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Author
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Topic: Fallen astronauts omitted from Space Mirror
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lunarrv15
Member Posts: 1361
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, Hamilton
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 02-11-2005 08:10 PM
   
Browsing the Astronaut Memorial Foundation site, this sentence caught my attention and I am wondering how come Patricia Hilliard Robertson is not listed. She was going through training. AMF honors all U.S. astronauts and astronauts who flew with U.S. crews on American Space Ships, who have lost their lives while on missions or in training. Twenty-four astronauts are now honored by AMF. |
ColinBurgess
Member Posts: 2153
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 02-11-2005 09:48 PM
The Astronaut Memorial Foundation sets regulations on who should be honoured and who they exclude. Patricia Hilliard-Robertson was undergoing astronaut training, not mission training. You'll find that Stephen Thorne's name is also absent, because he had never been assigned to a mission. That aside, the AMF chooses to honour an Air Force astronaut who might one day have flown on MOL before it was cancelled, but only because political pressure was applied to have him recognised. They choose to honour a teacher, and an Israeli air force officer, and an X-15 pilot, but deny recognition to Ed Givens, who was also an Air Force astronaut, a NASA astronaut, and who was involved in intensive training for a probable upcoming mission as a support crew member for Apollos 1 and 7. It disappoints me that the AMF board (which contains a couple of former astronauts) shift their own goalposts to suit themselves, or when some political pressure is applied. But it disgusts me when they openly state in their mandate that they recognise and honour those astronauts who have given their lives for NASA and their nation, and then tell Ed Givens' bewildered children that he was excluded from their "honour roll" because he was not on duty or in training when he died, which is absolute rubbish. I have tried to ask why they will not consider Ed Givens, and have sent documentary evidence on his life and career, but their only response is not to respond. I am completely appalled at their complete lack of sensitivity to the families of these men and women, and I don't care who knows it. |
John K. Rochester
Member Posts: 1292
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 02-12-2005 11:00 PM
Ed, an astronaut hero who deserves recognition? Thats a "Givens"... pardon the pun. |
OV-105
Member Posts: 911
From: Ridgecrest, CA
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 02-13-2005 12:12 AM
If they had put Patricia Hillard on then they would have to put Dave Griggs on. He was assigned to STS-33 when he was also lost in private plane accident back in 1989. I guess AMF falls under the "it's my game and my rules and I can change them to what I want when I want" |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 51990
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-13-2005 12:22 AM
The question is: why make the rules for inclusion so complicated? Why not something as simple as "all individuals selected or trained by the U.S. for space flight that died while still active in the program"? |
ColinBurgess
Member Posts: 2153
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 02-13-2005 01:22 AM
Hear, hear, Robert. Any day you want to join the AMF board you'll have my vote. |
ASCAN1984
Member Posts: 1050
From: County Down, Nothern Ireland
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-13-2005 06:08 AM
You have my vote as well. |
OV-105
Member Posts: 911
From: Ridgecrest, CA
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 02-13-2005 08:28 AM
I agree with you Robert but that would make it too easy. We all know anything that has to do with the space program can not be easy. I hate to put it this way but it is like any "club" and one that I hope no one else becomes a member or, the company of people are great but the price of membership is too great. |
star61
Member Posts: 313
From: Bristol UK
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 02-13-2005 08:29 AM
Is Bob Overmyer on the list? Killed testing a small private aircraft I believe, but I think you could say he made a pretty decent contribution to manned spaceflight! |
OV-105
Member Posts: 911
From: Ridgecrest, CA
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 02-14-2005 06:32 PM
I believe that Bob Overmyer had left NASA already. Maybe we need to start a Astronaut Memorial for everyone who has had the title of Astronaut who has passed. Who can say that the cancer that Dave Walker and Lacy Veach and any other astronaut has was not in some way from there flights? |
eurospace
Member Posts: 2681
From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 02-15-2005 05:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by OV-105:
Maybe we need to start a Astronaut Memorial for everyone who has had the title of Astronaut who has passed.
Since we can safely assume that ALL astronauts die one day, sooner or later, this would be a very large memorial indeed... |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1389
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 02-17-2008 04:23 AM
Should Patricia Robertson's name be on the space mirror at KSC? She died flying. Any thoughts? |
ColinBurgess
Member Posts: 2153
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 02-17-2008 04:58 AM
The flying that day was recreational and not mission related. She had neither flown into space nor was she engaged in specific mission training, so under the AMF's strict rules she sadly doesn't qualify to be on the mirror. |
ASCAN1984
Member Posts: 1050
From: County Down, Nothern Ireland
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-17-2008 05:06 AM
I would love that to happen but unfortunately she was not in training for or died for a flight and it is not very likely that this would happen as the mirror only recognises those who died in the service of spaceflight either training or in the process of flight. I can imagine though if she was put up there that a lot of other astronauts families would ask why there loved on is not up there. So i guess my answer as hard it is to say would be no that she should not be added. Found this article on collectSPACE at the time of the accident. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1734
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 02-17-2008 09:00 AM
I have a question related to the AMF mirror.Why is it that the Challenger crew and Columbia crew are listed in four different panels? The panels sure look large enough to list all 7 names together. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 51990
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-17-2008 09:49 AM
It may be a structural issue. When the two Columbia panels were being etched, replacement panels needed to be found before the two to be inscribed were removed, as the wall could not sustain their prolonged absence. It may be that etching seven names into one piece of granite would sufficiently weaken its load bearing capability. Of course, it could have just been an aesthetic decision, too. |
icarkie
Member Posts: 618
From: BURTON ON TRENT /England
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted 02-17-2008 12:26 PM
I lent my mate the Fallen Astronauts book the other month back so I cannot recall all that was written.On the AMF site we're told that Sonny Carter was on official NASA business in a plane that crashed. Without checking up in the book, I thought Ed Givens was on NASA business? That was why he was riving back from a town near Houston in June 67. After getting my book signed by Colin here in the UK a few years ago I was in agreement with him with on this subject of the omission on the mirror. It's a shame that a gray area in the rules on who can (eg: Robert Lawrence?) and who can't go on can cause hurt with their loved ones. |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3294
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 02-17-2008 01:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ian:
I thought Ed Givens was on NASA business?
Not officially - he was attending a meeting of the Quiet Birdmen (as was Gordo Cooper), which is a private aviators' organization, and he was doing it as a personal thing and not on NASA orders. The possible gray area here is that NASA astronauts were never truly considered to be "off duty" - for example, if Givens had done something embarrassing at this meeting, his NASA bosses would have had no problem calling him on the carpet and disciplining him for letting down the astronaut corps. So I understand the arguments made on his behalf. In my opinion, the AMF did seem to bend their rules a little to include Carter - and have since amended their rules over time (rightly) to include Ramon, who before the Columbia disaster would have been ineligible. I like Robert's idea of "all individuals selected or trained by the U.S. for space flight that died while still active in the program" - perhaps instead of mirror panels, these people could be included on a stone marker or similar in the mirror area? It would not please everyone, but might go some way towards helping ease the hurt some families have felt when their astronaut was omitted. Would anyone here care to compile such a list and post here, for those who are not already included on the mirror? Off the top of my head, and deepest apologies if I have forgotten anyone, a list of those who died while still on the astronaut roster would be: - Ed Givens
- Dave Griggs
- Patty Hilliard Robertson
- Stephen Thorne
- Lacy Veach (I am assuming he was taken off flight status by at least 1993 - but to my knowledge was still listed as a NASA astronaut when he died in '95?)
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Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 02-17-2008 06:52 PM
In my opinion, if Carter is on that memorial, then Dave Griggs should be as well since both these astronauts were assigned to flights when they died. The only difference is that Carter was a passenger entirely, while Dave was in the pilot's seat of the plane that he died in.Robinson at least has the highest flying memorial of those shuttle era astronauts who have fallen as her flightsuit nametag and a picture of her are onboard the ISS, placed there by her fellow classmates who have flown to the ISS. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1734
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 02-17-2008 08:08 PM
This photo from STS-118 shows Patricia Robertson's flight suit name tag and photo aboard ISS.  |
KSCartist
Member Posts: 3076
From: Titusville, FL
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 02-18-2008 07:03 AM
Jay, I respect your opinion but Sonny Carter was on "official business" when the plane crashed. Dave Griggs was piloting a stunt plane (on his own time).Also Carter was killed just a month prior to the Astronaut Memorial dedication in 1991. An interesting connection between Carter and Griggs. Carter's first flight was aboard STS-33 the flight that Dave Griggs would have piloted. (Griggs was replaced by John Blaha) The crew added a gold five pointed star to the patch honoring Griggs who was a Rear Admiral designate in the USN. After Carter's death the STS-42 crew placed a gold star on that patch as well. |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 02-18-2008 12:07 PM
I know Tim, freaky isn't it about Dave and Sonny. Oh well, this is one of those things where I doubt that people posting here will fully agree on anything as it all boils down to a certain criteria.Of course if we didn't have disagreements, then the world would be a lot more boring place. By the way, if you look close at the photo that Morgan and Caldwell are holding of Clay and Sunita, you will notice that Patricia Robertson's picture and wings are visible in it as well (since it was shot in the same location that Morgan and Caldwell are in). It was a picture taken during STS-117. |
nelyubov
Member Posts: 142
From: USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 02-19-2008 10:50 AM
Under the rules, that one must have died as a result of a NASA mission or in training would not X-15 Astronaut Jack McKay qualify? He died of his injuries sustained in a crash of the X-15, although years later. Or am I mistaken about the causes of his death? |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1748
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 02-19-2008 11:25 AM
McKay's bio states that he died from "liver failure due to complications from an X-15 crash years earlier." |
ColinBurgess
Member Posts: 2153
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 01-25-2020 06:41 PM
When on earth will the Astronauts Memorial Foundation finally "commemorate and honor" NASA astronaut Ed Givens "for his sacrifice and contribution to human spaceflight" by placing his name on the Space Mirror Memorial? It seems that exceptions are being made all the time, yet this man, deep in training for a probable Apollo mission, continues to be shamefully ignored by the Foundation. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3904
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-28-2024 11:34 AM
How about Joseph Walker? I think his name should be up there on the Space Mirror Memorial.Joseph Walker was the first NASA pilot to fly the X-15. He made three X-15 spaceflights, including the highest and second highest altitudes reached in the X-15 program. He was the first test pilot to fly the LLRV, and flew it 35 times. He also received the NASA Distinguished Service Medal. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 51990
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-28-2024 11:46 AM
It would be difficult to make the case that Walker died in the service of the nation's space exploration efforts when his tragic death came during a formation flight for a General Electric publicity photo. That does not in any way diminish his place in aeronautics and astronautics history, but does omit him from this particular memorial. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3904
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-28-2024 01:16 PM
I believe Walker was flying a NASA F-104N Starfighter when he was killed in that mid-air collision. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 51990
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-28-2024 01:17 PM
Yes, but not on a training or research flight. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1890
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 02-29-2024 08:14 AM
It is going too far honoring those that died just because their occupation was astronaut. The honor should be in the line of duty (participating or training for a spaceflight). First responders or military don't get such recognition. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1748
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 02-29-2024 12:23 PM
Givens was part of the team of astronauts selected, training and working to get us to the moon. If he hadn't been part of that team chances are he would've been somewhere else on the night of that accident. I think his addition to the mirror is absolutely appropriate. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 51990
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-29-2024 12:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Behling:
...just because their occupation was astronaut.
Not all memorials need to be for every member of an activity. The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial in Washington, D.C. does not include file clerks or others who support the officers doing their jobs, even in the rare instance they die on the job. Likewise, the Memorial Wall in the CIA's headquarters building only lists agents lost in the line of collecting intelligence, while many others work for the agency. quote:
First responders or military don't get such recognition.
I am sure I am misunderstanding this, because it seems too obvious a reply: the World I Memorial, the World War II Memorial, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial (and I could go on). As for first responders, in addition to the officers memorial mentioned above, there is also the National Fallen Firefighters Memorial, to name just one example. While it is true there are no national monuments to space workers, they are honored on the Mercury, Gemini, Apollo and space shuttle monuments maintained by the U.S. Space Walk of Fame Foundation. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1890
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 02-29-2024 02:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Delta7:
Givens was part of the team of astronauts...
No again, just a member of an occupation. The "Quiet Birdmen" is just an airmen clique, something unrelated to being an astronaut. Including him and others cheapens the honor.Rules are rules. My son did not get a Purple Heart from getting hit in the face from a rock thrown by an Iraqi prisoner. He got a concussion and stitches. He was injured in a war zone on duty, but because the rock was thrown by a non combatant, he did not qualify. As for the "on duty 24/7," that applies to others like the military. But they don't get honored if they aren't KIA. quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
As for first responders, in addition to the officers memorial mentioned above, there is also the National Fallen Firefighters Memorial, to name just one example.
That's what I meant, there are only memorials for those who have fallen on the job. Not for those that just have the job. |
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