Posts: 235
From: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Registered: Jan 2011

posted 11-18-2011 06:32 PM               

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At first glance, does it get much better than this? eBay item: 270855143460. Flown US flag, silver thread patch, autographed photo, great provenance - assuming this is the George Hage, Deputy Director of the Apollo program.

The only downside I can see, other than the usual US buyers only caveat, is the fact that the seller has zero feedback. Anyone willing to gamble what could amount to a considerable sum on a sellers first sale?

It strikes me that, if ever an item recommended itself to be sold at a specialised space auction house, surely this is it?

Posts: 1933
From: Fairfax, VA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 11-18-2011 07:16 PM               

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I can certainly understand one's surprise at seeing an eBay seller appear out of nowhere with an item worth thousands of dollars. However, I think it's possible for someone to come into possession of something like this and not want to wait for the next space auction, or even know of their existence. They figure a few good photos on eBay and hopefully the right people will immediately see it. Looks like that's happened in this case.

(It looks good to me. I've never seen this presentation for an Apollo 15 flag, but it was being given to a specific someone the astronauts appreciated.)

Posts: 1082
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008

posted 11-19-2011 03:26 AM               

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I have been communicating with this seller from nearly when he listed this presentation piece. He had no real idea of what he had and the possible historical or money value of this item.

I asked him to add the three extra close-up images of the three constituent parts of this piece. (Which you can now see). I have also asked him if he has any paperwork to add to the provenance and history of this item. (He has answer that question now, No Paperwork).

It's certainly attracted a lot of attention with 20 bids from 10 bidders so far. It's so far reached $825.00 with over 6 days still to run. We are looking at a possible $1,000 to $2,000 sale price.

Up-date:
This presentation piece now stands at $910.23 with 21 bids from 11 bidders.

Posts: 159
From: Peoria, AZ United States
Registered: Aug 2011

Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010

Posts: 235
From: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Registered: Jan 2011

posted 11-19-2011 11:07 AM               

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Judging by the sellers name (assistanceleaguerenosparks) and the charitable organisation Assistance League of Reno-Sparks, it would appear that this may have been a donated item so the money raised will, hopefully, be going to a worthy cause.

However, I do find it amazing that items of such importance to recent American, if not global, history can be sold with such indifference by sellers seemingly unconcerned as to their worth not only financially but as an historic artifact in itself.

We Brits have had to go to some extraordinary lengths to prevent the dispersal of many important pieces of memorabilia from the golden age of Antarctic exploration and, to me, this item is of no less historical significance than one of Scott's Sledging Flags, a Ponting Glass Plate or Frank Wilds Polar Medal. Lets hope it goes to a good home.

Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 11-19-2011 11:46 AM               

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Would JSA or PSA authentication add anything to this? I'm not aware that they have any specialist knowledge of astronaut signatures and have seen items with their authentication that are obvious forgeries or secretarials.

In terms of the flag, all the items are part of a single presentation with a windowed mat laid over the top.

The style of presentation is classic Apollo 15 and the label under the flag is the one they used on all such presentation pieces.

Posts: 159
From: Peoria, AZ United States
Registered: Aug 2011

Posts: 1082
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008

Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 11-19-2011 02:58 PM               

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quote:

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Originally posted by Beau08:
How would propose one authenticates autographs? Are you saying you can authenticate a signature via a scan on the internet better than JSA or PSA labs?

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I think there's a mistaken belief by some that unless they have some third party authenticate the autographs, then they are taking a risk. I would suggest the real risk is putting your faith in a third-party service to the point that you trust their judgement over your own.

While there's nothing wrong with asking for help from others — this forum exists for that very purpose — if you aren't confident enough to authenticate the autographs for yourself, then it may be a sign that you are not ready to own the item. Educate yourself first, then buy. There will always be future opportunities.

Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010

Posts: 1255
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 11-19-2011 04:31 PM               

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I agree with Chris (spacedout). The presentation is a classic NASA Apollo era presentation. The caption under the flag is the standard font used by the Scheduling Office at NASA.

Also, this presentation is to George Page, who was the Chief of Spacecraft Operations during the Gemini and Apollo Era and ended his NASA career as the Deputy Director of KSC.

That is a good piece and is probably one of the few US flags flown in the NASA OFK on the Apollo 15 mission.

Posts: 674
From: Bloomington, Illinois, USA
Registered: May 2005

Posts: 1255
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 11-19-2011 05:43 PM               

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Thanks JL. It looked like Page to me. Then again, my eyes are failing me in my old age.

I have two such presentations from two different Apollo missions and the typed caption for the flag matches both of mine.

If I didn't have an Apollo 15 flag, then I would take a shot at this one.

Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 11-19-2011 07:12 PM               

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This presentation is also dated, just over two months after the crew's return from the Apollo 15 mission.

Very nice item.

By the way, George Hage is shown in the "1968" episode of From the Earth to the Moon, portrayed by Steve Zurk.

Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 11-19-2011 08:21 PM               

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I am unsure why the seller is even contacted on this. I have sold flown flags before and it amazes me the amount of messages I receive from people trying to convince me to do unethical practices or question an items authenticity.

If you don't like it or feel comfortable with it, don't buy it. It's really simple.

Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 11-19-2011 08:40 PM               

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I guess I don't understand what your objection would be as a seller to having people ask about the provenance of an item. Quite frankly, if this flag came with a notarized letter from George Hage stating that it was from his personal collection, then that might change someone's thought process on whether or not to buy it, don't you think? (Sometimes sellers forget to mention stuff like that, like the time I bought an uninscribed Armstrong WSS litho that just happened to also be accompanied by the original mailing envelope from NASA, the NASA brochures that came in the package, and the letter from Armstrong's secretary).

In this case, I think there might be some initial concern because the presentation is not the more common flag-atached-to-a-presentation certificate. At first glance, I thought it was possible that was the case with this item, but on closer inspection the item is far too authentic-looking to have been done by an unskilled forger.

For what it's worth, I did not inquire with the seller regarding this item. However, as an example, I contacted a seller prior to bidding on an Apollo 11 VIP launch badge. The seller informed me it belonged to his Dad, who was a physicist at NASA Lewis -- and he agreed to send along a photograph of his Dad from his NASA days if I won the auction. For me, having that connection makes the item more interesting.

Posts: 1933
From: Fairfax, VA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 11-19-2011 08:52 PM               

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quote:

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Originally posted by capoetc:
Sometimes sellers forget to mention stuff like that,

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I'll second that. I have made it almost a regular habit to ask sellers if there is any more documentation/provenance before I bid, and it's amazing how frequently there is something else (transmittal letters, photos, etc.) they are happy to include. (I often see these details added to the eBay listing soon after my inquiry makes the seller realize they are selling points!)

Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 11-19-2011 10:42 PM               

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I don't think a notarized letter or a JSA/PSA letter or any of those are even necessary. If you have seen similar items (sold before on eBay or the auction houses) then you know this is authentic.

If I walk into a car lot and I don't trust the dealer or the car then I might as well pass and go somewhere else. Show me the carfax.

Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010

Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005

Posts: 1745
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 11-20-2011 10:48 AM               

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quote:

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Originally posted by fredtrav:
I see nothing wrong, and certainly nothing unethical, about asking a seller if he has any provenance on an item, especially on a high dollar item.

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I've noticed that those involved in antiquities call objects for sale without provenance, "orphans."

In our hobby, probably most objects are sold without any provenance, or information provided, so probably most of our collections are filled with material that could be referred to as "orphans."

Asking for provenance from dealers and auctioneers is a right of any collector and no seller should be offended by being asked.

Early in our hobby, dealers and auctions rarely provided any information on what they were selling and collectors just generally accepted what was offered with few questions asked, trusting the seller's integrity and knowledge; that didn't always prove to be a good idea.

Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 11-20-2011 11:59 AM               

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I didn't say that asking for provenance was unethical. Unethical was asking me to end the auction to sell privately either for a low or a high price. Or even asking to end it early to cosign it to an auction house. That is unethical.

Messaging a seller to question authenticity is annoying and uncalled for as the questioning maybe taken as an accusation (forging signatures, etc when sometimes the seller may not even know what the heck they are selling). Asking for provenance and background info is also something different. If you read the "ask seller a question", some of the questions asked are just funny. I mean, if you are uncomfortable with the item, why would you a) bid on it and/or b) why even contact the seller? Move on and bid on something else that you do feel comfortable with.

As I stated earlier, this seems to be an authentic Apollo 15 flown flag and if I had the money, believe me, I would win it in a heartbeat. I am all for more background info and additional items that may pertain to the history, but that is DIFFERENT than questioning authenticity directly with the seller. I think it's great to do it here but not to the seller's face.

As for the carfax, I am sure that if I rammed my car against the wall and I took care of all the repairs myself without taking it to any dealer or insurance, my modifications and damage would not appear on that carfax report. That's why I said that; think outside the box fellas.

Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010

posted 11-20-2011 12:39 PM               

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I agree asking a buyer to end an auction early, especially after bids have been placed on it, is unethical in most cases. If no bids have been placed, I don't see it as much of a problem. The seller has the right to say no, to take your offer, or to tell you what he wants for the item. I have done this once with a seller on eBay. the item had been up for several days with no bids. I messaged the seller asking about a buy it now price. He told me he would add a buy it now option at a certain price. I told him that it was too low and I was willing to pay a higher price. When he added the buy it now option, it was at a price between his idea of what he wanted and the higher price I was willing to pay. I bought it. I see nothing unethical in this.

Messaging a seller about the authenticity of an item should not be annoying. It is part of selling. I have had people question items I have been selling. I answer their questions as honestly and accurately as I can and then it is up to them to decide if they want it.

I have never messaged a seller and accused him of forgery. I have messaged a seller and told him I thought the item was an autopen or in one case that Dave Scott was not spelled James Lovell. If the item is a blatant forgery, I can report it to eBay, but I will not accuse the seller of it.

Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005

Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003

Posts: 67
From: Kent, United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2010

posted 11-22-2011 08:21 AM               

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I would like to just add to what's been said so far, to me the presentation is just what you'd expect, I would bid on the item, but certification - provenance does help.

As for the seller - being the first item they have sold, and the trust in them, that's a choice you have to make.

I know how they feel in front of some of you guys, It gives you the feeling that you've just been wheeled into the Colosseum in front of Nero waiting for his thumbs up or down, not only daunting but also intimidating.

Trust me I've recently tried to sell on eBay and I'd never do it again. Sometimes a gift horse can be seen by blind eyes.

Posts: 1082
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008

Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003

Posts: 235
From: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Registered: Jan 2011

Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010

posted 11-22-2011 01:43 PM               

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quote:

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Originally posted by MrSpace86:
...I'll talk to the owner and let him know that his item is worth way more than he's selling it or question him about the authenticity of the item and or ask if there is more provenance.

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I don't understand this attitude. There is nothing wrong with asking a seller on eBay about information about something they are selling. On this piece, remember the only thing posted at first was the picture of the framed presentation. It was hard to get details on the various components from that picture. Also remember the seller has a 0 feedback.

It might have been a little much for someone to ask for a 45 day return window, but all the seller has to say (and did) is say no. If the questioner doesn't like the answer then the he is not forced to bid on it.

If I walked into a pawn shop or antique mall and saw a piece like this for sale for $25, then I would ask no questions. I would buy it if I thought it was real. If the piece was $2500, then I would ask questions.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions. There is nothing wrong with asking for provenance. No one asked the seller any insulting, degrading, or in any way inappropriate questions.

While I have not sold many items on eBay, I have not had any insulting questions asked. One asked me about how the signature on a book was obtained and I answered him that I did not know, but that I had confidence in the signature after much comparison and the fact that it had a nice inscription in the same hand. I did not feel insulted that I was asked. If I am asking you to spend your money with me, then you have the right to ask questions.

Posts: 1082
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008

posted 11-22-2011 03:55 PM               

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This presentation piece has just gone through the thousand dollar barrier at $1,076.00, with 24 bids from 12 bidders, and still over 3 days still to go.

Up-date:
Now stands at $1,180.11 with 25 bids from 13 bidders, with just under 2 days still to go.

Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 11-22-2011 05:08 PM               

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It's not really an attitude. It's the fact that I keep reading how this seller has been contacted time and time again (and then you read the 'ask seller a question' section and it's laughable).

I am all with you about asking questions. If I was going to cough up that amount of money, I would arrange to meet the seller! In this case, we know what a flown Apollo flag goes for. We know this a legitimate flown flag presentation. It's just a little outrageous to keep contacting him when we know what this item is.

I would be more concerned about the fact the seller has 0 feedback and started the sale at $0.99 without a Buy-it-now or Best Offer. This tells me that this person knows how eBay works (fees, etc). If this item were to hit the actual price of what a flag like this sells for, I would pass. I wouldn't trust the seller enough unless they had at least 50 to 100 feedback points.

In essence, yes, ask questions. But it seems that everyone keeps contacting this seller when the facts have already been established. It's not the first and certainly not the last time an item like this has or will be offered.

Posts: 1673
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010

posted 11-22-2011 05:42 PM               

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First I don't see where the seller has been contacted an excessive number of times, especially considering the value of the item. Nor do I think the questions are "laughable". Again remember when this was first posted, there was one picture of the whole presentation. It was not until the questions were asked that the seller posted the additional pictures. Also I don't know that he has been contacted over and over again since the pictures were added and the three questions were answered. Most of the discussion has been here on this forum, and I know one member has sent the seller a link to this discussion.

I do agree with you that if this approaches what it should be worth (assuming I had the money to buy it) I would pass because of the lack of feedback. I think it will come up short of that precisely for that reason.

Posts: 235
From: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Registered: Jan 2011

posted 11-23-2011 12:07 AM               

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Glad to see we are eventually returning to my original point. I don't believe this seller has any experience or understanding of the way eBay works.

They had no idea of what the item was worth, despite the huge clues plastered all over it and you would have thought five minutes or so of internet research would have got them a little more excited. But no.

Maybe you guys see fake moon flown flags everyday and it's all a big yawn.

A first time seller just doesn't want to over complicate things with BIN or Make Me An Offer because they're already struggling with the initial nightmare of setting up as a seller and selling their first item.

The other big clue was the length of the auction. Most collectors get fed up after five days never mind 10 and an experienced seller or buyer would know that.

And, as I mentioned initially, who would trust a newbie seller with what could be a $1000+ item?

If you guys are happy to pick up undiscovered gems due to a seller's ignorance, why shouldn't this guy pull his item now that he has an understanding of its true value especially considering the cash is going to good causes. It cuts both ways, you know.

Posts: 105
From: Columbia, Missouri USA
Registered: Nov 2010

posted 11-23-2011 05:50 PM               

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quote:

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Originally posted by Besixdouze:
Glad to see we are eventually returning to my original point. I don't believe this seller has any experience or understanding of the way eBay works.

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I am very new to this, and also do not have a lot of experience with high value items -- my son collects pinbacks and autographs he obtains personally or through Novaspace, all on pages of Chaikin's Voices from the Moon. He's still saving up for a four hundred dollar Buzz Aldrin autograph, if you see where I am coming from.

I have learned a lot from reading this thread. Honestly, if I were someone who could afford this item, and wanted it, I would have been very tempted to keep my mouth shut and hope not many people noticed it and it went for a couple of hundred dollars. I think contacting the seller and letting him know what he potentially had, and getting those extra pictures up there shows a lot of integrity, personally. I am impressed.

Posts: 1082
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008

posted 11-26-2011 12:46 PM               

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With just over three hours left to go on this auction, the bidding has now reached $1,475.00 with 28 bids from 15 bidders.

At this rate I can see this presentation piece exceeding $2,000.00.

Update at three hours: $1,620.65 with 29 bids from 16 bidders.

$1,700.00 with 30 bids from 17 bidders.

Posts: 547
From: Fort Worth, TX, USA
Registered: Feb 2005

Posts: 235
From: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Registered: Jan 2011

Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005