posted 04-22-2005 03:23 AM               

I am a new registrant to this forum. I recall from David Sahyler's Apollo: Lost & Forgotten Missions that Ed White was being moved over to AAP after Apollo 1, ostensibly because that project needed senior leadership at that time (mid-1967), but in reality because he wasn't seen as a contender for a lunar landing crew. I've never understood that; after a stand-out performance on GT-IV ("I feel red, white & blue all over"), you'd have thought he'd be a high profile candidate for an early landing crew. Instead, he found himself amongst the cadre of Schweickart, Bean (pre-CC Williams's death in 1967), Cunningham, Eisele etc, who (it seems) never found favour with Deke. Can anybody elaborate on why a "national hero" like White was to have been side-lined (had he lived)? Jeepers, National Geographic even published a 1966(?) edition showing White and kids swimming in the Johnson White House swimming pool, so he was definitely a golden boy. Surely Ed White was destined for better things than AAP?

posted 04-22-2005 09:41 AM               

The next point is that in 1966/1967 when Deke had marked Ed for AAP the whole AAP program was a lot more impressive than it turned out. There would be multiple workshops, earth orbital flights, lunar mapping missions and extended duration lunar landings. If Ed gets to be Commander of one of these, then that is a great opportunity and as a two flight veteran Ed would certain have been given a Command.

In 1967 mainstream Apollo was going to end once the landing was done and then AAP would really kick in. Deke had his Apollo CDRs and just wanted some guys in AAP, its a numbers game.

posted 04-24-2005 04:53 AM               

When examining which other "experienced" astros Deke may have tapped for AAP around 1966/7, the cupboard is actually very, very bare. There were few of the Original 7 left in 1967 (no Glenn or Carpenter (to speak of), Big Al and Deke himself still sidelined with no prospect - at that time - of a return to flight status, Grissom slated for the first landing, Schirra getting burned out onm early Apollo duties and Cooper's star on the wane.

Most of the "Next Nine" and some of the Group 3 astros were part of Deke's fabled early 1967 meeting (or was it memo?) from whom the early Apollo crews through to the G-mission landing would be drawn, so eliminate Young, Stafford, Conrad, Armstrong, Scott, McDivitt, Collins, Gordon etc etc etc.

On that analysis, Deke had very few senior astros on flight status that he could put onto AAP without tapping someone like White on the shoulder, or by diverting someone from an early Apollo crew, as he did with Walt Cunningham.

Does anybody have any theories on who else Deke could have tapped on the shoulder for AAP in late 1966/early 1967? Bean was his man for a while, until Deke relented to Pete Conrad's request to have him on the 12 crew after CC William's death. But other than White (dead by early 1967), Bean (involved as Apollo 9 backup by mid 1968) and Cunningham (not available until November 1968), who else could it have been? Is anyone aware of any 1966-ish plans Deke had to move other astros to AAP, other than those above?

posted 04-24-2005 10:54 AM               

Interesting points. I think a key thing to remember is that while AAP in 1966/1967 was far more ambitious than it ever turned out to be, it was still second fiddle to the mainline Apollo landing effort. Apollo was where the Glory was, Apollo was JFKs goal and Apollo was the funded, certain program. AAP was the next step, constantly changing, a little uncertain. While Deke had to allocate some astronauts to AAP, he also had to keep his best for Apollo. Once Apollo had been accumplished he could switch the more experienced and senior guys over if they wanted to go. While AAP was due to run alongside Apollo in the 1968/1969 frame, only a few AAP missions would have flown. Probably an Earth orbital or early workshop flight. For these purposes, guys like White, with experience were more than suitable. I think its also worth remembering that White, Cunningham, Chaffee et all, were not useless astronauts. They had just shaken out below (in the view of Deke) the truly exceptional ones who were marked for Apollo CDR slots.

I think if some early AAP missions had been flown then various combinations were possible, using astronauts not assigned to Apollo. If gets more difficult once Elliot See was killed since he might have been an AAP CDR. I think that See, White and maybe Eisele or Bean were potential CDRs. Cunningham, Chaffee and the 1966 guys could serve as CMPs with the 1965 Scientist astros obviously slotting into the SPT position. It might also have been possible to fly missions with only one experienced astronaut and two rookies, two science pilots, or perhaps using Kerwin as a CMP. There are lots of possible combinations.

posted 04-24-2005 11:00 AM               

There wasn't any problem with Ed White. The 1962 astronauts were probably the best all-round class NASA ever recruited. From nine highly qualified astronauts, McDivitt, Borman, Armstrong and Conrad really stood out above the rest. Lovell, Young, White and others didn't to such a great degree. As a result White wasn't considered for a CDR position on Apollo. He trained fine, worked well, it was just Deke's view. Being assigned to AAP was not that bad in 1966/1967. There were plenty of flight opportunities, including extended lunar flights. White was a good astronaut, AAP needed some astronauts, he was it.

posted 04-25-2005 12:09 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by J_Geenty:
Henry,

Interesting points. I think a key thing to remember is that while AAP in 1966/1967 was far more ambitious than it ever turned out to be, it was still second fiddle to the mainline Apollo landing effort. Apollo was where the Glory was, Apollo was JFKs goal and Apollo was the funded, certain program. AAP was the next step, constantly changing, a little uncertain.

---

posted 05-08-2005 08:26 AM               

I believe Deke Slayton made choices based on his opinion about who would do the best job. He was obviously dedicated to the program.

I think he actually referred to White as one of "the weaker guys" along with Chaffee. Apollo 1 was an important mission, sure. But it was also a straight orbital flight of a ship already declared obsolete.

This could have been a trial flight for White and Chaffee, as I believe Apollo 7 was for Eisele and Cunningham, and had either White or Chaffee distinguished himself their status might have improved.

I believe the Block-1 "Pilot" (Chaffee and Cunningham) was simply a warm body because that craft would never fly with a LM and Apollo was a triple-seater and needed three astronauts.

I don't think piloting skills entered into it. These guys didn't get selected because they COULDN'T fly. But, for example, Chaffee was known to micro-engineer problems and, it's said, his solutions sometimes made matters worse. This sort of trait might show early in a career and would not be a big confidence-booster, especially with a focused individual like Slayton.

(I read Grissom mentioned a tendency for White and Chaffee to be distracted by business interests but might have have tolerated it if it didn't affect training and Slayton would defer to him based on the close association with Al Shepard.)

Another reason could be to give Grissom total flexibility in his choice for LMP and CMP since he was a lock for the first landing flight.

My opinion is that Slayton considered White a "weaker guy" from a combination of factors INCLUDING his space walk. I think White was a bit too "Gee Whiz!" which rang the Carpenter Bell with NASA people Like Chris Kraft. (Designating White "weaker" might have been a rationalization or a fig leaf by Slayton to mitigate - I love that word! - taking a fairly public order while claiming complete authority to suggest crews.) Maybe Slayton felt it showed a lack of seriousness or a poor mind-set.

This is all speculation obviously and the principles are all gone. I hope I imparted the best motives to the people involved because they're what I assumed. But the short course is it's all hot gas.

posted 05-08-2005 08:06 PM               

Duke,

Thanks for clarifying these thoughts as your opinions, because I take exception to them. Not sure where you got your information, but I consider your thoughts an insult to Deke's professionalism. Deke chose the crews based on a variety of considerations, but in the end I have to believe his selections were based on a structured decision making method, but alas this is just my opinion. All the astronauts were capable of making any flight, and it's an injustice to refer to any of them as "weak". I do recall some of the astronauts in their autobiographies suggesting that some of their fellow astro's might not have been as good as others, but they all worked with each other for a long time, had a lot more insight than either your or me, and thus were justified in saying whatever they thought. Regarding Apollo 7, referring to Cunningham and Eisele as tagalongs is an injustice and misunderstanding of the complexity of the mission. It was the first manned Saturn flight, and first manned flight in the Apollo spacecraft, one that although re-engineered had taken the lives of 3 of our best just 18 months earlier. A successful Apollo 7 mission was critical to landing men on the moon before the decade was out. Apollo 7 was 100% successful and it had to be, or else additional checkout missions would most likely have been required. If Cunningham anbd Eisele had not been up to the task, I doubt they would have been on board. And all 3 men were necessary to make a successful mission.

posted 05-08-2005 09:52 PM               

quote:

---

Regarding Apollo 7, referring to Cunningham and Eisele as tagalongs is an injustice and misunderstanding of the complexity of the mission. It was the first manned Saturn flight, and first manned flight in the Apollo spacecraft, one that although re-engineered had taken the lives of 3 of our best just 18 months earlier. A successful Apollo 7 mission was critical to landing men on the moon before the decade was out. Apollo 7 was 100% successful and it had to be, or else additional checkout missions would most likely have been required. If Cunningham anbd Eisele had not been up to the task, I doubt they would have been on board. And all 3 men were necessary to make a successful mission.[/B]

---

Actually, in his autobiography, "Deke," Slayton did refer to Chaffee, Eisele, and I believe Cunningham as "the weaker guys." He said "weaker" not weak - clearly there is a difference between the two words. I believe he also said in the same book that if White had lived he would have sent him over to AAP (though I think he would have needed him for a lunar mission had the Apollo 1 crew flown successfully. See my next posting.) Slayton did have a system for selecting crews. Read or re-read "Deke" for more on how he selected crews.

posted 05-08-2005 10:18 PM               

3/1967 Apollo-Saturn 206/LM-1

7/1967 Apollo 2 LM-2 (p = McDivitt, Scott, Schweickart; b/u = Stafford, Young, Cernan)

11/9/67 AS-501 1st Saturn V test flight

Spring 1968 Apollo 3 LM-3 (p = Borman, Anders, Collins; b/u = Conrad, Gordon, Williams)

Summer/Fall 1968 Apollo 4 LM-4 (p = Schirra, Stafford, Cunningham; b/u = Cooper, White, Mitchell)

Spring 1969 Apollo 5 1st lunar landing (p = Grissom, Young, Cernan; b/u = Armstrong, Lovell, Aldrin)

Winter 1969 Apollo 6 (p = Conrad, Gordon, Bean; b/u = Scott, Worden, Haise)

Spring 1970 Apollo 7 (p = White, Roosa, Mitchell; b/u = Stafford, Mattingly, Irwin)

1971 Apollo 8 (p = Shepard, Duke, Mitchell; b/u = Chaffee, Evans, Engle)

1971 Apollo 9 (p = Armstrong, Lovell, Aldrin; b/u = Gordon, Brand, Schmitt)

1972 Apollo 10 (p = Scott, Worden, Haise; b/u = Roosa, Pogue, Carr)

1972 Apollo 11 last lunar landing (p = Stafford, Mattingly, Schmitt; b/u = Young, Swigert, Mitchell)

1974-76 Apollo 12, 13, 14 canceled

posted 05-09-2005 02:21 PM               

Thanks for sharing that! However, I think there are a few fairly major problems. The first is the early flight of the LM in 1967, it just would not have been ready in time. Even without the Apollo 1 fire, it is highly unlikely that the Saturn V or Lunar Module would have been ready any sooner than they actually were. This has relevance since the later flights knocks Mike Collins off whatever flight you assign him to.

Next problem is Wally Schirra. If Wally had to do the Apollo 1 backup job, it is doubtful if it he would have stuck around for another mission. Especially if it emerged that Gus was being groomed for the landing mission. Wally had been making noises about retiring since Gemini and would probably have gone in this setup. Another point is that at the time of the Apollo 1 fire, I believe that Tom Stafford had been added to the Apollo 3 crew to make it Borman-Stafford-Collins, following the death of Charlie Bassett. Anders was tied up on the Gemini 11 backup crew. Things might have changed, but that was the setup at the time.

Cunningham, White and Chaffee were all AAP bound after Apollo 1 without question. Gordon Cooper would not have been given another crew assignment under Apollo. Cooper only got Apollo 10 backup because there simply wasn't anyone else.

Finally a point about the actual missions to be flown. We can project out to about the first manned lunar mission, but nothing beyond. Given that Apollo was due to end after the first or second landing and then AAP really kick into gear, predicting crew assignments becomes almost impossible. Space Station missions were due before the later lunar landings.

When doing a "what if" during this period it is actually easier if you base one on no Apollo 1 fire and the original Block I Apollo 2 mission flying, since this gives the Schirra crew something to do. Another interesting one is plotting the crew assignments with See and Bassett still alive. Personnally, given the delays that occured with the Saturn V and LM, a think that is possible that NASA might have inserted a Block II test mission (essentially the Apollo 7 profile) in order to maintain momentum.

I don't mean to pour cold water on the fire, its just that trying to work out the actual post-Apollo 1 setup, if Apollo 1 works out, is almost impossible circa Jan 1967. It is possible to do before the Apollo 2 cancellation and the deats of See and Bassett, but by Jan 1967 things had gotten very difficult to work out, with everything open to change.

posted 05-10-2005 07:12 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by MCroft04:
[BI consider your thoughts an insult to Deke's professionalism.B]

---

You have me all wrong, Dude. I said assignments were made for reasons and explained what I thought they were. They were all performance-based, not personal assessments and strictly professional. I hope this clarifies my opinions and I apologize if I was vague.

Here's a nifty "What-If" for you guys: "What-If" Al Shepard had been returned to flight status at the same time Apollo 1 flew successfully? A Mercury astronaut would have been Commander for the first landing if available, according to "Deke!" There would have been plenty of time to train for the first landing, so who would have flown the mission? I don't think one would have gone under the command of the other.

My Grandmother (the one from Down South, not the one from Italy) used to charecterize someone with a sticky choice to make as "feeling like a Christian Scientist with appendicitus."

For what it's worth I think it would have been Grissom, but that's simply an opinion.

posted 05-10-2005 07:22 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by MCroft04:

[B Regarding Apollo 7, referring to Cunningham and Eisele as tagalongs is an injustice and misunderstanding of the complexity of the mission
[/B]

---

I didn't say Eisele and Cunningham were tagalongs. I said Cunningham's position as "pilot" in the future LM pilot's seat was extraneous on Apollo 7 because there was no LM to fly and the original Block 1 craft was never meant to fly with one. Under those circumstances it seems he was a warm body to have a 3rd man for testing the capabilities of the (3-man) Apollo systems. Eisele actually did some nav work and, as the guy in the CMP seat, did as much flying as Wally Schirra would allow. He certainly did some manouvering of the craft.

It's a big leap from that to "tagalong".

posted 05-10-2005 07:28 AM               

Grissom dropped out of Mercury the second his last debrief was over, and moved over to the embryonic Gemini program. He virtually specified the whole of the 'cockpit' design, and was certainly the most actively involved astronaut during the whole of the development period.

During the same time Shepard was serving as a Mercury backup and lobbying/training for his pet project, the MA-10 Freedom 7 II flight. Total involvement in Gemini - nil.

Who got the first Gemini crew assignment? Shepard, with Borman as his pilot.

I think the way Shepard and Slayton saw it was that whenever a queue formed Big Al was at the front of it. If he missed his shot through illness he could cut back in when he was well. Grissom's own pre-eminence after Shepard's grounding also reflects the same flight seniority = assignment priority rule.

I think Al would've been first to the moon, with his old Gemini sidekick Frank Borman carrying his golf clubs

Cheers,
Matt

posted 05-10-2005 02:05 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tom:
J:
Very interesting scenario if Apollo 1 actually flew a successfull mission.
However, you mention Mitchell as LMP on 2 Apollo flights...Apollo 7 and 8.
Also, I also notice that John Young is not included as CDR on any Lunar landing flights, and Ed White is. Just wondering, how you may have come to that conclusion since Young previously replaced White as prime CDR on Gemini 10.

[This message has been edited by Tom (edited May 10, 2005).]

---

Ooops! I told you this was not easy! Most of the thought processes took place 3 or 4 years ago. When I found my notes a few days ago I still had a few blank spots to fill in so obviously the thought process for this "what if" had long faded away when I looked at the notes again. I will have to reconsider the Mitchell selection for Apollo 8; obviously, that would never have happened. Actually, the only way anyone can really understand the alternate history scenario is to literally try to think it through independently starting from scratch using known elements of how crews were selected. It is a difficult puzzle to solve - at least it is for me. As for Young not flying as CDR on a lunar mission, remember he flew as a CMP on Apollo 10, so his selection as a CMP for the alternatate proposal fits. Rotating Young into a CDR spot two flights later in place of White in my "what if" is not an option. Rotating astronauts into an immediately upcoming mission never happened except at the end of the Apollo program when backup crews were selected for Apollo 16 and 17. (Theoretically, Young could have walked on the moon on two consecutive flights if the Apollo 17 crew been killed or was otherwise unable to fly.) I suppose, however, at first glance one could easily swap Young from my Apollo 5 CMP selection with White thus making White a CMP on the first lunar landing and Young the CDR of the third. However, note that White is in the role of backup CMP for Apollo 4. Obviously, he could not have trained simultaneously for that spot as well as fly Apollo 5 hence that one seemingly simple swap forces a cascade of changes. As for Young replacing White on Gemini 10 somehow meaning what you suggest, just remember White was bumped to Apollo before Young. Also, take a look at the Gemini 10 backup crew - Alan Bean and C.C. Williams. Bean was backup CDR yet Williams leapfroged ahead of him for the spot on Conrad's crew. It was only the death of Williams that left the slot open for Bean. Another point... Lovell flew as CDR on Gemini 12 and had flown twice yet was under the command of Borman on Apollo 8. Moreover, Young flew before Stafford in Gemini and both astronauts commanded their respective second Gemini flights yet Young was in the number two spot on Apollo 10 with Stafford in command. Also note, that as history actually happened, the Cooper, Eisiele, Mitchell Apollo 10 backup crew was broken up later. Only Mitchell flew. So in my alternate scheme having White bump up to CDR and Mitchell keep his slot in the normal rotation made sense to me. Slipping Eisele in place of White on the backup Apollo 4 crew does not make sense because he had no flight experience in the alternate history arrangement, so that was not an option in my view. In reality, Eisele did have flight experience which is partly why he was on the Apollo 10 backup crew. I really believe Slayton would have been forced to pull White out of AAP for some later role in Apollo assuming of course White had not resigned after flying Apollo 1. Reportedly, he wanted to go back to the USAF after his NASA career. Would he have stayed around for AAP not knowing if he would even fly again? However, the questions surrounding my original layout prompted to me rethink much of it. Once I got back into thinking about this whole "what if" I realized I had forgotten Fred Haise served as Apollo 8 b/u LMP. There is no reason his position would have changed in the alternate history scheme. Furthermore, other things came to mind to the point of making several changes that make more sense to me. Since the original topic of Ed White has drifted into this, I think an all new topic heading is needed and I will post the new "what if" under a new subject heading.

posted 05-10-2005 04:43 PM               

Duke,

posted 05-10-2005 09:28 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt T:
Can't see it myself, just look at Gemini.

I think Al would've been first to the moon, with his old Gemini sidekick Frank Borman carrying his golf clubs

Cheers,
Matt

---

Maybe, could be. I think with Shepard disqualified until Apollo and Grissom flying Gemini 3 and Apollo 1 he (Grissom) might have been considered "senior".

From his books and other sources it's clear Slayton had absolute confidence in both men. But Gus Grissom was his best friend (and Air Force).

I hate to say it, but reading between the lines of "Deke" I get the idea Slayton ran a bit scared around Shepard. I pick up a vibe that Slayton always thought he was the best pilot in the place unless Shepard was there. He still believed it, but maybe not 100%.

posted 05-10-2005 09:33 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by MCroft04:
All 3 men trained very hard to make the mission successful, and to call Walt a "warm body" is an injustice in my opinion.

---

Well, you're right. It was an accomplishment and it was demeaning to call him a warm body.

What the Ambassador MEANT to say was that he thought Cunningham's role was as much to stress the systems (life support etc) as operate the craft.

posted 05-10-2005 09:46 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt T:
Grissom's own pre-eminence after Shepard's grounding also reflects the same flight seniority = assignment priority rule.

I think Al would've been first to the moon, with his old Gemini sidekick Frank Borman carrying his golf clubs

Cheers,
Matt

---

I believe Grissom earned his status with hard work and not strictly seniority. Look at Gordo Cooper being passed over by Group 2 guys after Gemini 5. Wally Schirra was also a notoriously lax trainer but was more "management friendly" in that he didn't enter races while training for flights.

posted 05-11-2005 06:11 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by J_Geenty:
The first Gemini flight was originally going to be Al Shepard with Tom Stafford as his PLT. When Shepard was grounded it changed to Grissom and Borman. However Gus clearly didn't want to fly with Borman and got him replaced by John Young.

---

Why didn't Gus want to fly with Borman ?

posted 05-11-2005 09:58 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by East-Frisian:
Why didn't Gus want to fly with Borman ?

---

I think they were both the same guy in two seperate bodies. Seriously.

posted 05-12-2005 06:11 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by J_Geenty:
I agree with the previous two responces. If Deke had told Gus to just swallow it and fly with Frank I'm sure they would have managed, but it wouldn't have been pleasant. Look at the guys who eventually ended up flying with Gus and Frank. John Young and Jim Lovell were probably the two guys in the corps most likely to fly with anyone and do anything at the time. It was simply a better fit. I don't think there would have been much cabin chat if Gus and Frank flew together. Still, they might have at least survived the mission. If Gus had been forced to fly with Buzz Aldrin, there probably would have been blood in the spacecraft! ;-)

---

And so, we have the next question. It seems, that Gus didn't like to many of his colleages. "Blood in spacecraft" is probably to hard, but as I understand it, Buzz und Gus were no friends. Is it the same reason as for Gus and Frank. Are there more astronauts, who don't like each other?

posted 05-12-2005 01:31 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by East-Frisian:
Are there more astronauts, who don't like each other?

---

Gene Cernan's book has one particularly memorable example...

posted 05-12-2005 05:41 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by FFrench:
Gene Cernan's book has one particularly memorable example...

---

posted 05-12-2005 08:14 PM               

Colin--

It was in DEKE!

Grissom and Borman were just different -- Grissom had been in combat (very important inside the astro office), had suffered the disappointment of not making fighter test at Edwards, then recovered by being selected for Mercury. While he certainly was Deke's best buddy in the program, he was also highly-regarded by Gilruth and Walt Williams.

He was also, to put it mildly, a very aggressive pilot.

Borman missed combat, got a master's degree, taught at West Point, helped create the ARPS program, and was, by all accounts, a very conservative pilot.

They would have argued _everything_ in the months of training, something Grissom realized very quickly, hence the change.

posted 05-13-2005 04:04 PM            

1) Schirra retires after Apollo 2 is cancelled, knowing that he's not in line for a landing. This gets Armstrong into the rotation, since he was the most qualified CDR not among the "first 18" assigned. Neil and Buzz fly the dress rehearsal on Apollo 4.

2) Collins' bone spur causes him to flip with Gordon for Apollo 3. The LM still isn't ready in time, so 3 flies before 2. This gets Mike onto the first landing as CMP.

3) If Deke's "back 1, skip 2, fly 1" rotation stays in effect. Grissom might have made the 2nd or 3rd landing; I say he and Deke hedged their bets since the first landing had "less than a 50/50 chance of mission success," by their estimation. When the first landing succeeds, Gus retires without flying again.

4) Conrad gets Bean on his crew after CC dies. He also tries and fails to get Dick Gordon as well. Despite Deke's insistence that the key flights have all-flown crews. Pete's insistence (and the unparalleled chemistry between Al & Pete) win the day, and good ol' Al Bean becomes the 2nd man on the moon.

5) I believe Deke felt strongly enough about Roger to keep him in the rotation. He would have gotten a later CDR assignment, and walked on the moon. God bless the crew of Apollo 1.

5) I ran the prime crews out to "Apollo 13 (19)" when they would have run out of qualified CDRs anyways. Ed White gets the first Skylab CDR, followed by Conrad & Bean. Jerry Carr walks on the moon! Had it gone this far, they probably would have sent another scientist, though. I filled in the remaining Skylab and ASTP slots with unflowns who had at least served as Capcoms. These guys went on to Shuttle, of course.

PRIME BACKUP
(post-flight assignment in brackets)
Apollo 1 (Earth Orbit) – 2nd flight cancelled
Grissom Schirra (ret)
White (to AAP) Eisele (deposed)
Chaffee Cunningham (to AAP)

Apollo 3 (8) lunar orbit
Borman (ret) Conrad
Gordon Collins
Anders (ret) Williams

Apollo 2 (9) – LM test
McDivitt (ASPO) Stafford
Scott Young
Schweickart(AAP)Cernan

Apollo 4 (10)
Armstrong (ret) Grissom (ret)
Lovell Mattingly
Aldrin (ret) Chaffee

Apollo 5 (11) –first landing
Conrad (AAP) Cooper (ret)
Collins (ret) Gordon
Bean (AAP) Mitchell

Apollo 6 (12)
Stafford (ASTP) Scott
Young Worden
Cernan Irwin

Apollo 7 (13) - accident
Chaffee (ret) Lovell
Mattingly Swigert
Duke Haise

Apollo 8 (14)
Shepard (ret) Gordon
Roosa Brand
Mitchell Schmitt

Apollo 9 (15)
Scott (ret) Young
Worden Engle
Irwin Weitz

Apollo 10 (16)
Lovell (ret) Cernan
Swigert Carr
Haise Evans

Apollo 11 (17)
Gordon (ret)
Brand
Schmitt

Apollo 12 (18)
Young (Shuttle)
Engle (Shuttle)
Weitz

Apollo 13 (19)
Cernan
Evans
Carr

Skylab 1
White
Lousma
Kerwin

Skylab 2
Conrad
Pogue
Garriott

Skylab 3
Bean
McCandless
Gibson

ASTP
Stafford
Slayton
Fullerton

Your comments are welcome!

posted 05-13-2005 09:51 PM               

... "Regarding your question about astronaut crew assignments, the Chief of the Astronaut Office and myself normally work together in establishing a plan for crew assignments. As you might imagine we get many unsolicited recommendations, but these are treated like most free advice."

"We build and train a number of crews simultaneously, since backup crews must be equivalent to prime crews; and it is necessary to have about six crews in training for specific missions at any given time. The criteria as to which crew flies which mission is mostly a function of how the program evolves. In building a group of crews we do assign individuals to specific positions and then combine them into crews. We do not consider prior friendship too significant in assigning crews. Our primary aim is to match people who are compatible and end up with a number of balanced crews from a technical point of view."

These are Deke's own words summarizing his philosophy. It is interesting that he seeks compatibility but that friendship is not an important criteria

David Chudwin M.D.

posted 05-14-2005 10:57 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt T:
I think the way Shepard and Slayton saw it was that whenever a queue formed Big Al was at the front of it.

---

Matt's point here is well taken. Al Shepard lobbied assiduously for an MA-10 flight that Gilruth was always determined would never take place (see Gilruth NASM interviews and WE SEVEN). Mercury was over.

Grissom, by way of contrast, had his head entirely in Gemini.

Recall too that it was Al Shepard who suggested--and then lobbied Carpenter, Cooper, Glenn, Grissom, and Schirra individually--in arranging Deke Slayton's appointment as the powerful head of astronaut activities.

Where is that wonderful photo, ca. 1963, of the Seven at the Cape, with an exultant Al at the left and Slayton, on the right, appearing like the cat who'd just swallowed the canary. In the background? A mockup Apollo lunar module (the future) and a flown Mercury capsule (the past).

And why was Al smiling? He was first in line, and everyone knew it.

Although now only a superannuated and honorary astronaut, Slayton held a powerful position because of Al's intevention. Slayton was accordingly both grateful and beholden to Shepard. Together they would rule the roost.

Interesting that none of the posters upthread has mentioned the role played by Chris Kraft in crew selection. In Flight, Kraft maintains he had sign-off authority on Gemini and Apollo crews. I suspect this is true (or became increasingly true as Kraft gained bureaucratic heft and influence), although so much of what Kraft and maintains in the memoir he wrote with Schefter is so wildly megalomaniacal, it's hard to know what to believe!