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Author
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Topic: Last Gemini and first Apollo flight together?
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para629
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posted 02-16-2006 01:26 AM
   
I have been working for some time on an alternative history book on the race to the moon. I recently read that a NASA administrator remarked in early 1966 that a Gemini Flight and the 1st Apollo mission was being considered to fly at the same time. My thoughts in a what if...Conrad and Gordon fly a cimcumlunar mission with Gemini. Apollo 1 fire does not occur and is in orbit and rendezvous with the Gemini translunar booster. Provided the aforementioned occurs - would it be feasible for Apollo to send TV pictures of Gemini docking and doing TLI? Also, feasibility of Richard Gordon doing a stand up EVA and transmitting TV pictures during the loop around the moon? I would greatly appreciate any information/insight/comments on my what if. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1610
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 02-16-2006 03:00 PM
If I remember correctly, the original plan was for Apollo 1 to fly in November '66 along with the final Gemini (12).When hardware problems cropped up in Apollo, the flight was pushed back to February '67 and Gemini 12 went on to fly as previously scheduled. |
edmk5000
Member Posts: 49
From: Homestead, FL USA
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 02-18-2006 06:21 PM
It is interesting to think of two programs flying at the same time. I wonder if how "compatible" some of the systems would be in mission control for Gemini and Apollo. For example, the data formats for telemetry and GGC vs AGC guidance computers.The MMC was capable of handling two simultanious Gemini missions (G6/G7). I have read that the MMC at Johnson was first used on Gemini 4. I haven't found any info on the net about what changes were made to support Apollo. Or for that matter, it would be interesting to know what changes in equipment were made between Apollo, ASTP, Skylab, and the Shuttle. From Jenkins' space shuttle book, the MCC was set up to handle two shuttles at the same time.
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jasonelam
Member Posts: 691
From: Monticello, KY USA
Registered: Mar 2007
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posted 10-28-2010 10:20 AM
I remember a few years ago reading that a joint flight of Gemini 12 and Apollo 1 was considered had delays not developed in the Apollo program. Has anyone else heard of this?Editor's note: Threads merged. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 10-28-2010 11:02 AM
I know there was some discussion of it as late as early 1966, but as to whether it ever got beyond that stage I don't know. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 10-28-2010 11:21 AM
Hmm, I wonder, if Gemini and Apollo had overlapped, if it would be possible for an Apollo capsule to rescue the Gemini one if it were stranded in space?  (A wink and a nudge to an apparently controversial thread on this same Forum...) |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 10-28-2010 01:37 PM
MMMMMMMMM!  |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 10-28-2010 02:49 PM
And if the Apollo rescue craft was crippled and got into a low enough orbit, could the astronauts have leapt onto a balloon, met up with Joe Kittinger, and then parachuted 120,000 feet to safety? |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3446
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 10-28-2010 04:43 PM
[In a blur of frantic pencil scribbling, sheets of scrap paper flying all over the place]: "4 p.m.! The two trains will meet outside Chicago at 4 p.m.!" |
Obviousman
Member Posts: 438
From: NSW, Australia
Registered: May 2005
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posted 10-28-2010 06:26 PM
You guys have it all wrong.Just use the ejection seats! |
music_space
Member Posts: 1179
From: Canada
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 10-28-2010 06:37 PM
I remember this project being alluded to in a book which I read again this year. Might be Collins' "Carrying the Fire", but more probably "Moonshot". |
Skylon
Member Posts: 277
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 10-28-2010 09:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by music_space:
I remember this project being alluded to in a book which I read again this year. Might be Collins' "Carrying the Fire", but more probably "Moonshot".
The main source I remember was Collins' book. I guess there is some logic. Flying an Apollo CSM with another active spacecraft would enable a workout of rendezvous procedures and equipment on the Apollo, which it would eventually need to do with a manned Lunar Module. Frankly, it seems like it'd clutter up two very busy flights, and be more of a PR stunt. Gemini 12 was busy enough with Agena rendezvous and docking, and it also ended up as a test-bed for new EVA techniques (it was not known this would happen though whenever a joint GT-12, AS-204 flight would have been considered). Apollo 1 of course would be pretty packed as it was flying a brand new vehicle. Of course, Apollo 1 was then also classed as an "open ended" space flight. Something I don't think has ever been considered since. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 10-29-2010 02:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Skylon:
Of course, Apollo 1 was then also classed as an "open ended" space flight. Something I don't think has ever been considered since.
Of course 'open ended' is managementspeak for "We haven't decided what the objectives are yet." |
Skylon
Member Posts: 277
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 10-29-2010 06:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
Of course 'open ended' is managementspeak for "We haven't decided what the objectives are yet."
From Gene Kranz's book: "No one knew how many orbits Apollo 1 would attempt. Grissom, White and Chaffee would have been blazing another path, an open ended mission, a bold departure from the rigid, limited spaceflights of the past. Theirs was to be essentially an engineering flight..." That reads like "We are going to test as much of the Apollo spacecraft as possible, stay up as long as necessary, unless something goes wrong." Fairly open ended for a space flight. |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 10-31-2010 07:27 PM
In the "what if" department, if MOL had not been canceled, then Apollo and Gemini hardware would have been in space at the same time. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 11-01-2010 03:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Skylon:
That reads like "We are going to test as much of the Apollo spacecraft as possible, stay up as long as necessary, unless something goes wrong." Fairly open ended for a space flight.
By 'open ended' NASA meant a flight for a duration of 'up to 14 days duration'. If the mission objectives were met before then, ending the flight early would be a consideration. |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 11-01-2010 02:25 PM
Only thing about Apollo 1 was it intended to use a Block 1 spacecraft and those were not designed for lunar missions. They were an engineering hardware stopgap until the Block 2 ships intended for rendezvous and docking were ready to fly. With enough fuel, I am sure one could have done a lunar flyby and maybe an Apollo 8 orbital mission, but I don't even know if Apollo 1 would have had the full flight computer or not and that was pretty necessary for navigation outside of Earth orbit. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3446
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 11-02-2010 07:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ilbasso:
In the "what if" department, if MOL had not been canceled, then Apollo and Gemini hardware would have been in space at the same time.
Then what if Apollo Applications was canceled in favor of a lunar-orbiting MOL? No, I won't ask that question.... |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 11-02-2010 12:26 PM
I'm glad you didn't ask that question. I was going to answer, but now won't. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3446
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 11-02-2010 03:15 PM
And if the X-20 program had continued, Dyna-Soar would have been available to use as a rescue craft for Apollo (assuming that the crew were stuck in or could make it back to Earth orbit.) |
Rusty B
Member Posts: 239
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 02-05-2011 07:15 PM
Here are links to newspaper articles of the time (in the Google newspaper archive)
that reveal that there were tentative plans to fly Apollo 1 and Gemini 12 in a joint mission: Then as of May 1966, Dr Joel Shea said it was getting too late to change Apollo to conform with Gemini equipment and the Apollo 1/Gemini 12 joint mission probably wouldn't happen. |
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