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Author Topic:   Apollo moon landings under manual control
Ade74
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Posts: 47
From: Peterborough, England
Registered: Nov 2009

posted 05-20-2010 07:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ade74   Click Here to Email Ade74     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As we all know, Neil Armstrong took control of the lunar module when the computer was taking them into the boulder field and landed Apollo 11 manually. Did all the other five commanders land manually also?

Fra Mauro
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From: Bethpage, N.Y.
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posted 05-20-2010 09:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fra Mauro   Click Here to Email Fra Mauro     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes. I heard Gene Cernan say once that no commander, especially with their piloting backgrounds, would allow the LM to be landed by a computer. In addition, like on Apollo 11, the astronaut could make last-minute decisions as to the safety of the actual landing area.

MCroft04
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From: Smithfield, Me, USA
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posted 05-20-2010 08:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MCroft04   Click Here to Email MCroft04     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If my memory is correct, most commanders take manual control of the shuttle as well.

music_space
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From: Canada
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posted 05-20-2010 08:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for music_space   Click Here to Email music_space     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you are interested in the long answer to your question, I recommend "Digital Apollo: Human and Machine in Spaceflight" by David A. Mindell. You might want to read Roger Launius' review of it.

collectSPACE readers reviews are found here.

MadSci
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From: Maryland, USA
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posted 05-21-2010 05:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MadSci     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've seen it reported in several places that, true to his test pilot credentials, Jim Lovell planned to let the LM land itself as a demonstration of the system's capabilities.

Dedication overcoming ego.

Obviousman
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Posts: 438
From: NSW, Australia
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posted 05-27-2010 03:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Obviousman   Click Here to Email Obviousman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Slight correction, I believe. They didn't take manual control; they took semi-manual (or semi-automatic) control. I don't think any crew took full manual.

Max Q
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From: Whyalla South Australia
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posted 05-27-2010 04:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Max Q   Click Here to Email Max Q     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Semi Manual/Auto? Intriguing what systems remained in Auto they had control of the thrusters as I understand it so they guided the LM but what was the computer still doing for them.

ilbasso
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From: Greensboro, NC USA
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posted 05-27-2010 06:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ilbasso   Click Here to Email ilbasso     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The computer in this mode maintains a steady rate of descent while the CDR concentrates on maneuvering toward the landing site. It essentially gave the CDR one less thing to worry about while still giving him freedom to target an appropriate landing site.

Obviousman
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From: NSW, Australia
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posted 05-28-2010 01:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Obviousman   Click Here to Email Obviousman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
After the P64 programme the LM would go into P65, which was a full auto landing. No-one ever used this, though, and after P64 crews would manually switch to P66, the semi-automatic programme.

From here: Apollo GNC Software

Basically P66 can operate in four different ways:

  • The computer controls both vertical speed as set by the crew and nulls the horizontal speed,
  • The computer control only vertical speed as set by the crew, while the crew selects the attitude with the hand controls, to null the horizontal speed,
  • The crew controls the throttle of the engine to control the descend rate, while the computer nulls the horizontal speed,
  • The crew controls both the engine throttling and the attitude, and thereby lands the LM themselves. This is only practical for the two crewmembers at the same time.
P67 was full manual control.

Marc05A
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From: Reims, France
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posted 09-14-2018 06:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc05A   Click Here to Email Marc05A     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've read several accounts about Jim Lovell's intention to let the LM computer land the spacecraft in full automatic mode (P65). But I found this memo from Bill Tindall, dated January 7th 1970, explaining that P65 was being eliminated from the program list, in favor a new version of P66 with a horizontal velocity nulling capacity.

Here's the excerpt:

Since there is no apparent reason P65 would ever be preferred to the new Auto P66, the PGNCS logic is being fixed so that if the P64 target conditions are met prior to the crew taking over in P66, the automatic program switching from P64 will be to P66 Auto rather than P65. Thus, with this change and the one previously implemented so that the PGNCS ignores the throttle mode switch position, we have essentially eliminated both P65 and P67, and have remaining two modes of operation in P66.
Any idea why and/or when Jim Lovell made this statement about automatic landing, since an automatic landing was not possible anymore?

oly
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From: Perth, Western Australia
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posted 09-14-2018 07:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for oly   Click Here to Email oly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Marc05A:
Any idea why and/or when Jim Lovell made this statement about automatic landing, since an automatic landing was not possible anymore?
Auto land, or "Semi Auto Land" was still possible, in that the program change was written to remove a scenario whereby if the computer was in control of vertical and horizontal velocity, and the spacecraft flew over a crater that had a specific depth and profile, the radar altimeter signal return could trigger the spacecraft to pitch or roll at a rapid rate, while rapidly reducing throttle. This was because the sudden altitude increase, caused because the ground level inside the crater caused the computer to think the vertical velocity was climbing, and the computer could reduce the throttle to halt the climb, because the spacecraft was actually descending, such throttle reduction would cause the spacecraft to enter rapid rate of decent.

Also, because the crater wall slope surface return acts like the surface is falling away at an angle, the computer could mistake this for a required attitude change. The result of these two misdiagnosed events, could cause the spacecraft to drop rapidly in a rapid sideways/forward or backwards impact with the surface.

The software change introduced a limit to the pitch or roll rate of change input, placed a limit of throttle change, and ensured that any control inputs at lower altitudes received dampened control response.

The computer retained the ability to fly the spacecraft to the designated touchdown point at the determined rates automatically, and control throttle control.

All control inputs went via the computer, as the system was fly-by-wire, so the computer was always in the loop.

As indicated in the Tindalgram, the plan was to let the computer control the decent, at about 100 feet above ground, the crew confirm there is no boulder field below, and control the throttle with a switch that could increase or decrease the rate of decent by "toggling" up or down. If the Rate of decent were low enough at this height, a hands off landing was possible, with engine cutoff triggered by the contact light probe.

Based on this, Lovell could make this statement at any time.

Marc05A
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Posts: 39
From: Reims, France
Registered: May 2009

posted 09-14-2018 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc05A   Click Here to Email Marc05A     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for your explanation Oly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that if the crew did nothing (i.e. not engage P66) the computer would automatically switch from P64 to P65, and the LM would fly to the designated touchdown point, and slowly descend to the surface. All the crew would have to do in that scenario is to wait for the contact light and shut down the engine.

Is that description correct? And if so, did that autoland option change after Apollo 12, as described in the Tindallgram?

oly
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From: Perth, Western Australia
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posted 09-14-2018 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for oly   Click Here to Email oly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a complicated subject to cover in a post, an understanding of the lunar decent phases was required, so the stages of decent were identified. For this topic, the understanding of "high gate" and "low gate" are needed.

High gate was the point where a transition from braking phase to final approach and landing phase was initiated, Program 64. At this time the computer runs the approach phase program, which is basically the same as program 63, with the addition of Landing Point Indicator "LPI" signals, and a new set of mathematical limits. The computer also monitors Vectors, ROD and Altitude until the constraints of Low Key are met, at which time the computer loads Program 65.

Program 65 nulls the cross-range velocities (the moving forward or sideways vectors) to zero, and controls the rate of descent to landing. If all went to plan, it could be hands off from here. No control of landing position was possible by the crew during P63, P64 or P65. However, if the landing site in front of the astronauts was deemed unfit (a boulder field), Program 66 was selected, throttle adjustments meant the rate of decent could be slowed, and P67 was used to allow a manual input of controls to steer the spacecraft forward, aft or sideways. Due to the field of view from the LM, going forward was the best option.

Following a review of previous flights, the issue of potential serious issues overflying certain craters was identified. This issue would be worse for landings in rough terrain of highlands, and could result in an auto flight into terrain.

It should be noted that if crew made throttle of control inputs during these programs, nothing happened, because the computer was driving.

I believe Alan Bean gave an interview where he talks about how violent he found the control response that Pete Conrad was getting during the Apollo 12 landing, with the sensation that the spacecraft was going to tip over.

With the lessons taken from 11 and 12, plus the need to make software changes, Program 65 was skipped at low key, going straight into program 66. P66 was called Rate of Descent, because this was the prime concern at this stage of the landing. The crew could now make throttle adjustments using a switch, with the computer maintaining attitude control. One concern during this phase was the landing radar receiving strange returns from the dust being scattered by rocket efflux, so if the computer made bad decisions at this time, or the crew wanted to land somewhere else, they simply selected P67, which allowed nulled manual control inputs. If they did nothing during P66, and the rate of decent was within limits, the LM would land all by itself.

It could be compared to riding an elevator down as fast as possible, with you manually gauging how fast the thing is falling, and deciding when and how much to apply the brakes. If you get it wrong, you hit before you slow, or, you stop before the ground, but you have no frame of reference about how far from the ground you are, because you do not know how big the rocks and craters really are. (Is it a toy car or a real car below your elevator?) This is why the LM shadow was an extremely useful aid. It gave a reference of surface scale.

There are many great resources on this subject, and it takes some time to understand. Each mission had different software configurations that could be bolted into the computer before launch. (Yes bolted, physically climbing into the LM and bolting in new memory modules.)

So, the auto land option was absorbed into P66 by default, because no change of throttle by the crew resulted in the computer controlling landing, but the crew could put in a request for a throttle position change to the computer is desired.

There are many fantastic, and in-depth resourses on this subject. I believe this is a good starting point.

Marc05A
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Posts: 39
From: Reims, France
Registered: May 2009

posted 09-15-2018 11:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc05A   Click Here to Email Marc05A     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's all clear now. Thanks a lot!

RobertB
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Posts: 168
From: Israel
Registered: Nov 2012

posted 09-15-2018 03:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RobertB   Click Here to Email RobertB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Don Eyles' "Sunburst and Luminary" also discusses this.

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