Space News
space history and artifacts articles

Messages
space history discussion forums

Sightings
worldwide astronaut appearances

Resources
selected space history documents

Websites
related space history websites

  collectSPACE: Messages
  Mercury - Gemini - Apollo
  Politics, Apollo, Ed David and Richard Nixon (Page 1)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search


This topic is 2 pages long:   1  2 
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Politics, Apollo, Ed David and Richard Nixon
Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 27328
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 11-03-2005 09:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From the University of Colorado at Boulder's Center for Science and Technology Policy Research:
quote:
The webcast and transcript of our visit with Ed David, science advisor to Richard Nixon from 1970-1973, are now available online.

...

"The interesting aspect of all this was the reason for considering canceling 16 and 17 in the first place. That reason was essentially political. It focused on the timing of those two launches vis-a-vis the 1972 presidential election. Apollo 17 was slated to launch about a month before the election day, early in November, 1972. The big worry by the political forces in the White House was that if there was an accident of Apollo 17, it would bear heavily on the election outcome negatively. I suggested that Apollo be postponed, however, until December after the election, a month after it, and that Apollo 16 was too early to have much influence on the outcome, we did win that day for the final two moon missions."


Has the suggested election-driven cancellation of Apollo 16 and Apollo 17 been reported before?

carmelo
Member

Posts: 792
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 11-04-2005 08:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now is clear,now is incontestable,the worst enemy of US manned space program was Richard M. Nixon.

Scott
Member

Posts: 3293
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001

posted 11-04-2005 09:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I read somewhere in one of the main space books (I don't remember if it was Collins' autobiography or elsewhere) that Nixon personally axed the plan for the USS John F. Kennedy to pick up the Apollo 11 crew at sea and sent another ship instead. I read that he associated the space program with JFK and so was fairly indifferent to it, due to their antagonistic history with one another.

Aztecdoug
Member

Posts: 1330
From: Huntington Beach
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 11-04-2005 09:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aztecdoug   Click Here to Email Aztecdoug     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scott:
I read somewhere in one of the main space books (I don't remember if it was Collins' autobiography or elsewhere) that Nixon personally axed the plan for the USS John F. Kennedy to pick up the Apollo 11 crew at sea and sent another ship instead. I read that he associated the space program with JFK and so was fairly indifferent to it, due to their antagonistic history with one another.

Sigh... another urban myth of hate and lies.

I don't think the JFK has ever in it's entire existance even sailed into the Pacific to begin with. She was destined for service in the Med and the Indian ocean. Just the usual propoganda of hate generated by the the usual band of historical revisionists... after all when facts don't fit your agenda, simply make up your own that do.

What next, people are going to say we didn't really land on the moon?

------------------
Kind Regards

Douglas Henry

Enjoy yourself and have fun.... it is only a hobby!
http://home.earthlink.net/~aztecdoug/

carmelo
Member

Posts: 792
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 11-04-2005 10:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nixon was a mean man.He hated the Apollo program because thought was a Kennedy heritage."His" space program would have had to be the Space Shuttle,but with Nixon administration's scarce funds for NASA, the shuttle could not be fully reusable,and a large space station (the logical next step after STS) could not be financed.For these reasons the shuttle program was "a mistake" (in the words of Michael Griffin). Thanks Tricky Dick!

cfreeze79
Member

Posts: 300
From: Martinez, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 11-04-2005 11:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cfreeze79   Click Here to Email cfreeze79     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I strongly disargee... The worst enemy of the US manned space program was, and continues to be, the 'hippie' taxpayer perception of, "We need to stop wasting money on those 'pie-in-the-sky' projects with no direct benefits here on earth, and spend it on more important things, like the homeless, forgein aid, and other stuff."

Now, I don't think NASA has earned the 'blank check' funding that some others believe it deserves, but the knee-jerk reaction the 'hippie' sentiment I described is why politicians, Ds and Rs alike, take the sides that they do.

Besides, if you really want to demonize a US politician regarding the space program, set your sights off of Nixon, and focus them on Walter Mondale...

And no, I didn't vote for Nixon, ever...

[This message has been edited by cfreeze79 (edited November 04, 2005).]

Glint
Member

Posts: 747
From: New Windsor, Maryland USA
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 11-04-2005 12:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glint   Click Here to Email Glint     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cfreeze79:
if you really want to demonize a US politician regarding the space program, set your sights off of Nixon, and focus them on Walter Mondale.

You got that right.

An early foe of the space shuttle program was U.S. Sen. Walter Mondale, who in 1972 called it an "enormous federal boondoggle" and charged: "President Nixon's decision to proceed with the development of the space shuttle is another example of perverse priorities and colossal waste in government spending. There is expert evidence that we can achieve the same scientific and utilitarian goals in space at only a fraction of the billions to be spent on the shuttle."

Source.

Scott
Member

Posts: 3293
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001

posted 11-04-2005 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Glint:
You got that right.

An early foe of the space shuttle program was U.S. Sen. Walter Mondale, who in 1972 called it an "enormous federal boondoggle" and charged: "President Nixon's decision to proceed with the development of the space shuttle is another example of perverse priorities and colossal waste in government spending. There is expert evidence that we can achieve the same scientific and utilitarian goals in space at only a fraction of the billions to be spent on the shuttle."

Source.



Glint,
Are you trying to put down Mondale or compliment him? I've never been a big fan of Mondale but if he said the above then IMO he had it right and was a real "visionary".

But Nixon wasn't all bad. He loved signing his books for autograph collectors through the mail. Thanks, Dick!

Glint
Member

Posts: 747
From: New Windsor, Maryland USA
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 11-04-2005 06:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glint   Click Here to Email Glint     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scott:

Glint,
Are you trying to put down Mondale or compliment him? I've never been a big fan of Mondale but if he said the above then IMO he had it right and was a real "visionary".

I wouldn't consider Mondale a visionary since he did not offer his own plan. He simply nipped at the heels of others who were making plans for future manned space flight.

One obvious benefit of the space shuttle program is that it has served to hold together a basic core of talent that otherwise would have evaporated long ago.

carmelo
Member

Posts: 792
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 11-04-2005 07:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cfreeze79:

And no, I didn't vote for Nixon, ever...



I preferred Nelson D. Rockefeller or William Scranton.

cfreeze79
Member

Posts: 300
From: Martinez, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 11-04-2005 10:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cfreeze79   Click Here to Email cfreeze79     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by carmelo:

I preferred Nelson D. Rockefeller or William Scranton.

Me? I'm still backing Alf Landon!

John Charles
Member

Posts: 316
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 11-05-2005 05:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for John Charles     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aztecdoug:
Sigh... another urban myth of hate and lies.

I don't think the JFK has ever in it's entire existance even sailed into the Pacific to begin with. She was destined for service in the Med and the Indian ocean. Just the usual propoganda of hate generated by the the usual band of historical revisionists... after all when facts don't fit your agenda, simply make up your own that do.


There is a memo in the archives from a young George Abbey to his management (Robert Gilruth was the MSC center director at the time, but I don't recall if he was the recipient) suggesting the the JFK be dispatched to retrieve Apollo 11 in the Pacific. The reponse was something like it wouldn't be hard to guess the White House's response to that idea. I will try to locate that correspondence and provide a source.

------------------
John Charles
Houston, Texas

spacecraft films
Member

Posts: 802
From: Columbus, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 11-05-2005 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spacecraft films   Click Here to Email spacecraft films     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But... a memo of this type is a long way from the often-mentioned story that the administration vetoed sending the JFK. I've seen the story presented as quite a hostile event, but there isn't any evidence to support this. While one can easily imagine the Nixon (or any cross party) administration taking such an action, that doesn't mean it did, and to me our (those who lived during the moon landings) important task is to preserve what REALLY happened, without letting embelishments get passed along to become fact in the distant future.

In looking further, the JFK was commissioned on 9/7/68, and her maiden voyage was to the Mediterranean Sea, where she made another seven deployments to this part of the world in the 1970s due to the situation in the middle east. That's a long way from being available for recovery duty in the Pacific, politics or no politics.

Having been built after the Enterprise as an oil-fired carrier, she and the Kitty Hawk are the sole remaining oil-burning CVs in the U.S. fleet. She is expected to take over the role of the sole foreign-based U.S. carrier (in Japan) from the Kitty Hawk in 2008. The current planned retirement date for the Kennedy (CV-67) is 2018.

Mark

[This message has been edited by spacecraft films (edited November 05, 2005).]

spacecraft films
Member

Posts: 802
From: Columbus, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 11-05-2005 06:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spacecraft films   Click Here to Email spacecraft films     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Haldeman's diaries have some interesting insights into Nixon and Apollo 11. On July 14 he says:

"Had a session about planning overall for Apollo XI... Met with Frank Borman... Also all cranked up about playing "Star Spangled Banner" when flag placed on moon. Borman opposed, because astronauts would lose three minutes at attention, and possible adverse reaction about overnationalism."

On July 20:

... Borman, P and I watched on little TV in little office. When Neil hit the surface, P clapped and said "Hooray."....

He wrote his own remarks (for the telephone call) instead of using the suggestions. (Interestingly, this is followed up by a discussion of how P is going to hit hard on "Kennedy thing" - Chappaquidick had just happened - moon landing/politics... equal billing!)

So during the moon landing Nixon was thinking about a Kennedy... just a different brother...

Back to the original thread topic. I can find no mention of an election year discussion of Apollo 16/17 in Haldeman's diaries. (the index is really bad, so I was scanning for it in the appropriate time frames)...

Mark

[This message has been edited by spacecraft films (edited November 05, 2005).]

ejectr
Member

Posts: 1488
From: Brimfield, MA
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 11-05-2005 06:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ejectr   Click Here to Email ejectr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It would have been hard for the U.S.S. John F. Kennedy to have participated in the Apollo 11 recovery.

She was in the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard Dry Dock in July of '69 along with the U.S.S. America and the U.S.S. Franklin D. Roosevelt.

I saw it there.

[This message has been edited by ejectr (edited November 05, 2005).]

bruce
Member

Posts: 830
From: Fort Mill, SC, USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 11-05-2005 07:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bruce   Click Here to Email bruce     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regardless of what Mondale may have said, history indicates that Nixon actually pulled the rug out from under the Apollo program, for whatever political reason(s). His efforts also erased what would have been a likely "on to Mars" program after the lunar landings. I would also suggest we go easy on the name calling. I'll bet some would have called Rusty Schweickart a "hippie taxpayer".

Best,
Bruce


WAWalsh
Member

Posts: 791
From: Cortlandt Manor, NY
Registered: May 2000

posted 11-06-2005 11:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WAWalsh   Click Here to Email WAWalsh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Carmelo suggests that President Nixon was the worst enemy of the space program. Phish and piddle. Of all applicable presidents, President Carter has held that title since he took office. The bizarre thing was that even in 1969, although it was the United States accomplishing the feat, some viewed the sitting President's involvement as improper. The New York Times actually ran an editorial on 7/20 calling the scheduled telephone call to the Moon "unseemly" and of questionable taste. President Nixon made sure that LBJ was at the launch, a nod to the former administration.

As to the cancellation of Apollo, the easiest truth may be that reality finally caught up and over took the dream of a martyred president. Some points to consider:

* we won the race
* an absence of competition (the Soviets shifted their attention to duration missions)
* the war in Viet Nam was an enormous drain on the economy (and not going particularly well)
* for those who forget, an Arab Oil Embargo
* likewise, an economy in such a difficult position that the President put in place wage and price controls
* lunar missions were, despite the amazing success rate, a very dangerous activity with a high probability of accident or failure
* no budgetary support for additional missions from a Democratic-controlled Congress
* a scientific community that did not fully support manned missions
* little perceived value or return from the program

Given all of this, it is not surprising that the nation's leadership made the wrong decision.

carmelo
Member

Posts: 792
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 11-07-2005 12:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by WAWalsh:
Some points to consider:

* we won the race
* an absence of competition (the Soviets shifted their attention to duration missions)
* the war in Viet Nam was an enormous drain on the economy (and not going particularly well)
* for those who forget, an Arab Oil Embargo
* likewise, an economy in such a difficult position that the President put in place wage and price controls
* lunar missions were, despite the amazing success rate, a very dangerous activity with a high probability of accident or failure
* no budgetary support for additional missions from a Democratic-controlled Congress
* a scientific community that did not fully support manned missions
* little perceived value or return from the program


And a President not really interested to Space programs.

[This message has been edited by carmelo (edited November 07, 2005).]

carmelo
Member

Posts: 792
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 11-07-2005 12:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And Mr. President Nixon...you want close manned mission on the moon? ok. You not believe in AAP programs? ok.you want a spaceplane? ok.But at least give sufficent funds for a fully reusable space shuttle (with an escape crew system),an large modular space station,and a space tug.Or else at the end you will obtain only an space "mistake".

[This message has been edited by carmelo (edited November 07, 2005).]

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 27328
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 11-07-2005 02:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by carmelo:
And a President not really interested to Space programs.
T.A. Heppenheimer, writing NASA History Series SP-4221 The Space Shuttle Decision, seems to disagree:
quote:
Richard Nixon liked space flight. "I can remember Nixon coming off a phone conversation with the astronauts," John Ehrlichman recalls.

And you know, they are up on the moon, and [Nixon was] as high as a kite. He got a big charge out of them. Then when the astronauts would come to the White House for dinner afterwards, he would always be enormously stimulated by contact with these folks. He liked heroes. He thought it was good for this country to have heroes.

Like other presidents before and since, he basked in the reflected glory of spacefarers. When the crew of Apollo 11 returned from the first landing on the moon, he was aboard the aircraft carrier USS Hornet to greet them. He then used this triumph to gain diplomatic advantage, for after hailing the achievement, he set out on a nine-day world tour that took him to capitals in Southeast Asia, India, Pakistan, and Europe. Significantly, he had planned this tour well in advance of the Apollo 11 flight, anticipating its safe return. "The President had rather daringly pegged his trip to the success of this operation," Tom Paine later remarked.

Had he gone out to the Pacific to be present at the splashdown and had there been some kind of an accident, it might have harmed considerably his ability then to have the successful trip, which was his first trip abroad as President. I was scared to death that we would have a fiasco or even a tragedy. We just wondered whether he knew the odds as well as we did. Well, fortunately Apollo 11 was a success, and in the ensuing world trip, everywhere the President went, the only thing about the United States that anybody wanted to talk about was of course the lunar landing.

Yet while Nixon willingly embraced Apollo, which he had inherited from Lyndon Johnson, he took his time in committing the nation to new initiatives, whether in space or in other areas of technology. Between 1960 and 1980, such civilian initiatives were largely a province of Democrats: Kennedy and Johnson with Apollo and NASA, Jimmy Carter with his ambitious synthetic-fuels program in the late 1970s. When George Shultz presented Nixon with NASA's plan for the space shuttle and urged him to accept it, he did.


The complete publication can be found here.

FFrench
Member

Posts: 3093
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 11-07-2005 02:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FFrench     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think that two different things are being talked about (and confused) here.

Nixon delighted in being in the center of Apollo 11 - an event already bought and paid for long before his tenure. His work with Borman, Collins, Anders and others leaves little doubt he held individual astronauts in very high regard, almost hero-worship.

He also did his part (via action or inaction is debatable) to allow budgets to stay so low that NASA entered the next decade without a viable manned space program, and unrealistically low funds to fund the shuttle. It may have been unavoidable given the political climate of the time, but that is what happened.

It would have been politically silly of him, as the President of the moment, not to have gloried in the success of Apollo 11, as it was happening with or without him. But it shouldn't be confused with what he actually did (or didn't) do in regards to future manned spaceflight policy. They are two completely separate subjects.

FF

[This message has been edited by FFrench (edited November 07, 2005).]

Glint
Member

Posts: 747
From: New Windsor, Maryland USA
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 11-07-2005 03:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glint   Click Here to Email Glint     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cfreeze79:
The worst enemy of the US manned space program was, and continues to be, the 'hippie' taxpayer perception of, "We need to stop wasting money on those 'pie-in-the-sky' projects with no direct benefits here on earth, and spend it on more important things, like the homeless, forgein aid, and other stuff."

Although coming from a non-presidential individual, the following 1996 quote typifies the attitude you referenced above:

"I believe the space station's potential benefits—which I recognize—do not stand the test. I believe we must terminate funding for this program. We cannot spend nearly $100 billion of the taxpayers money to fund the space station and then say that we do not have enough money to put cops on the beat, clean our environment, and ensure that our children get the best education possible." - U.S. Senator John Kerry

carmelo
Member

Posts: 792
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 11-07-2005 03:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes,Kerry is not John Kennedy and neither Lyndon Johnson.but we are not speaking about Richard Nixon?

carmelo
Member

Posts: 792
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 11-07-2005 04:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by FFrench:
I think that two different things are being talked about (and confused) here.

....he held individual astronauts in very high regard, almost hero-worship.

He also did his part (via action or inaction is debatable) to allow budgets to stay so low that NASA entered the next decade without a viable manned space program, and unrealistically low funds to fund the shuttle. It may have been unavoidable given the political climate of the time, but that is what happened.

FF

[This message has been edited by FFrench (edited November 07, 2005).]



Yes i completely agree.this is the point!

KC Stoever
Member

Posts: 1009
From: Denver, CO USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 11-07-2005 04:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KC Stoever   Click Here to Email KC Stoever     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Apropos of Richard Nixon, may I add this modest historical note about a rare ca 1959 photograph in my possession.

It shows Vice President Nixon and the Mercury astronauts on the steps of the Capitol.

In the back, l to r, are Carpenter, Schirra, Grissom, Slayton, and Glenn. Seated in the front row are Cooper, Nixon and Shepard--all three men holding a model of the Mercury Redstone (or something). Nixon, in profile, is looking directly at a serious Glenn, who looks down at the model rocket. Shepard, smiling, is looking at Nixon. Everyone but Cooper is dressed in a dark suit.

On the back of the framed photo, Rene Carpenter has written the following (the ellipses are in the original):

Uncertain of this date . . . believe it to be mid-to fall of 1959. President Eisenhower not feeling well and the V.P. substituted for the presentation. He was warm, charming, almost awestruck . . . guided them around . . . was reluctant to see them go. This was among the first of the "goodwill" trips to Congress for political favor--they detested the word astronaut and preferred pilot--as they quietly corrected the starstruck. Their hair still clipped to the scalp--in an early version of the hi fade--no new clothes yet--and John Glenn determined to wear his bow tie . . . Scott uneasy with the attention--but all on their best behavior!

The signed photo says: "To Malcolm S. Carpenter with best wishes for the exciting days ahead. From Richard Nixon.

[This message has been edited by KC Stoever (edited November 07, 2005).]

carmelo
Member

Posts: 792
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 11-07-2005 04:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
they were good times.50s and early 60s (untill 1965) a real golden age.

Scott
Member

Posts: 3293
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001

posted 11-07-2005 09:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Glint:
Although coming from a non-presidential individual, the following 1996 quote typifies the attitude you referenced above:


Let me know when the ISS ends up being of any benefit to anyone, aside from a make-work government welfare program for space companies.

Quoting politicians saying we should have axed the Shuttle and ISS decades ago only raises their stature in my mind.

Duke Of URL
Member

Posts: 1301
From: Syracuse, NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted 11-07-2005 09:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Duke Of URL   Click Here to Email Duke Of URL     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey! Nixon and Kennedy were pals until the 1960 race and Nixon never lost his affection for JFK. I never liked Nixon much but he was always gracious to Kennedy's family, especially after Dallas.

The space program broke down due to a failure of political will. NASA did a lousy job selling exploration as something of value.

Lots of things went wrong and they're clear in retrospect.

As a "hippie" (surprise surprise) I get PO'd at the thought we drerailed the space program. The "Why Should I" crowd - as in "Why should I pay for (the new library, a school, eyeglasses for grandma or a space program)..." is as anti-hippie and conservative as it comes.

Look at the state we're in with straights running the show. I defy you to tell me how it could be worse with hippies at the switch.

Why if I was President I'd make sure we got to Mars, even if I had to SMOKE our way there!

[This message has been edited by Duke Of URL (edited November 07, 2005).]

Hawkman
Member

Posts: 398
From: Union, New Jersey
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 11-08-2005 06:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hawkman   Click Here to Email Hawkman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Duke Of URL:

Why if I was President I'd make sure we got to Mars, even if I had to SMOKE our way there!


Well at least you admit to inhaling...unlike our 'hippie' President of the 90's!!

Scott
Member

Posts: 3293
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001

posted 11-08-2005 06:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkman:
Well at least you admit to inhaling...unlike our 'hippie' President of the 90's!!



Bring him back! Hell, bring back Warren G. Harding, for that matter. Anyone will do.

Glint
Member

Posts: 747
From: New Windsor, Maryland USA
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 11-08-2005 03:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glint   Click Here to Email Glint     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by carmelo:
Yes,Kerry is not John Kennedy and neither Lyndon Johnson.

Agreed. Although he had a wish to be president in spite of his past statements of wanting to kill space programs and drain their dollars into domestic programs.

quote:
but we are not speaking about Richard Nixon?

Actually, rather than Nixon we were talking about what you called "the worst enemy of US manned space program", above. And I was nominating candidates.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 27328
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 11-08-2005 04:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Glint:
Although he had a wish to be president in spite of his past statements of wanting to kill space programs and drain their dollars into domestic programs.
A position he changed in 1997, when he voted against killing the space station (a vote he repeated in 1998).

Lori Garver, former NASA associate administrator and space advisor to Kerry, explained that the votes against the station came early in the program. "At that time the space station was supposed to be an $8-billion program, and he didn’t believe it was going to be an $8-billion program." Once the station finally started getting built, she explained, "he did get on board." (Source: The Space Review)

Mike Isbell
Member

Posts: 342
From: Silver Spring, Maryland USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 11-08-2005 06:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Isbell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I recall that originally Apollo 16 was to be launched in the Fall of 1971 and Apollo 17 in the Spring of 1972 with Skylab begining in the Fall of 1972 (he Washington Post on April 5, 1970). With the accident on Apollo 13 and the four month delay that resulted, Apollo 16 and 17 were then rescedualed for the Winter and Summer of 1972. With the cancellation of the original Apoll0 15 and Apollo 19 in October of 1970, the new schedual for the J missions became Apollo 15 in July 1971, Apollo 16 in March 1972 and Apollo 17 in December 1972. I recall that NASA made a statement that a longer interval was being used between moon landings to allow the science teams more time to evaluate the scientific results of the landings. Apollo 16 was later delayed by a month until April 1972. I'm not certain if Skylab could have been ready in the fall of 1972 or needed be slipped until 1973 regardless of when the Apollo mission were flown. This is the first that I have heard that the Apollo 16 and 17 launch dates were affected by political considerations. Perhaps, I should note that the Moscow Summit occurred in May 1972, the month after Apollo 16. I don't know if the crew of Apollo 16 was invited to the summit, but the Apollo 16 crew is shown with the higher up's after Apollo-Soyuz was finalized.

Glint
Member

Posts: 747
From: New Windsor, Maryland USA
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 11-10-2005 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glint   Click Here to Email Glint     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KC Stoever:
Apropos of Richard Nixon, may I add this modest historical note about a rare ca 1959 photograph in my possession.

It shows Vice President Nixon and the Mercury astronauts on the steps of the Capitol.


Kris,

Thanks for sharing that. Is that photograph identical to the one printed in the book "Schirra's Space" (p. 104 in my copy)? Don't know if you have a copy of that book or not; your description is very similar.

quote:
In the back, l to r, are Carpenter, Schirra, Grissom, Slayton, and Glenn. Seated in the front row are Cooper, Nixon and Shepard--all three men holding a model of the Mercury Redstone (or something).

The model in the photo in the book looks kind of like the Pioneer 1 or 1b. Perhaps someone else might share a second opinion?

Glint
Member

Posts: 747
From: New Windsor, Maryland USA
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 11-10-2005 01:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glint   Click Here to Email Glint     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Glint:
Although he had a wish to be president in spite of his past statements of wanting to kill space programs and drain their dollars into domestic programs.

Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
A position he changed in 1997, when he voted against killing the space station (a vote he repeated in 1998).


So, Kerry was against the space station before he was for it?

[This message has been edited by Glint (edited November 10, 2005).]

KC Stoever
Member

Posts: 1009
From: Denver, CO USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 11-10-2005 02:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KC Stoever   Click Here to Email KC Stoever     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi, Glint,

Re: my Nixon and the Seven photo, I don't have a copy of Schirra's Space, so I don't know if it's the same.

Does anyone know how many VP Nixon + Mercury 7 pics were shot? I have seen just this one.

It would be nice to know what model rocket is shown in the photo. It does show the Mercury capsule atop--but no launch escape thingy.

Duke Of URL
Member

Posts: 1301
From: Syracuse, NY, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted 11-10-2005 10:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Duke Of URL   Click Here to Email Duke Of URL     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You can count on one thing about that picture of Nixon: whatever he was holding....he stole it.

Glint
Member

Posts: 747
From: New Windsor, Maryland USA
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 11-11-2005 06:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glint   Click Here to Email Glint     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KC Stoever:
Hi, Glint,

Re: my Nixon and the Seven photo, I don't have a copy of Schirra's Space, so I don't know if it's the same.


The photo in Schirra's book is undated. The caption simply says "The Mercury Seven with then-Vice President Richard M. Nixon."

In the background is the cap. dome and a flag flying from it on an angled flag pole. Grissom appears to be looking at Cooper who is dressed in a light colored suit and tie.

quote:
It would be nice to know what model rocket is shown in the photo. It does show the Mercury capsule atop--but no launch escape thingy.

This seems to be the only detail in which your photograph and the one in the book differs. The arrangement of the men, their dress, and descriptions of who's holding what and looking at who is exactly identical.

The model in the photograph in the book looks like at Atlas and on top there is an object that looks like a Mercury launch escape tower clearly visible against Shepard's dark suit.

But the payload seems odd and doesn't look like a typical Mercury capsule. It's hard to tell for sure because Shepard's hand is gripping the model at that point. For one thing the payload isn't dark like a Mercury capsule. But what else could it be?

Maybe it is an early engineering model before the Mercury spacecraft design had been finalized? It would be interesting to see the evolution of the capsule from 1959-1961.

On edit......

Found a photograph from a later date (1962) showing the same group (w/o R.M. Nixon) holding a much larger scaled model. Cooper has popped off the capsule and the escape tower.
http://www.what-means.com/encyclopedia/Image:Mg-S62-2704.jpg

As in the 1959 photograph the capsule is a very light color. And look, new suits and a second bow tied astronaut!

[This message has been edited by Glint (edited November 11, 2005).]

KC Stoever
Member

Posts: 1009
From: Denver, CO USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 11-11-2005 09:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KC Stoever   Click Here to Email KC Stoever     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks so much, Glint. I looked at the photo again (it hangs in the powder room) and I was wrong about the launch escape tower. One is shown on the model--but it's not to scale (very small), and it's white. (All the other details that you mention match exactly too. The same photo.)

The models I grew up with had impressive to-scale launch escape towers that were always orange. Jack Kinstler designed the thing, you know, when Gilruth insisted--and I mean insisted--that the Mercury astronaut have a safe way to jettison themselves in case of a launch gone awry.

Fun to see the 1962 pic.

carmelo
Member

Posts: 792
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 11-11-2005 09:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for carmelo   Click Here to Email carmelo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
1962 is sure an wrong date.I think 1959 or 60 is right.


This topic is 2 pages long:   1  2 

All times are CT (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | The Source for Space History & Artifacts

Copyright 1999-2012 collectSPACE.com All rights reserved.


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47a





advertisement