posted 08-09-2000 05:39 PM               

As I also have concentrated on the "43" it opened my eyes to to an area of collecting where this "man has not gone before".

q:-)

posted 08-09-2000 11:39 PM            

I agree though--great column. That is an idea, not to try to claim anything off his great column, but it is something I have tried to pass along to new collectors I talk to as well as some of the older more experienced collectors. You know, back in 1966 no one know that a Neil Armstong photo signed would be so valuable. No one know that in 1970 that a Dave Scott authentically signed photo would be a rare piece of memorabilia. And even with some shuttle astronauts, if you have a true autograph of Story Musgrave and he signed "story Musgrave" as opposed to "Story" it is more valuable because he stopped signing this way many years ago. YOu never know what will be valuable on down the road.

posted 08-10-2000 01:21 AM              

Enjoyed your article immensel, and agree the post-Apollo astronauts (with a few exceptions--those who were "firsts": first woman, first of any particular minority, first from a particular nation, etc.), have been largely ignored by a large number of collectors. Suits me, less other mail sharing their box with mine!!

One area even more overlooked than the Shuttle astros is the handful of men who flew aircraft to achieve astronaut status. I'm speaking of course, of the X-15 pilots who broke the space barrier, begining with Bob White, who actually beat Wally into space, becoming our 5th astronaut. Then of course there's the autograph collectors best friend, Bill Dana, "Pete" Knight, another great signer, the late Joe Walker, Joe Engle and a few others, mostly now, sadly, deceased. These men deserve an honored place in any collection of pioneer space explorers, but are often overlooked. This may work to the advantage of collectors just starting to explore ths area as even the signatures of those already deceased are usually available reasonibly priced. Most dealers consider them as test pilots, not pioneer astronauts, and price their signatures accordingly.

As a matter of fact, I am working now on an article for Autograph Times Magazine on the early rocket plane experimental test pilots (that's where a certain fellow named "Neil" got his start in ultra-high performance aircraft, by the way); just waiting to get permissions from one or two individuals before submitting it to my editor.

Nice article, thanks for sharing it.

Doc

posted 08-10-2000 10:19 AM               

Thanks for your nice words about my article. I'm flattered & appreciative! It was
an easy article to write, as it's something I've been thinking about for a good while. I
finally got around to writing it & Robert's
web site is an excellent location for it.

Hopefully, the article will give some
collectors some new ideas to broaden their
collecting interests & efforts - that was
the purpose of the article.

posted 08-10-2000 08:59 PM               

Still the topic filled a few column inches and I guess that was the commissioning motivation behind it anyway. Its about time this website had some articles about something new and interesting rather than an infinite number of variations of "isnt space stuff great, arent we all great guys".

Posted unanonymously ! (is there such a word?) so you can now rebuke me should you wish.

Joe

posted 08-10-2000 09:47 PM               

The pioneers, the "43," deserve and have well-received their time in the spotlight.

Today's astronauts and cosmonauts also risk their lives, also push boundaries (to a lesser extent, I will admit) and receive little or no attention. Even the "43" recognize this and frown. Gene Cernan and I had a great conversation about how it was about time to move the spotlight from his peers to the "nameless faces in their pumpkin suits."

To disregard the Space Shuttle, Soyuz, Mir and International Space Station is to disregard history. We are not far enough into the solar system to dismiss these flights as routine.

I collect them all, all who have ever been selected to fly, all that stepped forward for the challenge. My autographs from Story Musgrave, Byron Lichtenberg, Norm Thagard and Tracy Caldwell are as treasured as my Anders, Aldrin, and Cernan.

Each of us collect what we enjoy. If you only enjoy the "43" than that is what you collect. But one should at least admit that others can take joy in the "Other 350"

- Robert

posted 08-11-2000 04:45 AM              

I met a fellow who was responsible for the design of part of the Saturn V third stage engine. No glory, but a great guy, still totally into his design, without which...well who knows? My son was the first person to ever ask him for an autograph....

And I'll add:

I read somewhere that Alan Bean (I believe it was Alan Bean, not 100% sure) had said during an interview that in 100 years the few astronauts of this century who'll be remembered include Neil Armstrong, maybe Buzz Aldrin, and maybe Jim Lovell (because Apollo 13 was made into a movie).

It's a point worth considering, especially for someone thinking "one day my collection of every astronaut's signature is going to be worth big bucks." Who remembers the third or fourth or 175th person to fly an airplane? Nope, it's just Wilbur and Orville. Jump forward a bit and you'll get to Amelia or Lindy.

Personally I think all of the astronauts are heroes. Even today spaceflight is nowhere near routine. But collecting all of the autographs of people who have been into space? That is a labor of love, and more power to you! I'd suspect I'm like a lot of collectors, happy to have a few signatures, a few manuals, and a few books.

Heck, I can spread em all out and look at em all at once. And that Saturn V engineer's signature means as much to me as my (far more expensive) Buzz Aldrin.

So don't let a missing autograph from a "group" spoil your enjoyment of your own collection...lest that pleasure get forgotten in the pursuit of the next trophy, that one elusive signature.

Tying my meanderings back into the message thread, even the idea of collecting all of the "43" seems like an expensive, paranoid chore to me. Gee, did I buy a fake Armstrong? Is my Cernan an autopen?

I'd really love to have an autograph from Neil Armstrong, not because it's "valuable", but for what it symbolizes. His first step on the moon was the epicenter, "our step", of a nation's will, with the brains, guts, and funding to make it happen. A magic time in history.

What the shuttle astronauts are doing is tremendous for science and the future of space exploration. Every step they take today reaches higher than the man (or woman) before, tracing it all the way back to Goddard and Ham the Chimp. But our current space program hasn't captured the collective imagination of our country, and that's one reason NASA has to go begging for funding all the time.

We as a nation, and at NASA, went from "Man [on the] Moon [in this] Decade", to the somewhat less inspirational, "FASTER CHEAPER BETTER". Who besides me votes for a new vision?

Let's hope that the ISS can get us back on track for Mars.

Gee, then we can all go to ebay to bid against one another furiously for that next "one small step" autograph.

Oh, and DON'T FORGET to enjoy what you have in your collections right now, whatever they are!

Spacewalk

posted 08-11-2000 07:48 AM              

Okay, you think the writing appearing on this website is boring; why don't you sit down an write an article that's, "new and interesting" according to your lights?

And let's have a few groundrules: let's not brag about the rare items we have in our collection because we have lots of money to spend; let's not promote the items from our collection we've decided to sell...thus doing our fellow collectors a big favor; and let's
not cover the same ground others have covered ad infinitem like what a great "investment" a certain type of photo signed by Neil Armstrong is. Let's see some of that really "new and interesting", huh?

I also don't go crazy collecting Cosmonaut signatures, I have a number because I know some of these men, but you can't take away from them that many "firsts" in space were tried and accomplished by the Soviets; in some cases at the cost of their lives. And like it or not, NASA studied every scrap of information they could glean from every available Soviet source, so our astronauts could benefit from what they'd learned, for better or worse.

It was Al Bean that said most of the space pioneers will be forgotten in a hundred years and that's almost a sure bet, but I'm not going to be alive then; I lived through the wonder of the Sputnik, Mercury, the moon walks, Skylab and the rest, and my mementoes are for my enjoyment now. Certainly none of them are "investments", and I could care less what they'll sell for 50 years from now (I won't be here). My collection is simply an "investment" in me, and if it brings back happy memories, or takes my mind off other problems from time to time, then it's paying huge dividends, now, when I can ehjoy it.

I also collect in a casual way memtoes and signatures from the pioneer days of aviation, and many of those signatures can be purchased today for far less than 30-40 years ago. Why? Back then most dealers would recognize the names of the better-known pioneers, as their era wasn't that far removed. Most dealers today may remember the names of a dozen luminaries from the wood and canvas era if they're lucky, so they price the material of people they've never heard of quite low. In not too many years, when we've had some other great space accomplishment to get excited over, most of the names from 20th century apace exploration will be forgotten as well. Think about it, why do we remember Wally Schirra? Mostly because he was photogenic so CBS used him as a TV commentator for space mission after space mission. Otherwise he was the sixth American in space; big deal, can you name the fifth?
Most people, even avid space collectors can't....it was Bob White. Yep, he beat Wally into space, but collectors arean't exactly beating down HIS door for autographs. And when those of us whgo saw Wally and Walter Cronkite at every launch leave the scene you can bet ol'Wally be about as forgotten as any of the X-15 Astronauts.

So let's see that new and interesting series of articles, huh, Joe?

All the best,

Doc

posted 08-11-2000 02:08 PM               

There is a saying that "pay peanuts and you get monkeys", well the articles on this site reflect that admirably, you only get decent authorship when you pay. I have nothing personal against the authors, in fact I think very highly of some of them, what I am relating to is the quality of the articles that appear on this site, the journalistic merits, the hard facts behind them and longevity of the information.

Mr Hanson suggests I write something, are you serious ?! I have absolutely no urge to write any more, I have had a successful book published and over 30 articles in print (that I was paid for) and at least another 50 that I did for the love of it. My ego isnt sufficient that I have that need to see my name in print. If I do put pen to paper then it will be for my own website resource, not to further the ambitions of Robert's productions.

I mean no personal insult to anyone, and I wouldnt be posting in this thread if I didnt care about the website. I believe Robert has achieved a tremendous amount in taking it this far but now it needs an injection of quality. At the moment its like a school-yard of back-slapping and chit-chat.

One last point, I received the following email today in respohnse to the posting I wrote here, the person who sent it to me has given their permission for me to quote it so here it is in its entirity with the name of the sender removed.

"Dear Joe,

You are a nice guy, very talented and very smart, but you just don't get
this CollectSpace stuff. We collect space items so people can think how
wonderful we are. We write these columns in CollectSpace so our friends,
who also write columns in CollectSpace, can write feedback to the message
area and say what wonderful people we are. You kiss my ass, I kiss your
ass. That is what CollectSpace has gotten to be about. I do wish you would
get with the program and start kissing ass."

Somehow this summaries what I have been alluding to more eloquently than I could ever put.

Sincerely
Joe

posted 08-11-2000 02:59 PM               

If the editorial content sometimes rambles or contains anecdotes, that does no harm to you or anyone else. Just don't read it. The people who you refer to as monkeys here simply do the best they can. Sometimes its good stuff, sometimes it isn't. But it's the same in any other part of the publishing world. I certainly don't think your arrogance or derision adds anything positive.

posted 08-11-2000 03:19 PM               

It doesn't mean he's right or wrong, he just voicing an opinion.

Could he have been more tactful? Yes, but Joe shoots from the hip. That's why I like him.

Do we disagree? Hell yes, on a variety of subjects. I can admire a man that sticks to his guns, even if he pisses me off sometimes. You should see some of our email conversations.

Anyway, Joe thanks for the opinions, us monkeys will keep typing away.

q:-)

posted 08-11-2000 03:23 PM               

q:-)

------------------
Wayne Edelman

posted 08-11-2000 04:22 PM               

I liked it Bob........very well done.

Best,

posted 08-11-2000 08:47 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Davies:
I see the responses to my posting completely miss the point, but that is to be expected. Maybe I should qualify "new and interesting" - to me that is new and interesting to *collectSPACE*, i.e. articles that provide the basis of a repository of factual information that is useful as a reference for collectors, rather than a series of personal rambles, reminisces and anecdotes. Opinions are irrelevant, who has what is irrelevant. What is relevant is the hard facts behind the subject of collecting, those facts that provide a true RESOURCE.

---

Joe,

I appreciate your enthusiasm for seeing more resources added to collectSPACE. I seek to provide them when and where I can. Taking a quick glance at the front page of this site you will see there have been more "resources" than opinon pieces added in recent weeks. Donald Boggs contributed a great second installment to his NASA Publications series, I reported (before anyone else, if I might add) on the details of next class of NASA astronauts, and an interview (albeit a short one) with Gordon "Gordo" Cooper was published.

The opinion pieces -- Bob's "Other 350" and my review of Cooper's book accomplish another goal I set for this site: to lend the expertise of the experienced collectors to those just beginning. I have recently granted Wayne, a self-titled new collector, his own column to help provide the perspective of that portion of the readership. And Russ, as one of the most experienced, offers the insight only someone collecting for years could provide.

In the following weeks, I will be publishing more editorial and opinions, alongside an excellent three-part guide to collecting the Apollo astronauts by Doc Hanson (originally written for Autograph Times) and a guide to collecting space-related trading cards. I will also be contributing more news stories as news breaks.

There is an old saying which I am sure you have heard before: "You cannot please all of the people all of the time." I stride to keep this site pleasing as many as possible...

posted 08-12-2000 02:20 AM              

The true point, as I see it, is that CollectSpace allows fellow, average collector to contribute articles. I'm not sure if the article authors are compensated, but that is why this web site continues to grow. No one has the same size of their collection/hobby compared to other members, but the diversity and new comers(I myself have been collecting for about 3 years now), but that's why enjoy this hobby and my ability to share with others.

I would say, all articles/authors can only help us all. I someone needed my help, info wise/photo wise, we all help each other. That my fellow members is called friendship.

With out my newest friends, I would not have a complete Moonwalker and Mercury series, autographed astro books and in person meetings.

So if you dish it out, be a bigger person by taking it in as well.

posted 08-12-2000 08:07 AM               

The controversy arising from my article has
both amazed and amused me and I never dreamed
that my modest effort would set off such
debate.

No, I certainly wasn't compensated for my
article and only a thank you from Robert was
all I expected and wanted, other than
possibly encouraging some other collectors
to broaden their collecting interests. If
this happens, then my efforts were worth it.

In the midst of this, I received an Email
from a fellow collector where he mentioned
that he likes nothing better than reading
about the hobby he enjoys so much. I do, too,
and his statement got me to thinking.

The tragedy of all this would be that
the controversy and criticism might discourage other amateur writers from contributing
articles to collectSPACE that could be of
interest and use to the majority of readers.
Hopefully that won't happen and maybe even
the opposite could occur. As Robert pointed
out, you can't please everyone, so don't
be concerned if you don't.

And thanks to all those who liked my article.
Your nice words are appreciated.