gen. Yeager was such a great pilot that he was able to recover the 104-N at 25,000ft, only to lose control again, because he didn't bother to learn what he was doing. It was a very preventable crash (I don't consider it an accident because of the gross pilot error involved) and it resulted in the end of an outstanding test flight program.

Gen. Yeager walked away from his incompetent flying of the 104-N by blaming everyone and everything for his lack of knowledge about the aircraft. Because Yeager was a legend, he was treated differently by the military brass. If this stunt had been done by a regular test pilot, he would have been raked over the coals and drummed out of the test pilot corps for doing something so incompetently stupid. The fact that Gen. Yeager chose not to accept responsibility for his gross arrogance and blame everyone else attitude, really put a wedge between him & the rest of the test pilots who did their homework by learning every aircraft they strapped on.

The fact is that Gen. Yeager, at this time in his career, couldn't be bothered to spend time learning the highly technical aspects of test piloting and it cost him the respect of his peers. The other test pilots knew it was Gen. Yeagers military brass and political buddies who kept him from getting in trouble after this incident and that didn't sit well with honorable men who didn't have the luxury of blaming someone else for their mistakes. If Gen. Yeager had accepted responsibility for his lack of knowledge of the 104-N, he wouldn't have gotten in trouble for crashing it. Instead he would have gained the respect of his fellow test pilots, but his ego wouldn't allow him to do anything but blame the aircraft for his lack of knowledge about flying the 104-N.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find a better natural pilot, but when it came to the technical aspects of more advanced machines, Gen. Yeager couldn't keep up with the technically educated pilots. There's ample evidence that Gen. Yeager was jealous of "lesser" pilots who were better educated, who came through the astronaut school at Edwards. There are so many stories how Gen. Yeager went out of his way to make the "lesser" pilots look bad or to demean them in some way.

There's a very good reason that Gen. Yeager wasn't chosen for the astronaut corps, because simply put, he couldn't keep up with the workload or the technical side of flying into space. I think it's obvious that without Jack Ridley and Bob Hoover, Gen. Yeager would have been known as a great WW2/Korea/VN combat pilot and a decent test pilot, but with his lack of education, he couldn't have flown the X-1 or subsequent aircraft without their dedication and help.

At the Apollo 8 40th anniversary event at the San Diego Air & Space Museum, there was a group of us talking with Bob Hoover (one of the greatest pilots of all time and a true class act). Someone who didn't know him walked up shook his hand and asked who he was. I thought it was poor taste for this guy to walk up to Bob, who had 10-15 people around him and ask who he was. It reminded me of people walking around an event asking for autographs, without knowing who their asking an autograph from. So in my smart ass comeback, I said loud enough for the group of people to hear, "This is Bob Hoover, the man who made Chuck Yeager famous." The blank look on the man's face told the group volumes and we all had a good laugh at that one one liner.

Unfortunately so many people think that The Right Stuff was accurate in it's depiction of test pilots and Gen. Yeager in particular. Like Wally Schirra told me when I asked for his opinion about the movie, he said "it was Animal House in space" and "I didn't like that movie at all." Wally hated the way Gus was portrayed as panic stricken and scared, as if he was the Barney Fife of the astronaut corps, especially since Gus was considered by his peers to be the finest engineer and pilot of the Mercury 7.

capoetc
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From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 11-26-2010 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Man, to read this thread it sounds like Yeager was just a bumbling idiot who somehow lucked his way into the history books.

I suppose we can believe Smith's (R.I.P.) account (and the accounts of those who say it was all Yeager's fault) fully, or we can believe Yeager's account (and the accounts of those who supported him) fully, or we can assume that the truth falls somewhere in the middle.

Personally, I think the truth falls somewhere in the middle, but likely closer to Bob Smith's account than Yeager's.

Still, the altitude record attempt was not "unauthorized" as suggested above -- it was directed by LeMay, as is corroborated by Smith's account (some will say Yeager got LeMay to agree to it, and they may be right, but it still was not unauthorized).

Yeager may have been many things in his life, and there is no question that he made plenty of "professional enemies" along the way. Still, he was a war hero, and he was selected over other military test pilots (with engineering degrees) to fly the X-1 past Mach 1. To depict him as a bumbling idiot, which seems to be what has happened on this thread, seems a bit ... ungracious ... to me.

As a side note, I have mentioned to several friends that I am no longer going to post anything on cS (opinion-wise) other than in direct regard to collectibles. It is just too difficult, and frequently quite pointless. I have violated that self-directed edict here, an act for which I hope I will not be regretful.

Spacepsycho
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From: Huntington Beach, Calif.
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 11-27-2010 11:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacepsycho   Click Here to Email Spacepsycho     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You're being a bit defensive about this and if you read all of the posts, nobody called Gen. Yeager a bumbling idiot or questioned his incredible service to this country. There is no doubt that he is one of the finest natural pilots to strap on an airplane, he is a war hero in WW2, Korea and VN. He was a very good test pilot who pushed the envelope, but he wasn't the end all to be all as The Right Stuff portrayed him. There were many pilots who could have accomplished what Gen. Yeager did and who were unfairly slammed in movies that wanted to glorify Gen. Yeager's accomplishments.

Gen. Yeager clearly states in his first book that he credits the success of the X-1 program to Jack Ridley and Bob Hoover, by teaching him the engineering and technical expertise that he didn't have. It's not a slam against him by saying he didn't have the education required by later test pilots, it's the truth. It's well documented that Gen. Yeager tried to show up pilots coming through the astronaut school at EAFB. As far as professional enemies he made, from what I've been told by Gen. Yeager's peers, they were well deserved.

The fact is that Gen. Yeager did things that no other test pilot could get away with, specifically because of his connections with the brass and politicians. The fact is that Gen. Yeager was responsible for the loss of the NF-104 because of his arrogance, ignorance of the flight control systems, not following the checklist and flight plan. These factors resulted in the loss of a very expensive and vital test bed aircraft program that couldn't be replaced.

I think many of the test pilots who know Gen. Yeager have kept silent of the way he treated underlings, because they didn't want to stir the pot and they knew their careers would be affected if they said anything.

Nothing anyone says here will have an affect on Gen. Yeager's legacy in the public's eyes, however, there are more than a few thorns on that rosy legacy of his.

albatron
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Posts: 2804
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 11-27-2010 12:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for albatron   Click Here to Email albatron     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by capoetc:
Personally, I think the truth falls somewhere in the middle, but likely closer to Bob Smith's account than Yeager's.
Having known Bob Smith closely, and knowing the man of integrity he as, and seeing how Yeager's actions nearly destroyed his career, I would have to say IN SPITE of that, Bob's account on his website is probably the closest.

But hey that's just me. I DO agree however, Yeager was not a bumbling fool and deserves credit for his accomplishments (in spite of Wheaties Welch beating him to the sound barrier... )

I think the problem is his ego and how it's exacerbated situations over the years.

So you're correct, he's no fool.

I still think Bob Hoover was a much better pilot.

capoetc
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From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 11-27-2010 12:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by albatron:
I still think Bob Hoover was a much better pilot.
Reminds me of an exchange on ESPN's Sunday NFL Countdown a couple weeks ago.

Question was asked, "Who's the better QB, Peyton Manning or Tom Brady?". When it became Mike Ditka's turn, he said, "It's a stupid question. They're both great."

Spacepsycho
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From: Huntington Beach, Calif.
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 11-28-2010 01:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacepsycho   Click Here to Email Spacepsycho     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Using the analogy of comparing football players to test pilots is like comparing 1st graders to Einstein. There are many thousands of great football players, anyone can learn to be a great football player, but only a handful who are capable of being great test pilots.

However, you are correct in that Bob Hoover is a great test pilot. He's universally considered by his peers to be one of the best, which is something none of the other test pilots from that era say about Gen. Yeager.

While Gen. Yeager is an excellent stick and rudder pilot, he gained fame because of the X-1 program and parlayed it into a very successful career. As anyone knowledgeable of the history of test pilots know, he is not in the same league of Bob Hoover. Was Gen. Yeager a good test pilot, no doubt, is he a hero, absolutely no question, however, there are many other test pilots from the same timeframe whose accomplishments and contributions far outweigh his. Unfortunately the history of these test pilots from that era, are known only to a few who are interested in the field.

capoetc
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Posts: 2221
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 11-28-2010 03:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You're right. I officially give up.

albatron
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Posts: 2804
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 11-28-2010 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for albatron   Click Here to Email albatron     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by capoetc:
"It's a stupid question. They're both great."
LOL Point well taken. I will have to add though, most of the test pilots and astronauts I speak to tell me the same. After themselves. ;0

As for me, I'll opt for Manning.

quote:
Originally posted by capoetc:
You're right. I officially give up.
Don't - this is an interesting conversation. No one's taking away from Yeager, nor should they.

DChudwin
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From: Lincolnshire IL USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 11-28-2010 08:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DChudwin   Click Here to Email DChudwin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
While I don't know all the Edwards history, I do think it is helpful to distinguish between a great pilot and a great test pilot.

Yeager is certainly a great pilot-- an instinctive flyer with good vision and stick-and-rudder skills, as shown by his heroic World War II combat record.

However, others may have been better test pilots, which involves a different set of skill involving precise flight manuevers and engineering evaluations.

One analogy that comes to mind is the differences among the Mercury astronauts. For example, in my opinion, Wally Schirra was a better test pilot than Gordo Cooper, even though Gordo was a great pilot.

onesmallstep
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From: Staten Island, New York USA
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posted 11-29-2010 04:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for onesmallstep   Click Here to Email onesmallstep     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Great," "Greatest," "Greatest Ever" are all subjective and not objective titles, and yes, you cannot compare one test/combat pilot from one era to another.

Suffice to say, those who broke the sound barrier first at Machs 1, 2, 3 and beyond all deserve praise and recognition. However, when asking if Yeager would have made a good astronaut, it's about the capability the pilot shows in working with others, in sharing his and others' mistakes/errors to advance aerospace engineering, that makes an excellent test pilot.

No one has ever accused Yeager of being humble (that's his right), but as was pointed out, he certainly has a lot of detractors. One unfortunate episode erupted after Scott Crossfield's death, with Yeager eagerly offering up a plane crash theory and criticism of his fellow Edwards test pilot and rival. I wonder if the same thing happened to him, would people jump to early conclusions and speculation while the family is still mourning?

Note: Although Yeager did fly combat in WW 2 in a P-51, and in 1966 flew B-57s out of Clark AFB in the Philippines during Vietnam, he did not see action in Korea — but he did deploy to South Korea during the USS Pueblo crisis in 1968.

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