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Author
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Topic: Heritage Sept. 2007 Air & Space auction
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Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2915
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 09-16-2007 06:51 PM
   
Larry -- I haven't seen Heritage's Goddard book lot description, but I do recall reading a letter (on NASA stationery) some years back from Aldrin himself addressing a Goddard book that was flown to the moon. It was my understanding that a small Goddard book, just one, was a part of Apollo 11's PPKs.In the Aldrin letter, written post-flight late 1969 or early 1970, the second Apollo moonwalker wrote that the book would be returned to the Goddard Library at Clark University in Worcester, MA. It was at Clark, in Goddard's hometown, where he taught physics more than 100 years ago. A little-known fact about Goddard and Aldrin; It was one of Goddard's students and a former associate of the Wright brothers that first introduced Charles Lindbergh to Goddard. That student was Aldrin's father, Edwin Aldrin, Sr. It only seems appropriate, huh, why Aldrin would agree to carry something Goddard-related on their epic voyage to the moon. Somewhere, Larry, I do have a copy of that Aldrin letter that I'll try to locate as time permits. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-16-2007 08:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Havekotte:
I do recall reading a letter (on NASA stationery) some years back from Aldrin himself addressing a Goddard book that was flown to the moon.
I believe that this is the letter you recall:  quote:
It was my understanding that a small Goddard book, just one, was a part of Apollo 11's PPKs.
Per another document in my files, comes the following: quote:
Colonel Aldrin put in his jacket pocket and took to the moon, without, however thinking to advise NASA of this small, non-official cargo. Not being allowed to leave the book there (the anti-pollution drive having already reached the moon), Colonel Aldrin brought it back with him.On his return to Planet Earth, Aldrin wrote Mr. St. Onge on September 26, 1969, thinking him for the copies of the Goddard book, stating that "one copy was flown to the moon aboard Apollo 11," and asking permission to retain possession of that copy for preservation at a later date to the Clark University Goddard Collection.
As cited in the above description (for which I sadly do not have a source), but also referenced in the letter, Aldrin was provided two copies of the book, though only one flew. Clark University, on its website, describes its Robert Hutchings Goddard Exhibition Room as including "the Autobiography of Robert H. Goddard and U.S. flag which were flown to the moon on board Apollo 11, America's first lunar landing, July 20, 1969". Has anyone checked (recently) that Clark still retains custody of the book? |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2915
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 09-16-2007 09:25 PM
Robert -- That certainly helps to clear up the issue; only a single copy, as I thought, went to the moon. I was a bit surprised to see from your post that it wasn't a part of Aldrin's, or the Apollo 11 crew, PPKs. To my knowledge, there was an article -- somewhere -- written about the Goddard book that went to the moon. During my teenage years I did receive some letters from Mrs. Goddard along with the Clark University's Goddard Library. In the back of my mind I do recall reading something -- a copied article or brochure -- received from either Mrs. Goddard or from the Library's office pertaining to this very topic. Perhaps it might be able to shed more light and details about the Goddard moon book... I'll try to locate as time permits. |
lunareagle
Member Posts: 587
From: Michigan
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-17-2007 03:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Larry McGlynn:
I do have a question of the Goddard book that Heritage should check on. Did Buzz take two Goddard books to the Moon?
Larry - This would be a question for Dr. Aldrin directly. We strictly received the book from him with certification as to its flown status. Thank you. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 09-17-2007 03:44 PM
The question I have is that, if indeed the Clark copy is said to have been flown to the moon, and he only flew one copy, does that mean the copy currently up for auction wasn't flown...or were both copies actually flown? Or is perhaps the Clark copy is mistakenly thought to be flown, when it really isn't? Based on the letter shown in this thread, it makes it sound like only one copy was flown and that copy was intended to be donated to either Mrs. Goddard or Clark. Assuming that donation took place, what does that say about the copy up for auction (assuming, of course, Clark didn't give the book back to Buzz to auction...which seems unlikely)?Or am I missing something here? |
rjurek349
Member Posts: 1190
From: Northwest Indiana
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 09-17-2007 07:28 PM
It is interesting. I went to the Goddard Library website. As you can see from the link, they have an image on their website of the book and flag...and the book is inscribed with blue ink and looks a lot like Buzz's handwriting. The one at Heritage has an inscription that is in pencil (and includes the E E Aldrin). If only one flew, both could not have. And these are clearly two separate books. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2915
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 09-17-2007 07:36 PM
Nice work, jurek349, as it has always been my understanding the Goddard "moon-bound" book was presented to Clark. Can anyone read Aldrin's inscription from the provided scan? How is the Goddard book described in the upcoming Heritage auction--flown or not? |
rjurek349
Member Posts: 1190
From: Northwest Indiana
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 09-17-2007 07:58 PM
Thanks, Ken. The scan on the Clark website is small. But it seems to read to me "Flown to the moon aboard Apollo 11" and then the dates and year of the flight, and then Buzz's very typical signature. Rich |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 09-17-2007 08:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Havekotte:
How is the Goddard book described in the upcoming Heritage auction--flown or not?
It is described as flown and Aldrin (presumably) has written "Flown on Apollo 11, July 16-24-'69, EE Aldrin Jr, (then signed) Buzz Aldrin.The notable difference between the Clark example and [URL=http://images.heritagecoin.com/images/NewNames/75/8/2/8/828876.jpg]the Heritage example[/UR] is the very neat writing in the Clark copy and very sloppy-looking writing in the Heritage copy. From all appearances, both copies appear to have been signed at different times. |
Jay
Member Posts: 82
From: Bloomington, Illinois, USA
Registered: May 2005
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posted 09-18-2007 12:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
The notable difference between the Clark example and the Heritage example is the very neat writing in the Clark copy and very sloppy-looking writing in the Heritage copy. From all appearances, both copies appear to have been signed at different times.
10 more questions for Buzz... anyone? |
Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1255
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 09-18-2007 01:34 PM
Howard,I think the Heritage auction is not only excellent, but an excellent idea of yours. However, I still think this is a question Heritage needs to ask Dr. Aldrin. The book's flown status is now in doubt. On a matter not required of Heritage, Dr. Aldrin should probably consider the release his Apollo 11 PPK list as proof of the amount of Goddard books flown. As the price of these momentos increase to mid five figures, the provenance should be absolutely without doubt. Although, it is not my intention to make a decision for the auction house, but if a lot is in question such as the Goddard book, then it should be pulled until the question is resolved. ------------------
Larry McGlynn
A Tribute to Apollo |
machbusterman
Member Posts: 1778
From: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
Registered: May 2004
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posted 09-18-2007 02:13 PM
I have heard others whisper that, for enough money, Buzz will pretty much validate anything as being flown to the moon.In this instance it would appear that either the book at Clark or the book in the auction are in fact UN-FLOWN. Perhaps someone can ask this question at the Q&A after Buzz's talk at Autographica?  |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-18-2007 02:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by machbusterman:
I have heard others whisper that, for enough money, Buzz will pretty much validate anything as being flown to the moon.
I think I can debunk that "whisper" right now. As many know, I have worked with Buzz for many years, originally through the National Space Society and as a web designer, as a consultant to his ShareSpace Foundation and through Space Adventures, and recently as one of a handful of dealers that have marketed his autograph and memorabilia. If anyone was in the position to have an item marked as flown, I would be... I have two pieces that were purportedly flown on Apollo 11. The provenance for these pieces is not rock solid, either because NASA has since destroyed the records that would have allowed their serial numbers to be checked or, in one case, it was literally the wrapper to the items that it once carried. Even so, I gathered what evidence existed and presented it to Buzz to inscribe as "flown". I offered to pay him for the service and explained that the certifications were not for the purpose of resale but rather for presentation reasons within my own collection. He kindly refused, explaining that if it wasn't in his control since the flight, there would be no way for him to know if it flew. Now, if he wouldn't do that for someone he knows very well, why would he do it for a stranger, wherein the risk of being caught would be greater? |
Richard
New Member Posts: 5
From: Morrisonville, New York USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted 09-18-2007 02:43 PM
Could it be just an honest mistake. We have to remember that it was almost 40 years ago and each astronaut took multiple items to the moon. It may be that he found the extra copy and just thought it was the flown copy. I don't think we should jump to any conclusions yet. |
rjurek349
Member Posts: 1190
From: Northwest Indiana
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 09-18-2007 02:50 PM
Agreed on not jumping to conclusions. It could be that both books flew -the language in the above letter is vague enough. The issue, in my mind, is that now that it is a raised issue, it simply needs to be clarified by auction time.And Robert-thanks for that personal anecdote about Buzz an certification. For those of us with flown Buzz material in our collections, whispers and rumors do more harm than good, and fact and personal experience solidify the faith in provenance. |
machbusterman
Member Posts: 1778
From: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
Registered: May 2004
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posted 09-18-2007 02:53 PM
Robert, thanks for your post. Despite your assurance I still think THIS item needs further investigation. Buzz has signed/notated two of copies of this books as flown yet it is known that only one of them was flown aboard Apollo 11. So how is it that Buzz now has another Goddard book said to be flown to the moon? Did he give Clark the unflown copy and tell them that it was flown? (in which case, it would be a lie). Or did he later decide to write "flown to the moon" in the unflown copy in order to automatically turn a $500 item into a $25,000 item with a few strokes of his pencil? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-18-2007 03:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by machbusterman:
...yet it is known that only one of them was flown aboard Apollo 11.
Actually, we don't know that. The only facts we know from that letter are that: - Aldrin received two books from St. Onge; and,
- Of the two books, one book was flown and retained by Aldrin for presentation to Mrs. Goddard or the Clark University library.
The letter does not negate the possibility that the second book flew, but does establish that there was a second book. The letter only serves to notify St. Onge that one book was not left on the surface (as was requested) and where that book was now destined.So while I agree with Larry that Heritage should make every effort to clarify this situation with Aldrin prior to the auction, I have yet to see anything that suggests that this book could not have also flown on Apollo 11. |
chuckj
New Member Posts:
From:
Registered:
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posted 09-18-2007 04:33 PM
The Apollo 11 maps can be found here. I think the map in question here is of an alternative landing site and that can be found here. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2915
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 09-18-2007 06:11 PM
From reading Aldrin's letter to St. Onge in Sept. 1969, yes, two books were received by Buzz as stated. From my understanding, it appears nothing was said about flying a second book, and possibly returning one of the two copies back to Onte. If such was the case, wouldn't Aldrin had mentioned such an action? He did ask permission to present one of the copies, that was carried by him, to either Mrs. Goddard or the Clark library. If indeed two copies of the minature Goddard book were in fact flown, why wouldn't Aldrin refer to it in his letter to Onge? No mention whatsoever!On a personal note, with weight limitations and carrying artifact restrictions, I can't see why Aldrin would carry two copies with him since it wasn't a part of his own preference kit. Secondly, the minature books were not owned by Aldrin, so I don't think he would fly one and keep it himself. Perhaps give one back to St. Onge -- but -- I don't think Aldrin was in a position to fly a second book for a space program fan. That would be unfair to many others that had requested similar "favors." From my interpretation of the letter, though, there was absolutely nothing said about Onge getting a flown copy back. If there was indeed a second copy that flew with Apollo 11, wouldn't Aldrin address that issue as well in his letter? Perhaps not, but I do agree with Larry and others, it should be addressed to Aldrin directly so that hopefully it can be cleared up before the auction gets underway. As stated earlier, there is certainly a big price difference if the book went to the moon or not on man's first lunar landing mission. |
driftingtotheright
unregistered
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posted 09-19-2007 04:32 PM
Please see prior post re descent chart. Does the figure "7+00" possibly represent the position of the LM @ 7 min. after a non-initiated PDI? Regards,
Jerry |
Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1255
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 09-19-2007 06:25 PM
The figure 7+00 refers the number of minutes prior to touchdown on the lunar surface. ------------------
Larry McGlynn
A Tribute to Apollo |
driftingtotheright
unregistered
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posted 09-19-2007 08:38 PM
Larry, on later flights, eg.A17, such was the case. But if you look at the more easterly descent charts for A11, the minus numbers count down to PDI.
Best,
Jerry |
Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1255
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 09-19-2007 09:24 PM
Jerry,I was looking at the landing site map from the Apollo 17 chart in my collection. The section shows 1+00 to 0+00. The 0+00 is located right at the landing site at Taurus-Littrow. You are probably right since the charts that I have seen cover about a third of the equatorial circumference of the Moon. The PDI probably started three or four sections into the chart and the touchdown occurred just before the chart ended. We should probably take this discussion to another thread, since the topic of the Goddard book has not been resolved by Heritage and their representatives. ------------------
Larry McGlynn
A Tribute to Apollo |
lunareagle
Member Posts: 587
From: Michigan
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-20-2007 11:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
The letter does not negate the possibility that the second book flew, but does establish that there was a second book.
Heritage received word back yesterday from Lisa Cannon, President of StarBuzz Enterprises, LLC., Dr. Aldrin's public relations agency, about the Goodard book questions. Here is her E-mail quote."I just spoke with Buzz, and confirmed that he took two Robert Goddard books to the moon on Apollo 11. He presented one of them to Robert Goddard's widow upon his return from the moon, and the other one he kept. The latter is the one being auctioned off tomorrow with you". |
rjurek349
Member Posts: 1190
From: Northwest Indiana
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 09-20-2007 01:16 PM
There we go, then. Confirmed. Thanks for the follow up. Let the bidding begin... :-) |
Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1255
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 09-20-2007 01:50 PM
Howard,If Buzz says the book flew, then it's good. Thanks for the update. Regards, ------------------
Larry McGlynn
A Tribute to Apollo |
SRB
Member Posts: 258
From:
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 09-20-2007 02:26 PM
Buzz's word is as good as gold, but it wouldn't hurt if he and the other Apollo astronauts made public the lists of items carried in their PPKs. These lists, to me, are no longer purely private information but corroboration for substantial commercial transactions involving the astronauts. |
mensax
Member Posts: 861
From: Virginia
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 09-20-2007 02:39 PM
My experiences with Buzz go along with what you guys are saying... that his word is solid. I once asked Buzz to sign an item that flew to the Moon on Apollo 11... not to authenticate it, but just to sign it. He refused stating that someone might interpret his signature as an authentication. At the time it was a bit frustrating for me... but afterwards it proved to only further validate in my mind any items that came from him.Noah |
stsmithva
Member Posts: 1933
From: Fairfax, VA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 09-20-2007 04:40 PM
Here's something I've noticed of a couple of auctions that is true of the Heritage auction: the eBay live bid end times are usually in the wee hours of the morning, around 3:00 a.m. Why is this? Surely there are not floor bidders still at it by then.Wait, here's my guess- the auction houses know they can't possibly predict exactly when the floor auction will end. But how DO Internet bidders know when the item has actually appeared on the floor? I know this is asking for a basic tutorial on Internet/live bidding, but if anyone has first-hand experience and wants to tell about it, that would be great. EDIT: Never mind, I just clicked on "View Live" and saw how you get to see it in realtime. Rather addictive! Steve
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Richard
New Member Posts: 5
From: Morrisonville, New York USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted 09-20-2007 05:55 PM
See, just don't jump to conclusions. I knew there was an explanation. |
poofacio
Member Posts: 268
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted 09-20-2007 09:08 PM
Watching this auction has inclined me towards ignoring advice about plexiglass and hanging all my photos in a greenhouse for a few years to enhance their value! |
rjurek349
Member Posts: 1190
From: Northwest Indiana
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 09-20-2007 09:21 PM
LOL on the sunlight effect. Some water damage doesn't seem to hurt, either. :-)Seriously, some very, very impressive and eye popping prices. |
DCCollector
Member Posts: 227
From: Washington, DC USA
Registered: Dec 2006
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posted 09-20-2007 09:58 PM
Pretty amazing prices for some of the items. I was surprised at the prices some of the Robbins medallions went for - especially the unflown ones. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-20-2007 11:10 PM
Heritage: Prices Realized for 2007 September Grand Format Air & Space AuctionTotal for this sale: $1,132,705.30 |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 09-20-2007 11:29 PM
$150k for the A11 prayer card from Buzz's collection. And that doesn't include the buyer's premium. Wow.I got a few of the lots I really wanted, but yeah, prices seemed to be running higher than one would expect for certain items. HA really goes out of their way to give you plenty of bidding options...pre-sale internet, phone, mail-in, HA live, Ebay live, in person, etc. Viewing the auction live was a rather interesting experience. In general, I'm quite impressed with HA so far. |
SRB
Member Posts: 258
From:
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 09-21-2007 08:51 AM
As a first time bidder at a Heritage auction I am amazed at the quality and speed of their service. For online bidding and watching the auction live, it was easy to download and install the software. The picture and sound was very good. The bidding process easy. When the prices realized were posted within minutes of the end of the auction, I couldn't believe it happened so quickly. Then my invoice arrived first thing this morning and with a few clicks I could pay by credit card. In so many different ways this is the best and easiest auction experience I've had. Heritage, thank you. To every other auction house, please match what Heritage has done. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-21-2007 09:13 AM
A postscript caveat, in case the winning bidder was among our readership, regarding Lot 25335, the "Space-Worn International Space Station Flight Suit made for U.S. astronaut E. Michael Fincke". I do not believe that this suit was flown, as was implied by the description with the words "space worn" in the title and referencing in the description a photo of "this flight suit" in space. If you read the COA provided by Kentaur-Science Co. Ltd., it specifically states that this is Coverall #205, which was "made in strict accordance to the Coverall #151, which was brought to the ISS by the 'Progress' cargo ship for use by American astronaut M. Fincke during Expedition 9." Hence, this was a replica, not the original. Fincke brought his "space worn" flight suit (presumably #151) back to Earth and still wears it to public appearances (he has specifically commented to others I spoke with that it is the flown suit he is wearing). |
andrewcli
Member Posts: 328
From: La Jolla, CA, USA
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 09-21-2007 09:25 AM
I have a question.I noticed two items that closed at one dollar. One was the list of astronauts signatures written on a plain piece of paper as if it was a sign in sheet. The second was a "cut" autograph of Neil Armstrong, but it did not have a photo of it. What happened? Did these items really go for 1 dollar or was it a computer click for an item recently removed? |
marsguy
Member Posts: 23
From: Texas, USA
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 09-21-2007 10:10 AM
My wife and I attended the auction last night. It was the first auction of this type that we have attended live. Normally I have just bid over the phone, faxed in proxy bids, or bid via eBay live.I must say that Heritage did a great job with the auction I thought. They even provided dinner which was a nice touch with the auction starting at 6 PM. The venue was nice on the first floor of their office building. They had several display cases that contained some of the artifacts from the auction. Looking at those displays was like looking at a temporary museum. One entire case was devoted to the Aldrin collection. It was very cool to see the prayer card, the Goddard book, and even Buzz's report cards from school. The room was pretty much full, but I think there were only about 14 floor bidders. The support staff manning the phones and laptops easily out numbered the live floor bidders. That really surprised me. I expected more of the collectors to attend in person. To assist the floor bidders catalogues and starting bid sheets were provided by HA. They also had a large flatscreen TV on the wall that showed the active lot as well as starting bid, closing bid, and winning bidder number. That was a nice touch I thought. As always it's fun to bid in a live auction. I had to let go of the Aldrin prayer card after it got over $140K though, just kidding! I'm happy for the bidder who one this lot, it's certainly a very historical piece. I got a few of the photo lots that were inscribed by the astronauts to Joe Garino. I was happy to get those as the inscriptions to Garino themselves I view as historical. Prices weren't too bad on the ones that I got and the quality of the photos and the ink on the inscriptions and signatures was great. I picked up a flown Gemini IV medallion for what I consider to have been a great price. The final lot that I got was the Apollo 10 flown Robbins medallion. It was pretty late by the time the auction ended. A lot of the crowd had thinned out before the Aldrin collection came up. That surprised me quite a bit. I figured that people would be interested to watch the sale of these items even if they weren't bidding. The sale of the Aldrin collection turn out to be a bidding war between the telephones. Who knows who was out there writing the checks. At the end we paid for our auction lots and were allowed to take them with us. The auction network was at the auction filming. They asked to interview my wife and I after the auction. We consented so I guess in about a month or so, we might wind up on TV. It was late so I hope I don't come off looking like too big of dork or geek, but hey it's sometimes hard to market space collectors. ;-) Happy collecting to all, jerry |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 09-21-2007 10:43 AM
quote:
Originally posted by andrewcli:
What happened? Did these items really go for 1 dollar or was it a computer click for an item recently removed?
Regarding Lot 25165, the "Neil Armstrong Cut Signature 'Neil Armstrong'": Heritage would be able to answer your question with certainty, but when I screened the autographs for Heritage in Dallas, I do recall a Neil Armstrong signature on a thick card which was a bad forgery IMO (or possibly a crude secretarial) and which was flagged for removal from the auction. As I recall, it was not a part of either the Coons or Garino collections. Lot 25165 may be that card, and was removed from the auction, hence the lack of a picture or description.The NASA attendance sheet (Lot 25270) is authentic. I am not familiar with the circumstances surrounding its realization. Scott |
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