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Author
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Topic: Antiques Roadshow: NAA Apollo CSM artifacts
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SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-05-2017 07:42 PM
   
The Feb. 20, 2017 episode of Antiques Roadshow (Palm Springs) is expected to include the collection of a retired North American Rockwell employee who as a quality control engineer on the Apollo command and service module had extensive relationships with the spacecraft and astronauts who flew them. His collection includes the Columbia main hatch RESCUE Decal and the main assembly parts decal tag removed post flight from that vehicle. |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4167
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 02-06-2017 01:02 PM
Wow. Sounds like an episode not to be missed, though it would appear living in the UK will preclude me from watching it online. If anybody has the means to link it here as and when that would be appreciated. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-06-2017 07:35 PM
Aforementioned items. Arrow authenticates to flown decal on Columbia (high confidence). |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4167
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 02-07-2017 02:14 PM
Anybody care to offer a valuation? |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-07-2017 02:52 PM
I've already advised the owner its at or close to the 6 figure range. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-07-2017 03:01 PM
How did these decals become private property? |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-07-2017 03:06 PM
Via the identical process that liberated much of the CM 107 mylar on the commercial market. Can of worms. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-07-2017 03:12 PM
The difference, of course, is that the scraps of Kapton cannot be positively traced back to their vehicle, whereas this can. It will be interesting to see the Smithsonian's response, if they do respond, especially as they are working now to conserve Columbia. |
bwhite1976
Member Posts: 281
From: Belleville, IL
Registered: Jun 2011
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posted 02-07-2017 04:23 PM
Well the Apollo 11 hatch definitely does not have that sticker. That is an amazing item. |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4167
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 02-07-2017 05:27 PM
Rightly or wrongly was the Rescue decal considered fair game, like the kapton pieces; superfluous? The decal and Kapton alike were likely expendable but would a quality control manager be involved in decommissioning Columbia? An identical Rescue decal from Apollo 13 was sold on eBay about 15 years ago and is currently in private ownership here in the UK: I'd be interested to know whether the two decals originated from the same individual. |
Mike Dixon
Member Posts: 1397
From: Kew, Victoria, Australia
Registered: May 2003
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posted 02-07-2017 05:35 PM
Does not sit well with me. I have a tiny scrap of mylar from Apollo 15 (and that was a fantastic gift from a current cS member). This is entirely different in my opinion. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-07-2017 05:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rick Mulheirn:
The decal and Kapton alike were likely expendable...
The majority of the Kapton that was removed and kept as a souvenir was not authorized and NASA tried to put a halt to the activity. It ceased being considered expendable at the point of splashdown.That said, scraps of Kapton and an intact decal, let alone a parts assembly tag, are artifacts of different natures. |
mmmoo
Member Posts: 551
From: London, England
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-07-2017 05:36 PM
Here is a shot of the hatch before the decal was removed. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-08-2017 06:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Rick Mulheirn:
The decal and Kapton alike were likely expendable
From the perspective of NAR Downey staffers who removed Columbia's outer coating they were. The motivation was not souvenir hunting but to "clean up" the spacecraft (externally and internally) for public display. The rescue decal was only preserved because the current owner requested that the time be taken to remove without additional damage so he could retain, otherwise it would likely have been destroyed. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-08-2017 07:23 AM
I've posted this before, so please excuse the repetition, but this was the memo written by Jim McDivitt, as Apollo spacecraft manager, in October 1969: There have been several occasions in which unauthorized removal of equipment or parts of spacecraft has been experienced. These removals have included stripping of small pieces of the kapton thermal coating and removal of the command module nameplates. These removals have occurred during the recovery and return to North American and during postflight testing.I would like to point out to all personnel concerned that this unauthorized removal of equipment, no matter how small it may seem, constitutes a violation of our responsibility. The memo alone is not enough to say that the NAA workers were made aware of NASA's intentions at the time, or even that conflicting orders were not issued. It does however, establish that the agency was aware of the removals and did not approve of them. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-08-2017 10:23 AM
Memo codified a position that would have been too late for Columbia. But just how many CMs returning from flight after issuance of Mcdivitt's edict were preserved in original state with intact kapton (and the Rescue decal)? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-08-2017 11:23 AM
By the wording of the memo, it wasn't written to establish new policy. Rather, it was reinforcing existing expectations for all workers. Given its date, perhaps it was written in response to the unauthorized removal of material from Columbia. Ultimately, McDivitt's directive seems to have been largely ignored. That doesn't mean the activity was deemed acceptable. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3207
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-08-2017 11:26 AM
Some of the command modules are on display with the hatches installed. The Apollo 8 CM hatch has an "ESCUE" partial decal. The Skylab 2 CM hatch has a "RESCUE" decal. I thought the CM-107 ID tag was still in Columbia. Compare the tag in the first photo with the CM-107 ID tag photos that were posted on this Apollo 11 CM thread back on 08-21-2016. Were there two tags? |
space1
Member Posts: 853
From: Danville, Ohio
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 02-08-2017 04:59 PM
I wonder if separate "presentation" ID tags were flown on each mission. Weren't the astronauts presented with plaques bearing ID tags? I believe we have seen some of these plaques at auctions, with either the CM or LM tags. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-08-2017 06:45 PM
Owner asserts tag was removed from its installed location, not a presentation tag (he was present during removal). |
space1
Member Posts: 853
From: Danville, Ohio
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 02-08-2017 08:43 PM
Does the owner have an answer to LM-12's question? (Was there more than one tag? Where was this tag originally mounted, since photos today show the official ID tag installed in Columbia?) |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-08-2017 08:46 PM
At least one of the tags currently in Columbia is not original. I can show that to be the case and can correlate the tag in private ownership as the original. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3207
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-08-2017 09:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by space1:
Weren't the astronauts presented with plaques bearing ID tags?
The command module ID plate location I am aware of is near window 4.The CM ID plate presentations that I have seen are brass and do not look at all like the CM ID tag in Columbia. Here is a photo of Buzz Aldrin's CM ID plate presentation. The LM ID plate presentations that I have seen do look very much like the ID plates that were installed in the lunar module ascent stages. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3207
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-09-2017 09:43 AM
Is the s/n 107 CM ID tag in Columbia today an unflown tag?
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SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-09-2017 10:07 AM
At least one of them is definitely unflown (likely both - presuming there are two). |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3207
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-09-2017 10:28 AM
Yikes. If it turns out (and it sounds like it might) that the only flown s/n 107 CM ID tag is in private hands, then I am aghast. This is Apollo 11. The CM-107 ID tag that flew in Columbia should be in Columbia. |
thisismills
Member Posts: 262
From: Michigan
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 02-09-2017 08:43 PM
Amazing that there are still significant artifacts from Columbia the public doesn't even know exist. Looking forward to hearing more first hand account from the employee involved.Right or wrong, I suspect the majority of visitors to the Smithsonian (or any museum for that matter past and present) aren't affected and don't notice these types of details on artifacts unless they are pointed out specifically. Would be interesting to understand thoughts from the perspective of the museum and its mission. Is the fact that these decals are no longer installed on the spacecraft hindering the story telling aspect of the Apollo 11 mission and program overall and would a story of reuniting them with the CM be just as powerful after all these years? I can imagine many possible end results, including if the items are released from private hands for monetary reasons. In that case, I fear the cost to the museum for obtaining these items on the free market could out-weigh importance in the restoration and display. If nothing else, I'd at least be one person to suggest an appeal to the owner for enough time to plan a crowd-funded purchase and donation... |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-09-2017 09:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by thisismills:
Is the fact that these decals are no longer installed on the spacecraft hindering the story telling aspect of the Apollo 11 mission and program overall...
The hatch is presented separately with its inboard side facing the public, and at least in the CM's original display configuration, the duplicate tag really wasn't visible to the public through the narrow viewing aperture afforded by its plexiglas enclosure. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3207
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-09-2017 10:38 PM
The CM ID tag near window 4 can be seen in 16mm Magazine B at 1:27 into the footage. The tag appears to be in the same location and same orientation seen in the CM interior photos posted on the linked thread mentioned earlier. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-09-2017 10:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by thisismills:
...would a story of reuniting them with the CM be just as powerful after all these years?
The consideration need not be whether the decals would be visible to the public, or if they would enhance the overall appearance of the exhibit. Even if they were obtained by the Smithsonian, there is a valid curatorial position that would argue against restoring them to their original place on the spacecraft (in favor of curating them separately).Rather, the prevailing question may be whether the decals were legally transferred to private property. Clearly, the NAA employee didn't originally remove or retain the decals with designs to profit from them. As Scott states, the desire was their preservation. If that is the case, it would be interesting to learn if he is now opposed to providing them to the Smithsonian, assuming the institution desires them. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3207
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-11-2017 06:48 AM
Removing the decal and tag for preservation is one thing. Keeping the decal and tag for one's own private collection is something entirely different. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-11-2017 08:01 AM
Do you retain any historical artifacts in your collection (either Apollo, space or otherwise)? Independent of any potential issues pertaining to how the items came into the possession of the current owner, what criteria are you applying to make the preceding statement? |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3207
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-11-2017 08:28 AM
I do not have any flown items in my possession. Is the owner of the two items being discussed legally allowed to have them?
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thisismills
Member Posts: 262
From: Michigan
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 02-11-2017 08:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Clearly, the NAA employee didn't originally remove or retain the decals with designs to profit from them. As Scott states, the desire was their preservation. If that is the case, it would be interesting to learn if he is now opposed to providing them to the Smithsonian, assuming the institution desires them.
This is exactly what I was getting at with my question. I think it would make a cool story for the Smithsonian and the owner to reunite the decals as a curated exhibit highlighting preservation, alongside the Columbia. As stated before if transferred properly and acquired per the law, there is no issue with private individuals possessing these types of artifacts. I'd still love to see some of the "more significant items" (we each have our own standard here) accessible to the public even if they are on a temporary loan to an institution or part of an exhibit.
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SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-13-2017 08:52 PM
Just a quick update... the split Palm Spring episodes will air on the 20th and the 27th. Do not know which day will feature the segment — may have to watch both unless somebody has an inside scoop from PBS. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-21-2017 04:53 PM
Confirmation that it will be in the second hour. Learn more about fantastic Palm Springs finds including a 1966 Roy Lichtenstein screenprint, a NASA Apollo archive, ca. 1965, and a Tiffany Studios mosaic panel, ca. 1905. |
Wehaveliftoff
Member Posts: 2343
From:
Registered: Aug 2001
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posted 02-23-2017 12:54 AM
I hope he sells it to the highest bidder and makes a bundle off of it. Don't see anyone but an institution purchasing it either. |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4167
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 02-23-2017 03:51 AM
I wouldn't bet on only an institution buying the pieces. This forum includes several big hitters with pockets more than deep enough to purchase the items in question. Sadly... I am not one of them.  |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 02-23-2017 08:37 AM
...a NASA Apollo archive, ca. 1965 Question - if the item is supposed to be from Apollo 11, why is it listed as circa 1965? |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-23-2017 10:30 AM
There are quite a few memorabilia components (in addition to the previously described artifacts) in the presented collection, many of which highlight the owner's work on the program during the mid-60s. |
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