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  ISS 16: End of expedition and landing (Page 2)

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Author Topic:   ISS 16: End of expedition and landing
Jay Chladek
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From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007

posted 04-22-2008 07:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jay Chladek   Click Here to Email Jay Chladek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The one thing I find interesting is that the edge of the brush fire burn area is next to the front of the spacecraft rather then behind it. Given that the wind blew the fire away from the capsule, it looks to me like maybe the fire was started by something smoldering on the front of the craft after it landed as opposed to it being caused by the heatshield, which would have dropped off behind the craft and presumeably landed up wind of the descent module. Of course the retro rockets might have caused the fire as well as it sounds like they operated normally on landing.

As for the painting of Soyuz 5, I don't think I would have used the term "proper configuration" to describe it Robert.

Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
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posted 04-22-2008 10:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Peggy Whitson was interviewed just after her landing on April 19 by NASA public affairs officer Rob Navias. The audio of that discussion [2.76mb mp3] was released to reporters on Tuesday.

While replying to a question about the nature of her and her crew mates return to Earth, Whitson touched very briefly on what is now believed to have been problems during the separation of the Soyuz TMA-11's descent and propulsion modules.

Immediately, or shortly after разделение [razdyelyeniye], we switched automatically to the ballistic mode, which means we were going to be spinning up to 8 Gs and coming in an on steeper descent. And I saw 8.2 Gs on the meter. It was a pretty, pretty dramatic. Gravity is not really my friend right now and 8 Gs was especially not my friend! But it didn't last too long. You know chute deploy was nominal and impact, I guess maybe because I heard so many stories, wasn't quite as bad as I was expecting. But разделение was a little more dramatic than I was expecting. разделение is the separation of the modules.

E2M Lem Man
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From: Los Angeles CA. USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted 04-22-2008 11:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for E2M Lem Man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
"I don't see this as a major problem," he commented, "but it is clearly something that should not have occurred."
NOT A MAJOR PROBLEM? This is our ONLY ride to ISS after the Shuttles retirement and we are only NOW discovering that it happened on the last Soyuz also?

Why wasn't this brought up before now... and not even to the representatives in DC?

I feel like De Nero in "Scent of a Woman" in the courtroom! This smells like a cover up, and I am usually not that sensitive to these things.

NASA has to answer for this, and the Russians too! Why are we letting them get away with this- see above... this is our only ride and NASA doesn't want to upset the applecart!

J.M. Busby

Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
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posted 04-23-2008 12:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Less than a week has passed since Soyuz TMA-11 landed. It is not even back in Russia where its systems can be studied. Gerst was simply putting the situation into the context of the program as a whole. There is nothing yet to suggest that this problem won't be fixed before the next Soyuz is scheduled to return to Earth.

As far as TMA-10, the initial indications were that the separation issue and the ballistic mode trigger were separate. Now that it has occurred a second time, the Russians will reexamine that conclusion, although they may still find that they are unrelated.

This isn't a political issue, it's a technical one, and the engineers deserve the time to address it accordingly.

cspg
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Posts: 4046
From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006

posted 04-23-2008 12:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cspg   Click Here to Email cspg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
The scale of the grass fire was at first deceiving given the aerial imagery.
The grass fire apparently had nothing to do with the Soyuz landing, per NASA public affairs (via NASA Watch):
quote:
For clarification, the Soyuz capsule landed near an area where Kazak farmers were burning grass off the steppes. The fire was not related to the Soyuz landing.
Chris.

Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
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posted 04-23-2008 09:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
The fire was not related to the Soyuz landing.
It seems rather coincidental that of all the places the Soyuz should come to rest, it would be at the edge of a fire that is not related to their landing. So close in fact, that it would ignite their parachute...

For what it is worth, Sheikh Muszaphar reported on his TMA-10 blog that the grass around the capsule began burning quite heavily after touchdown, as captured in this photograph from his website:

Jay Chladek
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Posts: 2211
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007

posted 04-24-2008 02:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jay Chladek   Click Here to Email Jay Chladek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
It seems rather coincidental that of all the places the Soyuz should come to rest, it would be at the edge of a fire that is not related to their landing. So close in fact, that it would ignite their parachute...
Yeah, I also thought that was an interesting coincidence as well. Plus how the edge of the burn pattern seems to correspond almost exactly to where the front of the Soyuz ended up in both shots makes me wonder if somebody in Russia isn't "blowing smoke"?

MCroft04
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From: Smithfield, Me, USA
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posted 04-24-2008 06:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MCroft04   Click Here to Email MCroft04     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looking at the picture of the Soyuz lying on the plains reminded me of a commment that Bill MCarthur made at JSC several years ago. This is a separate issue from the one being discussed here, but it makes one wonder about the safety of the program.

The landing in Kazakhstan was extremely hard. The soft landing rockets seemed to have fired about the time of impact. In fact Bill later showed a slide of burnt grass just beneath the soft landing rockets, plus there was a pretty big hole in the ground suggesting a hard impact. Later Robert Pearlman said that Greg Olsen also complained about the hard landing.

Tonyq
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Posts: 150
From: UK
Registered: Jul 2004

posted 04-24-2008 07:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tonyq   Click Here to Email Tonyq     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Anousheh Ansari told me much the same thing. She had a stinging pain in her back on impact, which was relieved as the capsule rolled onto it's side and her back separated from the seat.

I guess this 'thump down' goes with the territory, as so no-one seems to have suffered any lasting damage.

However it does seem that the Russians don't condition people too well and many are caught out by it.

eurospace
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From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 04-24-2008 07:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for eurospace   Click Here to Email eurospace     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by E2M Lem Man:
I feel like De Nero in "Scent of a Woman" in the courtroom!
So, if it was "Scent of a Woman", then it was Al Pacino, and if it would have been De Nero, then it would actually have been De Niro (with an i).

It smells, but I don't know what about - a burnt movie?

------------------
Jürgen P Esders
Berlin, Germany

International Director (Europe), Space Unit
Vice President, Weltraum Philatelie e. V.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Astroaddies

cspg
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From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006

posted 04-24-2008 10:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cspg   Click Here to Email cspg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MCroft04:
(...) Greg Olsen also complained about the hard landing.

Poor darlings...

He's asking for a refund?

Chris.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 27328
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 04-24-2008 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
St. Petersburg Times: Soyuz Reports Anger Russian Space Agency
quote:
The Federal Space Agency on Wednesday denied media reports that the lives of a crew returning from the international space station were in danger during their unusually rough ride in a Soyuz capsule on the weekend.

"This is nothing but a smear campaign," agency spokesman Alexander Vorobyov said.

...

The space agency's Vorobyov confirmed there had been problems, saying the Soyuz hatch and the antenna suffered partial burn damage but that this was a common occurrence when capsules re-enter the Earth’s atmosphere.

Vorobyov insisted that the capsule could not have entered the atmosphere backward, as the hatch side is lighter than the side where heat shields are located. "The laws of physics would have made it impossible" for the capsule to descend in that position.

The Federal Space Agency spokesman described as "incompetent" the sources for the story that the crew was threatened and accused of them of trying to tarnish the image of Soyuz capsules as reliable craft to discourage NASA from buying them.


E2M Lem Man
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From: Los Angeles CA. USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted 04-25-2008 05:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for E2M Lem Man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by eurospace:
So, if it was "Scent of a Woman", then it was Al Pacino, and if it would have been De Nero, then it would actually have been De Niro (with an i).
Mr. Esders, I am corrected sir,

J.M. Busby

Lou Chinal
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From: Staten Island, NY
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posted 04-25-2008 05:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou Chinal   Click Here to Email Lou Chinal     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Doesn't this go right back to Vostok 1. Yuri Gagarin had the same problem when his retro module failed to seperate according to plan.

The burn thru on the early shuttle flights, of the SRB's was a warning sign.

I see a lot of red flags waving.

-Lou

Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 05-24-2008 05:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
RIA Novosti: Pyrobolt failure caused Soyuz bumpy re-entry - Roscosmos
quote:
A failure of a pyrobolt separating spacecraft's modules caused the ballistic landing of Russia's Soyuz TMA-11 capsule in April this year, the head of the Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) said on Saturday.

On April 19, the Soyuz-TMA-11 capsule, carrying U.S. astronaut Peggy Whitson, Russian flight engineer Yuri Malenchenko, and Korean bioengineer Yi So-yeon from the International Space Station, made a bumpy re-entry, landing 420 km (260 miles) off-target in the steppes of northern Kazakhstan.

"The main cause has been established," Anatoly Perminov said. "One of the five separating pyrobolts failed and the separation [of the landing capsule from the equipment bay] occurred later, when the landing capsule entered the plasma."


Of concern is that one or more of the pyrobolts installed on Soyuz TMA-12, currently docked to the International Space Station, may also be faulty and fail, causing another ballistic reentry.


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