posted 05-24-2005 01:32 PM               

He stayed in a desk bound role (that must have frequently been torture to some part of him) for over a decade. Even after he got his long awaited flight he stuck on in for the Shuttle, only finally quitting when it was made clear to him that he wouldn't fly in space again.

Maybe early flights would have taken that drive away, but he seems to have always been in aviation for the long game.

Cheers,
Matt

posted 05-24-2005 03:27 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
For Kris, re John Glenn and the USMC:

Thanks for the factual correction

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Happens to me all the time here on cS, typing on the fly. In one post, I think I had Carpenter being picked up after MA-7 by the USS Hornet, when of course it was the Intrepid.

Best,

Kris

posted 05-24-2005 03:30 PM               

I have no doubt that, if never grounded, he would have been a strong Mercury/Gemini/Apollo astronaut. he would have walked on the Moon and *maybe" flown the Shuttle.

posted 05-24-2005 03:33 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:

German AA scared Deke. I don't know that much else did.

Michael Cassutt

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Well, Mr. C, you knew the man and I didn't, so I'll accept your input on this.

posted 05-25-2005 10:40 AM               

"Deke was Deke," she said. She mentioned his "assuredness." And what follows are her characterizations, for Project Mercury through 1967. He was authentic. He was who he appeared to be. He spoke straight at you. Very direct, very clear areas, straight lines on good and bad. "This isn't right," Deke would say, about ethically dubious situations, like the offer of freebie houses by a Houston developer.

His assuredness could sometimes become obstinacy, as in the case of the stick-and-rudder design issue, versus the three-axis control stick. He, along with Gus, was most vocal about the science experiments.

After his grounding, however, Deke became "angrier," Rene recalls, and more protective of his "limited turf" and more intent on acquiring power that would enable him to become more competitive with elements, like the medical community, that had in his view "punished" him. He became more guarded.

Deke also had the greatest sympathy vote.

posted 05-25-2005 12:28 PM               

Al, along with Wally, was the greatest practitioner of what at the time was called "gamesmanship" (really "one-upsmanship")--so-called because of an enormously influential book by that name, which was published about 50 years ago.

See
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1559212233/102-2555930-8432155?v=glance.

And Al would use gamesmanship to gain psychological advantage in group situations. With his ring-knocker (Academy) status, {this is Rene talking] and his mastery of East Coast upper-class code, Al, with his Mayflower ancestors, could undercut particulary a working-class Tidewater kid Kraft in group settings. Why was Kraft vulnerable? Because of the class chip on his shoulder.

An example of a gamer's technique? "Oh. I've confused you, I see. My fault entirely."

[This message has been edited by KC Stoever (edited May 25, 2005).]

posted 05-25-2005 05:34 PM               

I got a kick out of it because (along with my Mother's family off the boat from Idly) my Old Man's tribe had been here since forever. So long, in fact, one of my direct ancestors was the first man hung in North Carolina.

posted 05-25-2005 05:42 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by KC Stoever:
My mom's here for a visit, so I put the Deke question to her.

He, along with Gus, was most vocal about the science experiments.

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I thought Wally Schirra had the biggest beef with scientific experiments. My recollection is that he lost his mind on Apollo 7 over this.

(Speaking of losing one's mind, one of my Ex-Wives is a serious motorhead and I have to ask her advice about the fuel pump off a 1960 Corvair I'm fixing. I'm really stuck, if anybody can help, because I'd rather stick bamboo shoots under my fingernails than ask her an automotive question.

The so-and-so isn't out-putting - there's gas at the fuel line - but if I loosen the cover enough for the diaphragm to move it leaks like a horse trader's mule. I don't want to use gasket putty if it's avoidable.

I sounded like a charecter on "Deadwood" earlier.)

posted 05-25-2005 05:49 PM               

Rene Carpenter thought Deke and Gus were most vocal about their dislike (although Dr. Ruff says Deke was really interested in the psych research, very "positive").

posted 05-25-2005 06:30 PM               

What happens. as everybody knows, in highly competitive settings is that you use whatever you have to get ahead, and perceptions and how these are deployed, as J_Geenty has argued upthread, can be used to great effect. Depends on how credulous your rivals are, or how transparent the effort.

So Al uses the perception of his pedigree and other status-related advantages to his advantage. Deke used perceptions about Edwards the same way. Carpenter used perceptions about his physical condition (and his Panic Box performance scores) to similar effect. Everyone did it and does it. You use what you have--real assets and perceived ones too.

Interesting that Tom Wolfe, whose entire scholarly and literary career has been devoted to the role of status, and perceived status, in American society, was fascinated by this group of men, whose most obvious sign of status (before the Corvettes and Cobras) was their wristwatch!

posted 05-25-2005 07:23 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by KC Stoever:
Oh, and . . .

Interesting that Tom Wolfe, whose entire scholarly and literary career has been devoted to the role of status, and perceived status, in American society, was fascinated by this group of men, whose most obvious sign of status (before the Corvettes and Cobras) was their wristwatch!

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Wolfe and Norman Mailer once got into a slap-fight because Mailer made a remark about the white suit gag Wolfe used.

Wolfe replied, "It's the lead dog that gets bitten in the ass." Mailer said, "You aren't lead dog just because your ass is bleeding."

Very funny. But I never cared for Tom Wolfe much (Elmore Leonard either, for that matter) and I really didn't care for "The Right Stuff". I thought he got a lot of facts wrong, and I'm speaking of the book. I thought the movie was a travesty on any number of levels.

If anybody cares, try reading "Post Office" or "Factotum" by Charles Bukowski, or watch "Barfly" which is taken from both. these are all about status in America - in the sense of having none whatsoever.

posted 05-25-2005 07:55 PM               

quote:

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these are all about status in America - in the sense of having none whatsoever.

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Bukowski. I should post less and read more--fiction.

posted 05-25-2005 09:24 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by KC Stoever:

Bukowski. I should post less and read more--fiction.

[/B]

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Actually, they're quasi-fiction. One is about the 12 years he spent as a postal clerk (The first line in the book is, "It began as a mistake.") and the other was about all the crummy jobs he had.

Be careful....it's the low-life at its most. I think that stuff is funny, myself, having grown up that way. To the extent I grew up at all, of course.

posted 05-27-2005 02:31 PM               

Phil

posted 05-27-2005 09:22 PM               

<Bukowski. I should post less and read more--fiction.

...Only after MISSING MAN and RED MOON by that Cassutt guy. [Who happens to like Bukowski a lot... John Fante, too, for fans of gritty L.A. fiction....]

PS-- Thanks for posting your mom's take on Deke. Sounds right to me, though I only met him in 1991.

posted 05-28-2005 03:23 PM               

"White had been the first person I met when I came to the squadron... He had a fair, almost milky complexion and reddish hair. An athlete, a hurdler, you see his face on many campuses, idealist, aglow. He was an excellent pilot, acknowledged as such by those implacable judges, the ground crews...."

Ed White, of course. (Thus returning this thread to its original subject. )

posted 05-28-2005 04:38 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
....and just to bring this discussion full circle:

"White had been the first person I met when I came to the squadron... He had a fair, almost milky complexion and reddish hair. An athlete, a hurdler, you see his face on many campuses, idealist, aglow. He was an excellent pilot, acknowledged as such by those implacable judges, the ground crews...."

Ed White, of course. (Thus returning this thread to its original subject. )

Michael Cassutt

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What a fitting (and on-topic!) post for Memorial Day Weekend.

Coincidentally, Salter was in the Denver Post today, along with a bunch of other Colorado writers (Salter lives part time in Aspen) recommending summer reading. His Burning the Days was listed under his name. Will HAVE to read . . .

Salter's pick for the summer? Love, a collection of stories by the late Hungarian writer Tibor Dery.

posted 05-31-2005 03:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Cassutt:
...Only after MISSING MAN and RED MOON by that Cassutt guy.

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I'll second that plug. For those participating and reading these threads, with an evident interest in some of the behind-the-scenes politics of astronaut selection, these two books are a MUST. They are fiction novels, but only I think because Mike would have had a ton of lawsuits if he had included the real names! There are few people in the world who know the real closed -door politics of both NASA and the Russian program like Mike, and even fewer willing to share it. In these exciting thrillers, Mike adds detail on the various intrigues and in-fights in the agencies that the public rarely hears about. Enjoy the well-written, suspenseful books as fiction, but also take the time to read between the lines for a real insight into the working of the cosmonaut and astronaut offices.

Can you tell I enjoyed reading them?!?

Francis.