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  Aurora Fall 2004 results

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Author Topic:   Aurora Fall 2004 results
spaced out
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From: Paris, France
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posted 10-02-2004 06:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know it ain't over but here's a few observations on the auction so far...

Why did the Mike Collins signed Apollo 11 flown flag (#320) go for just $6462.50 when previous similar flags (signed by Buzz Aldrin) sold for $20k+?

The micro-mini elephant sculpture flown on AS-11 (#331) sold for a decidedly un-micro-mini $4993.75! Makes you wonder where the other 49 members of the herd are...

The Apollo 11 crew WSS #351 went for just $2937.50. Obviously fake or autopenned shots regularly reach $5000 on eBay, so what was going on here. Did people have doubts about this one?

Apollo 12 XL flown US flags: #393 went for a staggering $35250 whilst the almost identical #397 for just $3819! I know the first one came with a nice letter but still both prices seem extreme (in different directions).

Apollo 15: My prediction that the prop cuff checklist (#494A) would go for silly money was proved right by a hefty margin at $2520! Madness when the surface-used PLSS cable from the real mission (#464B) went for only $4700! Where were all the hardware fans tonight?

Robert Pearlman
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posted 10-02-2004 06:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Full results for session one (as recorded by yours truly) are now online:

http://www.collectspace.com/webcasts/aurora_fall2004_session1.html

(Be careful factoring in the buyer's commission (as was done in the post above) because it varies between 17.5% and 20% depending how the bid was placed.)

gliderpilotuk
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posted 10-02-2004 07:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
IMHO some amazingly low prices and remarkable anomalies.
Bargains:
#121 GT-3 flown pin = only $850
#445B Ap14 flown microfilm $600 ($1400 last time around)
#535 flown Skylab flag signed by all 9 = $450 (previously over $1k)

yet:
#361 Armstrong signed check = $6000 (more than the flown Ap11 flags!!)

great prices on autopens:

#312 Ap10 = $175
#449 Ap14 = $425!! =:-0
I don't know whether internet bidders purchased these but I noted that there was no warning on the live bidding to tell buyers that these were a/p's, which IMHO is outrageous.

At least my spend was a historical low!
Paul Bramley

Robert - thanks for getting the prices out so quickly.

Rizz
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posted 10-02-2004 10:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rizz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spaced out:
Apollo 15: My prediction that the prop cuff checklist (#494A) would go for silly money was proved right by a hefty margin at $2520!

WOW for a replica !

spaceflori
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posted 10-03-2004 02:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gliderpilotuk:

great prices on autopens:

#312 Ap10 = $175
#449 Ap14 = $425!! =:-0
I don't know whether internet bidders purchased these but I noted that there was no warning on the live bidding to tell buyers that these were a/p's, which IMHO is outrageous.


And these weren't the only Autopens that sold for a couple hundred sometimes. Watching the live bidding many were indeed bought by Internet bidders.

Guess some will have a bad surprise in the mail soon...

I wonder why there were no remarks or correction posted anywhere...

Florian

machbusterman
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posted 10-03-2004 04:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for machbusterman   Click Here to Email machbusterman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My first time ever bidding on an Aurora auction and I'm happy to say that I won what I bidded on... and it definately wasn't extortionate...

Regards, Derek

nasamad
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posted 10-03-2004 04:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nasamad   Click Here to Email nasamad     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

This was my first time actually watching and bidding live, managed to snag myself two more books for my collection so I'm pleased.

Adam

spaced out
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posted 10-03-2004 04:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The autopenned shots should have been withdrawn or IMHO. It was obvious that the bidders in most cases were unaware that they were fake, and although you could argue that they should have logged onto the Aurora website to check the addendums it's still unfair to those following the auction from the catalog. Even the live eBay version still had the item titles as genuine autographed items.

On the other hand, I was pleasantly surprised to see that, unlike previous versions, this auction didn't stretch on into the early hours of the morning (European time). There seemed to be less breaks and perhaps less lots. In any case it was much easier to follow all the way through.

skippy in space
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posted 10-03-2004 04:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for skippy in space   Click Here to Email skippy in space     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
On the catalogue page on the aurora website there IS a Corrigenda which I print off before each live session.

Which clearly stated 6 AUTOPENNED lots which wern't showed in the catalogue.

Though I do have a problem that the word autopen were not used in the one line description. But also the Group individual autographs that contained autopenns were described as autographs.

IAn

gliderpilotuk
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posted 10-03-2004 07:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Other Live Auctions have managed to post comments on the items as they came up so I fail to see why Aurora couldn't do this.

If there were a single mechanism for buying then I could understand it being incumbent on the buyer to check the website for corrigenda, but with the option of Live Bidding through eBay, there was nothing I am aware of to tell the buyer to check for catalogue updates. This is poor.

The only comfort for the buyer is that Aurora are good at accepting returns...if the buyer spots the a/p in time.

Paul


Philip
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posted 10-03-2004 08:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Philip   Click Here to Email Philip     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well indeed, Internet bidders took a great deal of items and bidding went smooth and fast ...
My observation was that SIGNED photos did sell below the estimate but UNSIGNED photolots often reached the double of the estimate ( e.g. Lots 26, 260, 261, 381a, ... )
Overall 'winning bids' were lower during this first session ... Interesting to see what the vonBraun items will do today!

skippy in space
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posted 10-03-2004 09:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for skippy in space   Click Here to Email skippy in space     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Own up guys how hit the bid now button when the cuff list said $1

mensax
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posted 10-03-2004 10:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mensax   Click Here to Email mensax     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Congratulations to the buyer of the flown Apollo 11 US flag from Michael Collins. You got the steal of the show! Well done.

I believe the “50 micro-elephants” mentioned in this sale are inside the bean. So, in effect the winner of this sale bought 51 items that were flown on Apollo 11. (Not bad at all when you do the math.) I’m not certain of this fact, but if you read Michael Collins book, “Carrying the Fire” he writes about taking this item in his PPK, and his amazement that 50 elephants could fit in a bean.

Congratulations also to the buyers of the Apollo 8 patch, the Apollo 14 $20 bill, and the Apollo 15 surface patch… all tremendous items with terrific authentication.

I am probably the only one who admires the buyer who bought the A15 “Earth to the Moon” cuff list. (No, I didn’t win it) It is a great item, from a great series, from the astronaut who served as an adviser to the series. I’ll never own a real cuff list… and this item is as a close to owning the real thing as any of us ever will get. You go!

The bidding on the first A12 flag was something else. If money was no problem, well... the buyer got a really nice item, and I’m happy for him. I know for fact the winner of the second flag is happy.

I thought the Neil Armstrong check was a unique item. 6K is a lot to pay for an autograph, for sure, but I thought this would go even higher, maybe much higher. Has anyone ever seen, or even heard of, an Armstrong check? Wouldn’t that make this a one-of-kind, Apollo 11, Neil Armstrong, item? I’ve read of this sale being compared to the fact that it sold for more than the A11 flags… but how many of these have ever been up for sale? By contrast has anyone ever seen a space sale without flown A11 flags? And, on top of that it was signed on the day of the launch. That just boggles my mind. How could Neil Armstrong get up at 5:00am and have the mindset to cut a check on the morning he was heading for the first landing on the Moon?

Noah

Robert Pearlman
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posted 10-03-2004 10:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spaced out:
Apollo 12 XL flown US flags: #393 went for a staggering $35250 whilst the almost identical #397 for just $3819! I know the first one came with a nice letter but still both prices seem extreme (in different directions).

A possible, important distinction between the two flags: Lot 393 may have been carried to the surface of the Moon while 397 stayed in lunar orbit. The description for 393 cites both the CM and LM and that it went to the Ocean of Storms, while 397 only references the CM.

Also, and I may be thinking of another flag, I seem to remember that at least one flag, other than the one deployed on the Moon, was unpacked and unfurled on the surface by the Apollo 12 moonwalkers - could this be that flag? I do know that it was given by the crew, post-flight, to a NASA team member and that it was for a while on display at the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia.

mensax
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posted 10-03-2004 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mensax   Click Here to Email mensax     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A valid comment Robert.

A surface carried flag is worth more than an orbit flag, but I believe your wording "may have been carried to the surface of the Moon" is a point of concern.

There is nothing in the letter that I have seen that indicates it was carried to the surface. There is no authentication from anyone whatsoever to claim that it was carried to the surface other than the "plaque" that is attached to the presentation, which appears to be a piece of paper that is pealing off of the matting. That's just not enough evidence to convince me 100% that it was surface carried, or to spend an additional $26,500.

If this flag was the flag that the astros unfurled on the Moon... Wow! Now wouldn't that be something! I'd say the buyer got a great deal on a real treasure, but it would seem to me that the flag you are describing would be the same size and type as the one that they the set up on the Moon. Wouldn't that have been considerably larger than these two flags?

And, wouldn't this information have been researched and included in it's desription?

My recommendation to the buyer of this first flag is to get it quickly to Alan Bean for addition information and authentication... and let us know the outcome!

Noah

[This message has been edited by mensax (edited October 03, 2004).]

spaceflori
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posted 10-03-2004 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:

Also, and I may be thinking of another flag, I seem to remember that at least one flag, other than the one deployed on the Moon, was unpacked and unfurled on the surface by the Apollo 12 moonwalkers - could this be that flag? I do know that it was given by the crew, post-flight, to a NASA team member and that it was for a while on display at the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia.

I was already thinking what we all miss with that A12 flag - but that may explain it !!!

Florian

Robert Pearlman
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posted 10-03-2004 11:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mensax:
A surface carried flag is worth more than an orbit flag, but I believe your wording "may have been carried to the surface of the Moon" is a point of concern.

I agree with you Noah. I couldn't write that 393 "was flown to the surface of the Moon" because the documentation (as described) doesn't support that statement clearly (nor does Aurora make that assertion). My raising the possibility - based on reading between the auction description lines - was to suggest a possible explanation as to why the bidding was as spirited as it was.

A year or so ago, I spoke with the owner of the lunar surface-unfurled flag that was (at the time) on its way to the Franklin Institute. Its possible that the flag is still there and this lot has no relation.

The bidders on 393 had reasons for bidding as they did. They could be personal reasons, in which case, we may never know why this flag was worth so much to them (as an example, a bidder could have been related to Hal Collins). If however, the driving force was further historical information about this particular flag it would be great if those "in the know" would share what they have learned.

spaced out
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posted 10-03-2004 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some good points raised above.

I must admit I'd missed the reference in Carrying the Fire to the elephants in the bean. If that's true then it's a unique item and the price is really quite reasonable. Had this been clear in the item description (especially with a reference to the book) my guess is the item would have fetched far more.

As for the AS-12 flag, I would definitely get in touch with Al to clarify the status before bidding such an enormous sum on that particular flag. Perhaps some comment was made in the auction hall before the bidding opened that would explain the interest?

As has been pointed out the overall prices seemed low, continuing the trend of the last few auctions. Some people picked up real bargains here - the AS11 Collins signed flag, second AS12 flag, the PLSS cable etc.

My impression is that the flown item market has been a bit saturated in recent years. Collectors of these items have either found what they want in recent years or used up most of their funds on the mass of items that have been available.

For prices to really pick up you'd need to either have an influx of new collectors (a major new film ot TV series might help) or a significantly reduced supply of flown items, which seems unlikely.

Matt T
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posted 10-03-2004 02:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I thought the prices for the Apollo suit hardware were surprising, particularly the metalwork - the helmet feedport going for over $2.5K was astonishing. By contrast the A6L beta-cloth suits and the A6L boot attracted curiously low bids.

If my bidder approval had come through in time I think I'd have taken a punt at that boot. Congratulations to the winner.

Cheers,
Matt

------------------

www.spaceracemuseum.com

Richard
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posted 10-03-2004 02:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard   Click Here to Email Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I went to the auction and was amazed that aurora let the autopen items continue in the auction. The ONLY bids on these items were from the internet. Many people in attendance were shaking their heads and some were outright disgusted. In fact, I believe the auctioneer (is that a real term?) made the comment "forget the real items, people seem to want the reproductions more!" The comment was made that aurora is good about returns, however, I wonder if they will inform the internet buyers of the reality of their purchase.

I believe that the market is getting saturated in regards to small flown flags, and the prices of the A11 flags seem to point to this. Face it, we are a very small community and the smaller flags are becoming incredibly common. I bet the buyers of the 30K small flags are now kicking themselves.

spaceman
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posted 10-03-2004 03:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceman   Click Here to Email spaceman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Guys,
No wonder they made the Saturn V so large what with the flown flags, patches,medallions, covers etc its amazing that the astronauts managed to squeeze in there too (tongue firmly in cheek),
Nick.

spaceman
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posted 10-03-2004 03:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceman   Click Here to Email spaceman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We have now seen a flown comb, spoon, 50 elephants etc...what is the most unusual item flown to the moon (or lunar orbit) that anyone has heard of??
Nick.

spaceflori
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posted 10-03-2004 04:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Richard:
I went to the auction and was amazed that aurora let the autopen items continue in the auction. The ONLY bids on these items were from the internet.

I was already suggesting in a private email to Robert Pearlman that ebay should (I know they care a **** about it anyway) send an email with the lastminute updates to any registered bidder shortly before the auction, that way nobody could complain afterwards.

Florian

gliderpilotuk
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posted 10-03-2004 06:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But eBay are just the agent/facilitator in this transaction. It is Aurora's responsibility to represent, not misrepresent, the sale items to potential buyers.
Even if this was an "oversight" on their behalf they should be reading cS and contacting buyers of these a/p's right now (yeah, right )

Paul

nojnj
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posted 10-03-2004 06:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nojnj   Click Here to Email nojnj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Did I see correctly? Lot#1239 a 6x8" photo of cosmonaut Levchenko went for $850? It was the only bid for the item. Did I see my Levchenko go up in value?

------------------
Evan

chet
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posted 10-03-2004 07:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think the #1 bargain at the Aurora auction was for lot #444, the Apollo 14 flown U.S. flag that went for a scant $1900! (before commission and sales tax).

Is that some kind of record low for a flown to the moon flag? (And what the hell was I thinking by not jumping in the bidding)?

fabfivefreddy
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posted 10-03-2004 10:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fabfivefreddy   Click Here to Email fabfivefreddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I do not want to make generalizations from just one auction, but...
It almost seems from the prices realized that some items are more common than previously thought. That may account for lower prices for some flown items. I think collectors have figured out what is truly rare and one-of-a-kind versus thinking "I can wait for that one again". Maybe the flown stuff is falling in the latter category to some extent. Any thoughts?
-Tahir

chet
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posted 10-03-2004 11:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chet   Click Here to Email chet     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think Tahir is right to a degree, and that was probably what caused my own trepidation in bidding for any flags.
But if this is true, why do the Robbins medallions seem to hold their value somewhat "better" than flags - - there are certainly more medallions out there than flags, no?

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posted 10-04-2004 05:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for madelman2010   Click Here to Email madelman2010     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi,

This is the crazy guy who bouhgt the replica check-list

here are my 3 reasons why I paid so much.

1) Global Effects sells them for 1,500 USD. But if they decide to make it. With luck you can get one in 4 months or more...

2) This is a real prop with history in a very unqiue TV series

3) I do not know where I can get a replica with the high quality that Chris at Global-offers. He is the best.

If any one knows where I can get a replica check-list cheaper and with this quality, I would love to know, I still need Apollo 16 and 17.

So here are my reasons. I would appreciatte if you can let me know what you think!!!

And please, be honest... I do not mind to hear that I am crazy if I realy am, ok?

Cheers to all

Jordi

Richard
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posted 10-04-2004 05:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard   Click Here to Email Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is strange that he was selling them for 1500. At the recent autograph show, he was offering them for much less. I guess he raised the price. I just don't see much significance in them. They are just a movie prop.

In regards to the Robbins vs. flags, I have never been really interested in the Robbins medallions. However, at least with the medallions, you have a known number available. That is not true with the flags.

gliderpilotuk
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posted 10-04-2004 05:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gliderpilotuk   Click Here to Email gliderpilotuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by chet:
I think the #1 bargain at the Aurora auction was for lot #444, the Apollo 14 flown U.S. flag that went for a scant $1900! (before commission and sales tax).

I was bidding on this and got the jitters at $1800!! After commission it will be $2280 which sounds less attractive and, of course, it likely did not go to the surface.
I have seen one of these go for $1500 pre-commission on another auction site.
Instead I went for #445B, the Ap14 flown to the surface microfilm at $600. This has nice provenance and is quite a chunky piece for display. It will go nicely with my flown to the moon Apollo 8 battery plate in lucite.
Would have liked the Ap11 flown plug, but not at $1800. What about the flown water from Ap11 at $6000?! That MUST be rancid

Paul Bramley

spaced out
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posted 10-04-2004 06:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jordi - don't take the madness comments personally. To the general public all of us space collectors are probably certifiable. Anyone that spends hundreds or even thousands of dollars for someone's signature on a photo has to be a bit 'special'.

The prop you bought is unique, in that it was the only one used in the making of that great series, so in the end it's worth whatever you are willing to pay for it. Also, for it to have reached $2100 you at least know there must be at least one other person who thinks it's worth $2000.

madelman2010
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posted 10-04-2004 02:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for madelman2010   Click Here to Email madelman2010     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Richard,

How much was Global asking for the check-lists?

I am really interested in knowing how much?

Do you know how many he was selling?

Thanks to all.

By the way, I know in many senses we are all crazy, so I do not feel offended.

Thanks to all. Honestly

Jordi

Rizz
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posted 10-04-2004 02:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rizz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome aboard Jordi-

Congrats on a fine winning at the auction!

Those Cuff Checklists are very cool.

I was surprised at the final price only because I bought an Apollo 12 Cuff Checklist from Global a number of years ago, and got it for under $500.

It is a superb replica based on the laughs and comments made by Alan Bean when he looked through it! He even signed the back of it.

It took months to make, and when I recieved it, I had to send it back because it had tons of typo's.

Many words were incorrectly spelled, and a few of the pages were actually from another Cuff Checklist that obviously didn't belong.

My guess is that it was so labor intensive to re create, that the price went up considerably.

And after this weekends results from the auction, I bet Global just increased their price on any more Cuff Checklists.

Although they are not as rare as the flown ones, they are in fact very uncommon.

You've got a great replicated artifact of the Apollo Program. Now, if you can get it signed.....

The original one was used and probably covered with dust anyway.


Aloha -

Rizz

[This message has been edited by Rizz (edited October 04, 2004).]

spaceuk
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posted 10-04-2004 02:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceuk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Aurora Result

464A Apollo 15 Lunar Surface Checklist $155000

Is this correct - it went for this ?

Or is it a typo on results ?

Robert Pearlman
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posted 10-04-2004 03:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spaceuk:
Is this correct - it went for this ?

This was the last bid recorded before the lot closed, so in that sense it is not a typo or error. It either sold for this amount, was reacquired by the consignor, or failed to meet its reserve.

nas9-1100
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posted 11-22-2004 07:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nas9-1100     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The opening bid sat there for what seemed like forever at $1...I hit the bid button twice and within a second after that, the bid would have been about $25,000. I will never do that again...

All times are CT (US)

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