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Author
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Topic: Simultaneous STS missions possible?
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edmk5000
Member Posts: 49
From: Homestead, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 04-01-2005 02:38 AM
   
Other than for the current contingency missions, have simultaneous shuttle missions ever been considered or possible?Are there open resources with the Mission Control Center, TDRS, telemetry, communications, tracking, etc. to handle two shuttles at the same time assuming both vehicles were otherwise ready? For example, is there a second MCC somewhere that could handle the second shuttle or is there "space" to monitor multiple vehicles at a single MCC? What purpose or benefit (if any) could there be for a two-vehicle mission? I am not really asking about the current contingency missions which would have the sick shuttle docked (presumably in some kind of sleep-mode) or deorbited while the rescue shuttle would be using MCC resources. Hope this isn't considered too silly of a question. Ed.
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KSCartist
Member Posts: 2896
From: Titusville, FL USA
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 04-01-2005 06:44 AM
Not a silly question at all.There is (or was) a second MCC. One is used for shuttle missions and the other is used for ISS missions. Physically the assets are in place for dual missions. 2 MCC,2 LCC, 2 launch pads. But unlike Gemini when Atlas/Agena vehicles were launched just prior to Gemini/Titans. There hasn't been to my knowledge a need or plan to have concurrent shuttle missions. (It would be cool though!)
Tim |
Astro Bill
Member Posts: 1329
From: New York, NY
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 04-01-2005 05:41 PM
From what I have been told, it is IMPOSSIBLE at this time to have TWO Space Shuttle missions operational at the same time. I learned this from a "debate" with a NASA official in the Astrophile of the Space Unit. I had suggested that a shuttle could have been prepared and launched in time for a rescue of Columbia. The NASA official, in no uncertain words, said that every Shuttle mission required the efforts of every NASA department and required months of preparation and training for the crew to do a certain mission. Having two Shuttles in space and tracking them and preparing for their landings, would require a double effort by many NASA employees. It is IMPOSSIBLE. I came to the conclusion that he was right because it made sense. This does not mean that two Shuttles could not be launched simultaneously well in the future to the ISS . But the focus of NASA seems to be changing to the Moon and to a replacement for the Shuttle. [] |
OV-105
Member Posts: 816
From: Ridgecrest, CA
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 04-01-2005 06:18 PM
There was a chance in 1986 that ther could have been two shuttles in space at the same time. When STS 61-F (Ulysses) and STS 61-G (Galileo) they had a short launch window that they could have been in orbit at the same time 61-F was for May 15,1986 launch with 61-G on May 21, 1986. There was also a chance of it again with the first flight from Vandenberg there could have been two flights up in July of 1986 also. I do not think NASA would want to have two up at once if it could be done. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3445
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 04-02-2005 12:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by OV-105:
There was a chance in 1986 that ther could have been two shuttles in space at the same time. When STS 61-F (Ulysses) and STS 61-G (Galileo) they had a short launch window that they could have been in orbit at the same time 61-F was for May 15,1986 launch with 61-G on May 21, 1986.
From Martin Marietta's launch schedule booklets, 61F and 61G were only for 2 days each, no overlap. If 61F had been delayed, 61G most likely would have been launched as scheduled (assuming the delay was non-hardware related) and 61F resked for the next opportunity. The closest I can find to an overlap is from MM's 28 March 1985 sked, where Mission 71I was sked for a 09 Apr 87 landing (after a 7-day mission) and 71J was sked for a launch the same day. There was also a 71P DoD launch of unspecified duration launching on 15 Sept 87 and 71Q launching just six days later. Of course, like a polar launch from KSC, all NASA (or more likely, the federal government) has to do is claim national security, and they'd get two shuttles up at the same time.
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Philip
Member Posts: 5952
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 04-02-2005 10:59 AM
I remember photos of two space shuttle orbiter being in transfer to/from the launchpad, as a matter of fact I even have a NASA transparency of it showing 2 orbiters on 2 crawlers ! |
capejeffs
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posted 04-02-2005 02:16 PM
Hope this discussion is with knowledge of the new emergency 2nd shuttle policy, and that they're pushing to have Atlantis ready while Discovery flies. Rescue crew led by Steven Lindsey ( includes Piers Sellers, forgot about him, British-American like Michael Foale).I haven't been following the "back-up" mission, how the planning, training, and preparation is going for it, but they won't launch Discovery unless Atlantis can be ready to launch within 4 weeks. Maybe this article will tell how its going to this point! It has this quote from Lindsey: "It's a place where we don't want to go. We're training for a mission we never want to fly"
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/space/3093886 |
edmk5000
Member Posts: 49
From: Homestead, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 04-02-2005 03:42 PM
Here's a site with a b/w photo from 1990 showing Columbia on 39-A and Discovery on 39-B.
http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blnasa3.htm Ed. |
OV-105
Member Posts: 816
From: Ridgecrest, CA
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 04-02-2005 07:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
I remember photos of two space shuttle orbiter being in transfer to/from the launchpad, as a matter of fact I even have a NASA transparency of it showing 2 orbiters on 2 crawlers !
I think that happened in 1990 when they had the hydrogen leak in Atlantis and Columbia. They didn't have one of the pads to use so they were swaping the the flights, I think it was STS-38, Atlantis for STS-35, Astro-1,Columbia. There have been two shuttles on the pads at the same time for a while. I think one of the best things that happened is when STS 51-D, Discovery was on orbit they moved Challenger out to Pad 39A for STS-51B, Spacelab-3 and during there TCT it was the first time they had shuttle crews talk to each other on the air-2-air loop. Ok I just showed my age with some Cliff Claven triva! LOL |
Ben
Member Posts: 1896
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: May 2000
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posted 04-02-2005 09:24 PM
We were talking about that particular sight (the 35/38 switch) the other day at rollover. It prodouced this well known and rather beautiful photo:
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/mirrors/images/images/pao/STS35/10063907.jpg ------------------
-Ben www.launchphotography.com |
spacecanada
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posted 04-03-2005 12:25 PM
Does anyone by any chance have a jpg link for the photo of the two shuttles on the pad?Thanks,
Andrew. |
edmk5000
Member Posts: 49
From: Homestead, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 04-03-2005 02:30 PM
At the JSC Digital Image Archive http://images.jsc.nasa.gov I ran a search for "two shuttles" and came up with two images S90-48904 and S90-48650. 
Description:
Rare view shows two space shuttles on adjacent Kennedy Space Center (KSC) Launch Complex (LC) 39 pads with the Rotating Service Structures (RSS) retracted. STS-35 Columbia, Orbiter Vehicle (OV) 102, is on Pad A (foreground) is being readied for a September 6 early morning launch, while its sister spaceship, Discovery, OV-103, is set to begin preparations for an October liftoff on Mission STS-41. View provided by KSC with alternate number KSC-90PC-1269. Also see S90-48650 for similar view with alternate KSC number KSC-90PC-1268. 
Description:
Rare view shows two space shuttles on adjacent Kennedy Space Center (KSC) Launch Complex (LC) 39 pads with the Rotating Service Structures (RSS) retracted. STS-35 Columbia, Orbiter Vehicle (OV) 102, is on Pad A (foreground) and being readied for a September 6 early morning launch, while its sister spaceship, Discovery, OV-103, is prepared for an October liftoff on Mission STS-41. View provided by KSC with alternate number KSC-90PC-1268. Also see S90-48904 for a similar view with alternate KSC number KSC-90PC-1269. Ed. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1597
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-03-2005 03:35 PM
I found the following interesting NASA photo of 2 shuutles on the pad at the same time...well one was just leaving... http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/SMALL/GPN-2000-000684.jpg |
Ben
Member Posts: 1896
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: May 2000
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posted 04-03-2005 06:58 PM
The most recent time was STS-104 in 2001; Discovery STS-105 was on pad A while Atlantis was on B:
http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/images/medium/01padig243-m.jpg
http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/images/medium/01pp1247-m.jpg
http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/track-m.cfm?mediaid=8014
http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/images/medium/01padig238-m.jpg ------------------
-Ben www.launchphotography.com |
Astro Bill
Member Posts: 1329
From: New York, NY
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 04-03-2005 10:30 PM
I thought that the discussion was simultaneous shuttle launches, not two shuttles sitting on their launch pads simultaneously for some reason. Wasn't one of the reasons for the STS-51L and STS-107 disasters that NASA wanted to keep to their schedule and have as many launches in the year as possible? [] |
OV-105
Member Posts: 816
From: Ridgecrest, CA
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 04-04-2005 06:31 PM
With STS 51-L you are right on the push for flights. I do not see that with STS-107. There were some of the same bad calls made, nothing bad has happened so it must be ok to fly, or the right people not getting the info that something bad might happen. It's kind of funny I always thought that the nose and wing edge were always the strongest area because of the amount of heat that the had to deal with. After reading some of what the shuttle astronuats have said they thought the same thing. Well we alll know it is not now. I think bring up having two shuttle on the pad at the same time shows that NASA could support two flights at once if they had too. I think that they have showed that with flights STS-109, the last flight to Hubble, and STS-107 while the ISS has a crew on orbit shows that it could be done. |
pokey
Member Posts: 361
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 04-05-2005 11:36 AM
Two simultaneous shuttle missions was being worked by NASA in mid 80's. Was called Multi-Mission Program or something like that. My cubicle mate was working with on the shuttle simulator along with MCC people on their end on this project. Remember the alphabet. I think we were up to at least 51-M, which would have been 13th shuttle mission for KSC on 5th year of program. Plus the anticipated Vandenberg launches. Each shuttle to this day has unique uplink ID's, such that a MCC command to Endeavour would not be accepted by Discovery if they were both in orbit. I spoke with a Gemini guy a few years ago and they had a lot of unknowns on communicating with 2 vehicles at the same time. He said they didn't really know if their planning would work until the actual flights occurred. They were VERY happy when they saw things were working as planned. |
sfurtaw
Member Posts: 104
From: Saginaw, MI USA
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 04-06-2005 09:02 AM
This discussion has reminded me of my August 1985 visit to KSC. The tour bus driver told us that NASA had plans on flying two simultaneous shuttle missions in 1988.------------------
Scott Furtaw
In Memoriam: The Astronaut/Cosmonaut Memorial Web Site
www.astronautmemorial.net |
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