posted 08-22-2011 09:26 PM               

First not many people can afford a full checklist so they will buy a page. By selling them by the page, this does stimulate the collecting community because so many more will have access. Also if something happens to the house where the whole checklist resides, it is lost in its entirety. If there are pages around a least some will be saved.

If curators of museums are distressed, they can bid and purchase the checklists for their collections so they are accessible to the public.

posted 08-22-2011 09:48 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by fredtrav:
By selling them by the page, this does stimulate the collecting community because so many more will have access.

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quote:

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If curators of museums are distressed, they can bid and purchase the checklists for their collections so they are accessible to the public.

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posted 08-23-2011 09:01 AM            

A 2-sided page from Cernans LM Systems Data manual. While the original is being preserved, a full size copy displayed with a Moonpans panarama is proudly displayed in our home. Friends and guests are visibly pleased to view such an artifact.

The page is signed boldly by the commander, with the words "Flown to the moon".

Cernan added the following inscription at Spacefest II.

To Blake - This Systems Data Book Helped Get Us Home!!!
"Dream Big – Realize That Impossible Does Happen!!!"
Gene Cernan
APOLLO XVII
CDR.

posted 08-23-2011 11:07 AM               

As for the number of complete Apollo checklists left, it has been estimated that approximately 330 checklists flew on all of the Apollo missions. It is a difficult number to quantify, because each commander had the ability to determine the number of copies of certain types of checklists he would carry during the mission. An average of 30 checklists could be carried on a mission, but each mission had variances in the exact number of checklists in flight.

Now it is up to somebody to figure out how many checklists have been sold as well as how many of those checklists were broken up and sold as individual pages. I can say with certainty only one complete set of Apollo checklists remains intact. All other Apollo mission checklist sets have been broken up and sold as individual checklists or individual pages by astronauts, dealers and collectors.

There are reasons to maintain checklists in their complete form.

1. The obvious is that breaking the checklists apart destroys the historical and contextual aspect of the artifact.

2. Collectors of these checklists are really only temporary custodians of these pieces. If you look at the rare book market (a market much larger than this space collectible market), most of the great complete books have been acquired by museums, libraries or institutions through sale or donation in the last half of the 20th Century. This will can happen space artifacts too. I figure that within five to ten generations most of this material that this generation of collectors have in their collections will wind up heading towards some sort of institution. Although this is just a guess, it is based upon the above example that is related to the collecting of checklists.

3. The economics of breaking up a checklist are okay right now, but eventually the market for checklist pages drops as the amount of the supply exceeds the demand. Space artifact collecting is not a large hobby at this point and selling fifty or more leaves from each checklist can dilute the market. Imagine having five different dealers selling checklist pages from five different checklists with each having fifty or more leaves. That would be 250 or more pages out in the market at the same time. That's a lot for this hobby. There will be an initial burst of sales, but as has happened before, the sales slow down and the dealer is left with a quarter (or more) of the checklist unsold for quite some time.

4. Also with individual leaf sales, the page is now out of context and most people don't understand the terminology and events related to the page. Once the novelty of having a flown artifact wears off, the collector may decide to sell it. Now you have "resale pages" competing with the original dealer's continuing page sales. Thus creating an glut of that particular checklist's pages.

5. Breaking a complete checklist apart will probably get the buyer's money back, but leave him with extra unsold pages in an incomplete checklist that is useless to most collectors. This is the end result of my third point.

So it is better to buy and hold a complete checklist. Especially, if various entities keep breaking them up page by page which will make the complete checklists that much rarer.

posted 08-23-2011 06:23 PM               

It was seemingly singulated for sale directly by Gene Cernan, who annotated and signed the foldout.

The break-up wasn't my choice but rather that of the astronaut, and it is a complete and self-contained accounting of the radio. The context with the rest of the LRV schematic pages are arguably lost, though the LCRU only interfaces to the LRV power supply.

One could claim hypocricy here - I didn't have to be a buyer - but it was already out there (and I liked it) so went forward with the purchase.

posted 08-23-2011 07:56 PM               

But we're talking about booklets that have been offered for sale by astronauts to whoever is the top bidder. The chance for them to end up in a museum or library for further research has passed, unless the top bidder decides to donate it. And ironically, if the buyer plans to separate it for sale but first scans all of the individual pages and includes a CD of all of those scans with each page (as Spaceflori has for years) then the full contents of that flown booklet will now be more widely available then they would be if the buyer kept it intact but kept it to himself.

posted 08-23-2011 08:28 PM               

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Originally posted by SpaceAholic:
What good (selfless) rational is there for breaking up a checklist that is not profit motivated?

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posted 08-23-2011 09:22 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by SpaceAholic:
What good (selfless) rational is there...

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posted 08-23-2011 09:44 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by chet:
An intact checklist is hardly necessary for the preservation of the information it contains, so the most "pressing" reason for keeping it intact is the "wow factor" generated by a fully preserved artifact.

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posted 08-23-2011 11:29 PM               

None of the checklists were well scanned, if they were scanned at all. When the Apollo 17 Lunar Surface Checklist was broken up, I looked for a backup scan of the checklist to find that there was only a partial scan of an unflown checklist on the ALSJ. That checklist is now gone forever.

That is what is happening. That is why some people are attempting to keep some examples together.

In fact, look at the ALSJ and count how many checklists from each mission are scanned onto the site. It's an average of four or five of the possible ten that flew in the LM on a mission. Several of them are training checklists.

Would it be correct to say that profit is the real motive behind breaking up checklists? I know that is what drove the people I know to break them up. The ability to generate five and ten times the original payout on the complete piece is very tempting.

Think about it. The Apollo 17 LM Malfunction Checklist sold for $24,000 and generated over $60,000 as it was being broken up and sold chapter by chapter and then page by page. Now that's tempting.

Using the explanation that one is doing the hobby good or helping to expand the hobby is really just an attempt to justify the break up of a checklist.

Still it is a free country, so who are we to judge.

posted 08-24-2011 01:40 AM               

I'm not sure of your intentions, but I would keep them as is, and protect them. What you have is what you have. Don't beak up a set.

posted 08-24-2011 02:43 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Larry McGlynn:
None of the checklists were well scanned, if they were scanned at all. When the Apollo 17 Lunar Surface Checklist was broken up, I looked for a backup scan of the checklist to find that there was only a partial scan of an unflown checklist on the ALSJ. That checklist is now gone forever.

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posted 08-24-2011 06:50 AM               

Let's check to see from where the ALSJ received their scans of the A-17 Lunar Surface Journal.

Anybody who is directly involved in the ALSJ know where they got that particular checklist on the A-17 section of the ALSJ?

posted 08-24-2011 11:27 AM               

I have seen more and more cuts from various documents appear at auction lately. Signatures apparently cut from books is one example. A book was advertised on one of the major auction sites and part of the description was that the signature could be cut and used in a presentation.

Another is phrases or sentences cut from historical documents written by Washington or Lincoln or other historical figures. I have seen several of these for sale. It could be the document was badly damaged or it may be that someone cut a historic document to make more money off it.

I have little doubt that some sellers would cut pages from a bound checklist book and sell them individually, especially if it had hand written notes on the page.

As long as there is a big profit motive, people will cut anything up. One member here bought Jack Lousma'a STS-3 checklist recently at auction spending about $4500 for it. It had over 100 pages and he was selling the pages at a Buy-it-Now eBay price of $330 each. That puts him realizing $25,000 to $30,000 if he sold all the pages.

posted 08-24-2011 12:05 PM               

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Originally posted by Larry McGlynn:
I am not against profit. I am more for historical preservation.

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Regarding Robert's question, I'd guess bookbound checklists might inhibit their being broken up somewhat, but only because there would be greater likelihood of damaging the pages by removing them from the volume.

posted 08-24-2011 12:31 PM            

Would I like to see all checklists maintained intact and placed in the hands of museums or collectors dedicated to preservation of that history... you sure bet I would! Am I upset when I see one broken up... you sure bet I am! Do I understand why they get broken up and understand there's nothing I can do about it and do I understand that it does help collectors who don't have large bank accounts get into the hobby... you sure bet I do!

The reality is that museums like ours don't have the budgets to buy these checklists when they come available, usually with relatively little notice. Most museums don't have a nice spare bank account sitting around with cash in hand ready for these opportunities. We play around the edges with lower price items, which (in the past) we were able to take full advantage of when prices were much lower than they are now.

These days, we have to HOPE that collectors will purchase these items and hold onto them intact or maybe even loan or donate them to us for display and/or preservation. That doesn't happen a lot, although some of my friends in the collectors community have recently been an AWESOME source of loans (and donations) like that and I'm very much appreciative of their involvement.

There are museums that have funds like that, but virtually all of them are not looking at this stuff nor are they collecting it by auction purchase. We've got the interest, not the money. They've got the money, not the interest.

My prayer is that the majority of these checklists, etc. will remain intact and that we'll benefit one day from individuals or families that pass them on to us.

Another effort that I think would be nice... and that we may try to take up... would be to reach out to the collector world and ask them to send us their checklists, procedures, manuals, maps, etc., etc. that they presently have or as they acquire them so that we COULD scan them in for historical integrity. We could do this easily through our collaboration with FHSU. Would be nice if somebody planning to break up a checklist would send it to us first so that, at least, we could get the info and then put that in our records, pass it on to ALSJ, make it available to researchers, and MAYBE even put it on display for a little while sometimes.

As long as this is a free country and we're still all capitalists, I don't begrudge anyone the purchasing of and breaking up of a checklist. May be saddened by it, but I'm saddened by it in the same way I'm sad to see violent video games or revealing clothing in the stores everywhere for 8 year olds. Can't stop it, won't stop it, definitely don't understand it, but there's a market for it and I won't stand in their way. Hope everyone sees the humor there!

Well, I've rambled enough.

posted 08-24-2011 12:59 PM               

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Originally posted by chet:
To paraphrase the immortal words of Ricky Nelson,"...you can't please everyone, so you gotta please yourself".

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Asking if people like checklists being broken up is a little like asking if people want birds to go extinct. Obviously the answer is no. But just because someone sells separate pages doesn't make them a bad person, or mean they don't care about history. It simply means that's the way they chose to sell the item. There's a lot of factors involved that other people wont know and have no right to know. They made a decision based on their own situation.

I think the danger is starting to belittle people who are selling pages simply because you disagree with them selling them that way (as happened when someone simply started a thread saying he was selling Skylab pages). People start thinking they are the moral authority on items they didn't even bother to buy and don't own (they're not). It drives people away from simply enjoying being interested in space travel. It's also just kind of rude to do that when someone's simply trying to sell something and didn't ask anyone's opinion (that's my unasked for opinion).

No one is ever going to say breaking up checklists is a great thing but no one has a right to tell anyone doing it that they don't care about history or complain about them only being able to do things if they're some sort of ridiculous "selfless" act. That's just preposterous and arrogant.

posted 08-24-2011 02:15 PM               

This is collectors discussing an issue. Let's bring this thread back to the reasons why checklists should be either kept together or broken apart.

Nobody is a bad person. It is just a matter of who has an agenda and what that agenda is. That is all this discussion is really about and it has been a good thread.

We can end the thread, since both sides are not going to agree, but that would be too bad, since it has been a good topic. One of the better ones on collecting in a while.

Chet, one thing about using the Liberty Bell 7 as an example. Unlike the checklists, the Liberty Bell 7 has lots of destroyed parts that will never be used again. Also those parts will continue to corrode due to their decades long immersion in salt water and their contact with air.

Putting those destroyed parts in lucite actually saved them and the money made from the sale went to the cost of restoration of the Liberty Bell 7 spacecraft.

Truth is that there are lots of parts in this hobby, but not a lot of complete artifacts like the checklists.

Now I ask a question about whether the checklist buyer that breaks up a checklist is a collector, dealer or investor?

I will state that I have seen "investors" destroy hobbies for the original collectors. Coin collecting as one example. I know one of the owners of the Bowers and Ruddy Coin Auction House of the 1970's. He got out of the hobby, because investors took the hobby over and priced the collectors out of the market.

posted 08-24-2011 02:40 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Spaceguy5:
You wouldn't take the original of a classic book and strip it to bits...

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• Pages from Illuminated Manuscripts
  
• Pages from Gutenberg Bibles
  
• Prints from Audubon's Birds of America
  
• Maps from early Atlases

posted 08-24-2011 04:36 PM               

And I think it's a great idea to preserve the information in these checklists, which is why I have scanned for posterity each page of the checklists I own. And though I purchased them as a collector, I'm not averse to selling pages from them as it suits my financial needs or collecting desires. If they were the last intact checklists in existence I doubt I would feel that way, but thankfully they're not.

As to the question of who is buying up these items, collectors or investors, I can say in my own case it was a bit of both. I didn't set out to buy them to break them up and re-sell them, but neither did I purchase with the intent of being only a custodian. Quite frankly, I bought them because of how cool they are to me (and to anyone I'm able to show them to), hence my favoring the approach that the more people that can be exposed to them, the better.

Clearly there is the possibility that some checklists are being bought by those with the sole intention of breaking them up for resale. I don't think that makes them evil, just businessmen. It is unfortunate that it has to come at the cost of an intact artifact, but the idea of having some individual or group dictating to others what MUST be done with such artifacts is something that I find far more distressing.