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Author
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Topic: Apollo 11: Where is the Eagle?
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Keith Barber
Member Posts: 326
From: Warwickshire
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 12-07-2003 07:15 AM
   
I have a book by Tim Furness called "One Small Step" (Apollo 11 20th Anniversary) and it states that Snoopy (Apollo 10 Module) is in solar orbit and the Apollo 12 to Apollo 17 modules crashed to the moon, but states the Apollo 11 module is still in lunar orbit. Is this correct as I watched a programme last week which stated it was sent crashing down to the lunar surface? |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 12-07-2003 12:14 PM
Keith, I believed it impacted the moon. I'll try to find other sites. I hope this helps! |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2141
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 12-07-2003 02:40 PM
Strangely one of the most recent sources I thought to look in (Apollo By The Numbers) has no data for the Ascent stage impact for Apollo 11! |
Keith Barber
Member Posts: 326
From: Warwickshire
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 12-07-2003 03:03 PM
Thanks for your links. It would be amazing if it was still in orbit. I'll claim salvage rights!!! |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-07-2003 03:12 PM
Eagle's ascent stage did impact the Moon though its location is not known. The seismometers left on the Moon by the crew registered the impact. |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2141
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 12-07-2003 04:33 PM
I don't think there will probably be any salvage rights on Eagle (if it were still in orbit), Snoopy or the Apollo 12 SIVB stage. The US government would argue that they are not abandoned, merely placed in storage in an unusual place!Do you have a date for the impact Robert? Going by the dates for the other stages (of which Orion is missing as well) I would have thought that it was within a few days of being undocked. Maybe the mascons pull them out of orbit pretty quickly. As for location I would guess that is pretty hard to pin down, as at the time there was only one seismometer on the surface so they couldn't compare sensor readings between two like they could after Apollo 12. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-07-2003 04:44 PM
I do not have a date for the impact -- but I will continue looking. On the subject of salvage rights, the Smithsonian has title to all Apollo hardware on the Moon and in space. They also "own" the Viking landers. To obtain rights to them for salvage, you would need to first negotiate a contract much like was done for the Liberty Bell 7. |
Keith Barber
Member Posts: 326
From: Warwickshire
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 12-07-2003 04:53 PM
Thanks, I may try in the New Year!! |
Ben
Member Posts: 1896
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: May 2000
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posted 12-07-2003 11:08 PM
The Apollo 11 ascent stage did impact the moon, but was NOT recorded by any seismic stations, so when and where it hit is unknown in the history books to date; the same goes for 16.12,14,15,17, the impact site is known and listed below. Apollo 10 is in heliocentric orbit around the sun. Data of the impact of Apollos 12, 14-17 can be found here and here. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-08-2003 05:10 AM
I stand corrected. The source I was citing for the seismometer readings is apparently the only source that lists it being recorded, making it in error.(However, by most accounts, the Apollo 11 ascent stage did impact the Moon within a year of the landing, which would mean that it very well could have been recorded by the seismometers left by Apollo 12, which operated until 1977, though it wouldn't be recognized as such as the stage wasn't being tracked.) |
spaceuk
Member Posts: 2113
From: Staffs, UK
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 12-08-2003 05:34 PM
Here's a table of the Apollo LM stage whereabouts: Some of this data has probably been refined and I believe it is almost certain that the Apollo 11 LM ascent stage has now impacted.[Didn't someone some years back now (2-3 years ago?) claim they had pinpointed a possible impact site from Clementine images? I'd have thought Clementine images were of to lo-res for that? |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 12-15-2003 07:34 PM
Here are some interesting pics. Not Apollo ascent stages, but craters from an Apollo rocket stage and Ranger 7. |
WAWalsh
Member Posts: 809
From: Cortlandt Manor, NY
Registered: May 2000
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posted 12-16-2003 01:17 PM
Does anyone know why Snoopy was sent off into a heliocentric orbit? It does seem to be an unique fate. |
sts205cdr
Member Posts: 649
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 12-16-2003 01:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by WAWalsh:
Does anyone know why Snoopy was sent off into a heliocentric orbit? It does seem to be an unique fate.
As I recall, controllers fired the ascent engine after undocking to see how long it would burn before depleting its fuel. |
HansReinhart
New Member Posts: 3
From: Boise, Idaho, USA
Registered: Jun 2006
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posted 11-02-2007 01:43 PM
Is there any way to see the current position of Snoopy online as it relates to Earth, Sun, Moon? |
cddfspace
Member Posts: 609
From: Morris County, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 11-02-2007 02:35 PM
Great thread — thanks for the info and keep it coming! |
R.Glueck
Member Posts: 115
From: Winterport, Maine, USA
Registered: Jul 2004
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posted 11-02-2007 05:35 PM
A few years ago, the earth had a close encounter with an unidentified object which was later identified as the third stage of Apollo 12. With the data collected, it serves logic that somebody is keeping tabs on it. Likewise, "Snoopy" apparently orbits in a path that brings it near the earth periodically. Once identified, permanent tracking could easily be maintained and updated with computers. Both, especially the LEM, would make outstanding museum exhibits if the cash to recover them was ponied up. We are not talking about chump change here. For however long it takes before somebody wants them back that badly, they are fairly safe, I would think!
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Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3160
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 11-05-2007 05:09 PM
It would be nice to think that one day Tracy Cernan (or her children or grandchildren) could visit the Air and Space Museum and see "Snoopy" on display, complete with micrometeoroid penetrations from decades spent in deep space. As the only flown Apollo LM ascent stage still in one piece (barring major impacts) "Snoopy" will surely be a salvage target one day. Well, it's a nice thought. |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 11-05-2007 10:33 PM
Apollo 10 was also left with its systems on after undocking to see how long the electronics would operate once the cooling water ran out. This data was most helpful in determining the amount of time the electronics on Aquarius would stay operable if they ran out of water during Apollo 13's return to Earth.Big thing about lunar orbit is that the mascons ultimately distort the trajectory in such a way as to eventually cause an impact. Granted since the 1960s, there probably are some better orbit plots for the later generations of unmanned spaceprobes. But even if all the LM ascent stages that went to the moon were parked in orbit rather then crashed (or sent out of orbit), they would eventually get dragged down to the surface by the gravity mass distortions from the mascons. As for the modules on the Moon, Roger Lanius of the Smithsonian in a recent talk said he was willing and able to be sent to the moon to put up some rope offs around the A11 descent stage if called upon.  |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 11-05-2007 11:20 PM
There is a scene in the cartoon Futerama where the main characters come across the Apollo 11 Lunar Module. The ascent stage has been placed on top of the descent stage and the characters climbed inside.It would be great if the Apollo 10 ascent stage could be recovered but to be honest if it was then if past experience is anything to go by, it would be stripped down, taken apart, bits lost, put back together using bits of mockups and other Lunar Modules, the hatch sent to one museum, the instrument panel placed in a mock up at KSC and the newly "restored' Snoopy sent off to another museum. Such is the fate of flown spacecraft. I would love it if one of the shuttles could land, have all of its fuel and other hazardous materials removed and then just placed in a museum fresh off the tarmac. What are the chances of that? |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 11-06-2007 01:04 AM
I think when the orbiters do get retired, they will probably get displayed like that. Knowing the Smithsonian, they will try to keep them preserved as close to their flight appearance as possible.As for the LMs, I hope that some future museum director doesn't get a bright idea to stick the Snoopy Ascent stage on top of the Eagle descent stage just to have a complete lander. It might be cool to see, but not historically accurate.  |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 11-06-2007 01:19 AM
Jay I'm with you on that. Although I can see why it was done, it really jars with me that the Apollo 15 instrument panel is inside the Apollo 16 Command Module. Putting Snoopy on top of the Eagle would not be very fitting. |
Max Q
Member Posts: 399
From: Whyalla South Australia
Registered: Mar 2007
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posted 11-06-2007 05:18 AM
quote:
Originally posted by nasamad:
The US government would argue that they are not abandoned, merely placed in storage in an unusual place!
I think they would have a bit of trouble with that argument. They even used the term jettison which at least seems to say abandoned to me. |
R.Glueck
Member Posts: 115
From: Winterport, Maine, USA
Registered: Jul 2004
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posted 11-06-2007 07:31 PM
I too, have a problem with how parts were scrambled from recovered spacecraft in order to refurbish other recovered spacecraft! Were control panels flown twice? What would be the point of stripping out one vessel, except to analyze if something went wrong in flight? I gather that Apollo 13's CM was gutted almost in entirety, prior to being hidden in Paris. Today is is likely the most famous CM of all, apart from "Columbia", and refurbished with replica parts from somewhere else.
I take it the "Orion" spacecraft is designed for multiple flights, with replacement of the heat shield, or am I wrong on that?
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Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-06-2007 08:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by R.Glueck:
Were control panels flown twice?
Yes: The case of the missing Apollo 15 panels quote:
What would be the point of stripping out one vessel, except to analyze if something went wrong in flight?
Not everything that goes wrong fails in flight. You could be flying with a defect and never know it... quote:
I gather that Apollo 13's CM was gutted almost in entirety, prior to being hidden in Paris. Today is is likely the most famous CM of all, apart from "Columbia", and refurbished with replica parts from somewhere else.
Odyssey was restored using its original parts, recovered from other museums. quote:
I take it the "Orion" spacecraft is designed for multiple flights, with replacement of the heat shield, or am I wrong on that?
Yes, you are correct. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 11-06-2007 08:43 PM
I wonder which of the flown Apollo Command Modules is the most intact?And how intact is Columbia? I remember walking around Shakespeare's birthplace in Stratford-upon-Avon and asking the guide which parts of the house dated from when he lived there. I had to laugh when I asked, "Is this the original floor"? The answer was no, likewise when I asked about walls and doors and windows. In the end the guide pulled back a piece of the wall covering and showed me some wood and mud and straw and other pieces of wall covering and proclaimed proudly that, "this is original"! |
ivorwilliams
Member Posts: 69
From: Welwyn Garden City, UK
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 11-12-2007 07:11 AM
quote:
Originally posted by nasamad:
Strangely one of the most recent sources I thought to look in (Apollo By The Numbers) has no data for the Ascent stage impact for Apollo 11!
I looked at that site at noticed this snippet in the Apollo 17 section; "The first two of eight explosive packages placed by the crew on the lunar surface were detonated at 210:15:14.56 and 212:44:57.11. Both events were picked up by the lunar seismic profiling geophones, and the resulting flash and dust from the second explosion were seen on television." Is there any footage of this event available? |
leslie
Member Posts: 231
From: Surrey, England
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 11-27-2007 05:33 AM
The ascent stage of Eagle hit the moon at a velocity of 5K feet per second.It'll be in small pieces! |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1624
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 04-09-2019 12:43 PM
Do you think the LMs just crumpled upon impact or was there an explosion? |
Headshot
Member Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 04-09-2019 01:15 PM
While the abandoned LM ascent stage was mostly empty volume, it did have a number of high density items like the instrument panels, batteries, the ascent engine etc. I am not certain how fast it might have been traveling at impact, but I would characterize it as a very rapid conversion of kinetic energy to heat, light and compression of the lunar surface ... an explosion. |
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