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Author
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Topic: 221650380577: Young photo with Novaspace COA
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mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-05-2015 07:29 PM
   
A fellow collector recently pointed out this auction to me, which I thought would be appropriate for discussion here at collectSPACE. On eBay, there is currently a John Young jumping salute photo up for sale. Below are some of the images provided with the auction: 
As many collectors are already aware, John Young has had some medical issues in recent years which have severely limited his ability to sign. Despite that, Young has reportedly done some private signings with collectors and dealers... and some of those more-recent signatures have since made their way into the marketplace. The problem with those recent signatures is that they are quite variable, some with more shakiness than others. What is concerning about the item currently on eBay is that, while it appears to mimic the shaky signatures seen in other apparently-authentic examples, it also comes with an Astronaut Central (aka Novaspace) COA. To the best of my recollection, Young hasn't done a paid signing with Novaspace since his medical problems arose. Of course, that doesn't preclude Young from potentially signing a limited number of items for Novaspace through the mail, but I haven't heard of that occurring, nor have I seen such items advertised on their website. All of this leads one to believe the item on eBay is one of the following: - An authentic item signed for Novaspace/Astronaut Central
- An authentic item paired with an Astronaut Central COA from another item
- A clever forgery taking advantage of Young's current condition, while using an Astronaut Central COA (or a reproduction of one) to lure buyers into a false sense of security.
Since Novaspace/Astronaut Central staff read these forums, perhaps they can weigh in to discuss whether they believe the COA is real and whether or not they have had a signing with Young since 2011.If this signature is a forgery, it clearly illustrates the hazards of buying a recent examples of Young's "shaky" signature (for lack of a better term). The apparent variability of his signature in the past couple of years has opened the door for clever forgers to take advantage of the situation. Also, it demonstrates how COAs that do not contain a photo (or a description) of the signed item are open for abuse and misrepresentation by less-than-honest sellers. If nothing else, it's a good reminder to do your homework before buying! |
ilovespace
unregistered
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posted 01-05-2015 08:00 PM
I purchased a couple of these from Sally while they were still in stock.In fact it will come with a receipt from Astronaut Central. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-06-2015 02:08 AM
Since posting earlier in the evening, I noticed that the photos included with the auction have changed, and this is now the signature being sold... It does appear the seller's other items currently up for sale are authentic. And it may be true that these Youngs are also authentic. It would just help to know if they were signed through Novaspace or not, so the legitimacy of the COA can be determined. |
Steve Zarelli
Member Posts: 731
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 01-06-2015 08:16 AM
Thanks Mark for starting this interesting topic.
I have noted the emergence of this John Young signature style on photos in the past 6 – 9 months. I have seen it primarily on eBay; however, this is the first time I’ve seen one accompanied by a Novaspace COA.I, too, heard the rumors of a John Young private signing last year, and in my opinion, these apparently infirm signatures could be the product of that. However, I could not rule out the possibility this style could also be a clever forgery. I have received a few of these to professionally review, and my opinion to date has been “no opinion.” I can’t approve something just because it “might” be authentic. If these were from a previous Novaspace signing, it is puzzling why they only seem to have emerged in the past year. Certainly we would have seen many more examples over the past few years if these were done at the last known Novaspace signing in 2011. I am curious to see if Novaspace can confirm a more recent signing with John Young. If not, where are they coming from? One would think if someone else was able to arrange a private signing with John Young they would have taken steps to properly document it for authenticity reasons. |
ilovespace
unregistered
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posted 01-06-2015 08:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
...this is now the signature being sold
This is the one that is for sale. As I mentioned last night, I had purchased a couple of these and this is the one that I have left and is listed. quote:
Originally posted by Steve Zarelli:
I, too, heard the rumors of a John Young private signing last year...
I purchased my Youngs from Astronaut Central a few years ago, not last year if that helps. I need to find the paperwork, but it was more than 2 to 3 years ago I believe. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 01-06-2015 09:43 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
Also, it demonstrates how COAs that do not contain a photo (or a description) of the signed item are open for abuse and misrepresentation by less-than-honest sellers.
Interesting thread, Mark - and, yes I've always wondered about the value of "unlinked" CoAs that are not only open to abuse, but don't even provide any association with the item. I guess that's why you need to buy the photo CD.  |
NovaRob
Member Posts: 242
From: Tucson, Arizona, USA
Registered: Nov 2008
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posted 01-06-2015 02:18 PM
I looked through our records at Astronaut Central/Novaspace, and we have not had a signing with John Young, either mail-in or for stock items, since the mail-in signing in 2011. We sold regular stock items for a few years after that until they ran out, and we had some unique items (special images, etc.) and "seconds" (with errors like pen skips, poor writing, dents, etc.) that we have been selling on and off since then.The COA in the original posted photo definitely looks like one of ours that would have been sent with a stock item or a "second". The COAs we use for items signed for customers during a mail-in signing are a different style, but I don't think the seller is saying these were purchased as part of a mail-in. The seller's Astronaut Central/Novaspace receipts will show when it was purchased, and the stock number, if it was a stock item. I personally cannot remember every signature that we've sold, but I will say that the faint upstroke at the beginning of the "J" in both photos is something that Young is prone to make, and that we have seen on several photos during his signings. |
ilovespace
unregistered
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posted 01-06-2015 06:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by NovaRob:
The seller's Astronaut Central/Novaspace receipts will show when it was purchased, and the stock number, if it was a stock item.
I found some of my receipts from you for my John Young purchases. I have one from July 20, 2012 Invoice #1722050 and one from July 24, 2012 Invoice #172062. There is also another... |
NovaRob
Member Posts: 242
From: Tucson, Arizona, USA
Registered: Nov 2008
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posted 01-06-2015 07:13 PM
At the seller's (ilovespace) request, I have reviewed all of our invoices for items that he bought from us at Novaspace/Astronaut Central, and with his permission, I confirm that he bought two 8x10 John Young Jump Salute signed photos, stock number 3137P, from us; one on Invoice #172050 on July 20, 2012, and one on Invoice #172062 on July 24, 2012. These are the only two John Young Jump Salute photos that he bought directly from us.We would not normally research and post this information, for we could easily spend the rest of our days checking on each and every item that was posted for sale by someone, but this seems to be a special case that we should answer. Perhaps in future if there is a question about where an item came from, it would be more expedient for the potential buyer to ask the seller for a copy of the invoice (realizing that the prices will probably be blanked out). |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-06-2015 07:36 PM
A question for Rob...did Novaspace ever stock John Young jumping salute photos with white borders (like the first example at the top of this thread)? From my recollection, all of the modern photo prints stocked by Novaspace were without white borders.Just curious... |
ilovespace
unregistered
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posted 01-06-2015 07:56 PM
The photo does not have a white border. It is on a white photo board and cropped to help it stand out. Thanks for helping me sell my Young. I will ask the new buyer to get in touch with you to verify the condition of the photo. Have a nice night. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-06-2015 08:24 PM
When atypical signatures appear in the marketplace, the wisest approach is to do as much research as possible... dotting every "i" and crossing every "t," so to speak.Personally, I have decided that these style of shaky Young signatures are not worth an investment of my own money, because they will always be problematic. This is especially true if they lack a COA that directly ties them to a specific signing (or better yet, includes an image of the signed item directly on the COA). Ultimately, each buyer must decide where their own comfort level lies with these atypical signatures. |
ilovespace
unregistered
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posted 01-06-2015 08:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
Ultimately, each buyer must decide where their own comfort level lies with these atypical signatures.
Agreed. I am sending you an email. | |
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