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  Gemini 8 emergency and 'second guessers'

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Author Topic:   Gemini 8 emergency and 'second guessers'
Headshot
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Posts: 1166
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012

posted 01-17-2023 08:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Headshot   Click Here to Email Headshot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
At least four books, "The All-American Boys" (Cunningham), "First Man" (Hansen), "Two Sides of the Moon" (Scott and Leonov), and "The Last Man on the Moon" (Cernan and Davis) include comments that a number of astronauts believed that Neil Armstrong and David Scott botched their handling of the Gemini 8 emergency. The idea being that the crew should have found another way to regain control of Gemini 8 without activating the RCS system, which ended the mission prematurely.

Does anyone know or have an idea of who these Monday morning quarterback astronauts were? Was there any serious talk about what they would have done in Armstrong's and Scott's places to regain control without ending the mission early?

Tom
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Posts: 1680
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 01-17-2023 08:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom   Click Here to Email Tom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I highly doubt they would assign an astronaut to command the first lunar landing that "botched" his previous flight.

perineau
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Posts: 352
From: FRANCE
Registered: Jul 2007

posted 01-18-2023 07:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for perineau   Click Here to Email perineau     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
...or the other one to command the fourth lunar landing!

onesmallstep
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From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 01-18-2023 08:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for onesmallstep   Click Here to Email onesmallstep     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I doubt that there was any time to second-guess any decision on board Gemini 8; both astronauts were in danger of blacking out within seconds if they did not act quickly. Armstrong gave the order and Scott had given control of the Agena back to the ground, which enabled it to be used again as a rendezvous target on a later mission.

Easy to be a Monday morning quarterback when lives are at stake!

Blackarrow
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Posts: 3549
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 01-18-2023 09:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blackarrow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting question, which has occurred to me on reading those same books. I came to the conclusion that some astronauts had egos which would not allow them to conceive of a scenario where they would not have "done better." If you think you're the best, you will assume, given the same circumstances, that you would achieve a better outcome.

However, as already pointed out, Armstrong and Scott were in danger of blacking out. That would have been the end of it and Houston might never have established the true cause of the accident. Both had attempted to regain control, and I very much doubt that any other astronaut could have done better in the dire circumstances. What Armstrong did in activating and using the re-entry thrusters was to save both their lives, and the spacecraft (as crucial evidence).

When selecting Armstrong and Scott for future missions, Deke Slayton knew that both not only had previous spaceflight experience, but that they had reacted coolly and professionally in the face of a life-threatening emergency.

Captain Apollo
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posted 01-18-2023 10:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Captain Apollo   Click Here to Email Captain Apollo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I suppose the critics might have meant that they'd have diagnosed the problem with the stuck RCS thruster quicker, but the solution found by Armstrong and Scott was still the only solution? Could they have determined the problem was with one thruster on the Gemini and not the Agena by other means than undocking and if so, was there a solution (turning off just that thruster?) that would not have curtailed the mission? I doubt it.

Jim Behling
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From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010

posted 01-18-2023 12:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim Behling   Click Here to Email Jim Behling     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
  1. Gemini did not provide cockpit indications of thruster firing.
  2. The short would not have provided a cockpit indication, unless it was chamber pressure.
  3. The OAMS design meant there were four thrusters capable of inducing the roll.
  4. The program had an inherent distrust of the Agena, so undocking would be the first choice of anybody.
  5. The undocking had an unfortunate effect of increased roll due to a smaller moment of inertia of the Gemini spacecraft vs the combined vehicles.
  6. Shutting down the OAMS only prevented the roll rate from increasing more from the point of shutdown.
  7. To find the thruster to disable it, the crew would have had to turn all them back on and then turn off each of the four thrusters, all while roll rate would keep increasing.
  8. Only then would the crew be able to stop the roll using OAMS.

ashot
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posted 01-18-2023 12:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ashot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From Donald Arabian's oral history interview:
Yes, that was an electrical problem. Yes, well, those things, see, something like that happened, that was very good that Neil [A.] Armstrong did what he did on that one. That was very close to a catastrophe. I mean, he was on the verge of tearing that thing up [because of the rate of tumbling]. Yes, the angular velocity he had was pretty high.

Michael Davis
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Posts: 557
From: Houston, Texas
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 01-18-2023 02:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Davis   Click Here to Email Michael Davis     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lucky to have shared dinner with David Scott at Spacefest a few years back. Directly asked him about this emergency. He responded by saying he was beginning to go into tunnel vision and near blackout when Armstrong regained control. Scott was clear the only reason he was in Tucson to share the experience was because Neil Armstrong was in command that day.

Good enough for me.

mode1charlie
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Posts: 1395
From: Honolulu, HI
Registered: Sep 2010

posted 01-18-2023 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mode1charlie   Click Here to Email mode1charlie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Davis:
Lucky to have shared dinner with David Scott at Spacefest a few years back.

I don't remember if we were tablemates at the same event, but I also had dinner with Dave at the Spacefest in Pasadena, and he said exactly the same thing. He had nothing but praise for Armstrong's sharp thinking, and that that was the only reason he was alive and sitting with us at that moment.

Kite
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Posts: 1070
From: Northampton UK
Registered: Nov 2009

posted 01-19-2023 02:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Game, Set and Match, Jim Behling.

Explains it all.

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