posted 08-24-2011 07:51 PM               

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Originally posted by Larry McGlynn:
Did anyone say "MUST" be done?

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posted 08-24-2011 08:04 PM               

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Originally posted by chet:
...elevating what amounts to a personal preference to the form of ethical obligation gets uncomfortably close.

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posted 08-24-2011 08:18 PM               

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
One is free to do as they choose, but they also must accept the ramifications of their decisions, including the possibility of having their actions disparaged by the community.

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posted 08-25-2011 12:39 PM               

As I wrote, if my checklists were the last intact ones in existence I'm certain I'd feel differently about the urgency to keep them intact. As is, with collectors such as yourself, astronauts and institutions holding many checklists that will remain intact, there seems little danger of posterity being shortchanged.

I know this opens me to the retort that if EVERYONE felt as I did there wouldn't be any intact checklists around in just a few decades, but this reminds me of the line from the Woody Allen film Love and Death, where Diane Keaton exposits, "If everyone went to the same restaurant on the same night and ordered blintzes, there'd be chaos....but they don't".

posted 08-25-2011 12:53 PM               

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Originally posted by chet:
As I wrote, if my checklists were the last intact ones in existence I'm certain I'd feel differently about the urgency to keep them intact.

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posted 08-25-2011 01:39 PM               

I know Larry disagrees with my Liberty Bell 7 analogy, but I feel a "happy balance" was struck with the restoration of that capsule, enough so that both historians and collectors were satisfied with the outcome. I feel similarly about checklists in this debate.

Imagine EVERY checklist that ever flew on an Apollo mission being locked up by the Smithsonian (with a dozen or so put on public display). Would a call for a few to be broken up for release as individual pages to the general public be seen as an outrage, or as a compromise of sorts?

This debate extends even to the astronauts themselves, with some vowing never to break-up their checklists, while others have felt fine in doing so.

I certainly understand the dismay of historians on this issue, but there are pathways to follow besides only those of the pure preservationists.

posted 08-25-2011 01:59 PM               

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Originally posted by chet:
Imagine EVERY checklist that ever flew on an Apollo mission being locked up by the Smithsonian (with a dozen or so put on public display). Would a call for a few to be broken up for release as individual pages to the general public be seen as an outrage, or as a compromise of sorts?

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posted 08-25-2011 02:52 PM               

Chet pointed out something I thought of earlier today and believe is important regarding the astronauts themselves. This topic started briefly with the Lousma shuttle checklist sold in Heritage and now being sold page by page.

I remember that both Conrad and Aldrin began selling checklists by the page in the early '90s. When you castigate the collector and his inherent responsibility to maintain the item in it's entirety for posterity sake — Buzz Aldrin has sold pages from the Flight Plan, the Lunar Activation Checklist and the Surface Checklist piecemeal from the beginning. One of the "first men" on the moon — took it upon himself to separate the pages — for profit sake — from the most significant mission in manned spaceflight.

Most serious collectors who have the resources have bought and cherished these relics, and many of those who don't have the resources would love to have one.

There have been over a half dozen Apollo era astronauts selling the pages from checklists they have broken up. Who bears more responsibility — those who participated and notated and held the objects, or those to whom they sell? Aldrin sold the timeline checklist in it's entirety for roughly a quarter of a million — but I've never seen a copy made by the buyer, by Aldrin, by NASA or any other source, though 2 to 3 pages were illustrated in the catalog.

Yes, it would be wonderful to have the ability to review all these checklists that have flown — and really the flown ones are the ones that have the inflight notations. There are duplicates of unflown checklists that were utilized by Mission Control for reference.

But there is no one repository of fine scans of these checklists for review — I would venture to guess that less than 15% of the 300+ flown checklists have had copies made.

When the single pages ARE sold — they do tend to have an illustration in the catalogs — so there is some reference — and to be frank more than has been previously available. Many archivists do recognize that collectors generally take better care of many items than the less endowed museums and archives that hold so many items — they often lose tract of them; and are never in the public's eye.

I know of an extremely respected Ivy League university that did not know it had a signed copy of the Emancipation Proclamation signed by Lincoln — as it was part of a large gift of papers left to the university and was filed under "proclamation" for over 40 years. Many museums, libraries, historical societies have had to deaccess major items in their collections to secure funds to keep their organization running. Certainly the donor had no intention of the item being sold, and wanted it available to be seen — but it is an "asset" to that library et al that often makes hard choices. Some institutions have suffered theft, fire and flooding losses as well.

For historical research purposes — good copies of the document are most often sufficient as the original.

Before we disparage the collectors AND astronauts who break up the checklists, or their heirs — let us remember:

• Lindbergh donated the Spirit of St. Louis to the Smithsonian in 1928, yet cut up fragments of the fabric outer skin while the Smithsonian was restoring it — and gave them to friends, associates and other's in the aviation field; no he didn't sell them — but he did give them away and some of those who got them did sell them

• Bess Wallace Truman burned most of the letters between Harry and herself after his presidency

• Historian Jared Sparks cut up Washington's undelivered first inaugural address and distributed the pieces to autograph collectors in the 1830s

• Before his death, Robert Lincoln (who was Secretary of State under Teddy Roosevelt) burned a number of private letters of his father ("Abe") and when a friend remonstrated him as not having the right — he replied he did not care — since the papers he was destroying contained the documentary evidence of the treason of a member of Lincoln's cabinet.

posted 08-25-2011 10:28 PM               

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Originally posted by Robert:
Replace "checklist" in your example with spacecraft or spacesuit and "pages" with components, and read it back it to yourself. Still agree with your assertion?

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posted 08-25-2011 11:15 PM               

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Originally posted by scrpien:
Does anyone have an opinion about breaking up checklists for sale by the page versus keeping them intact and selling them as an intact item?

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posted 08-25-2011 11:36 PM               

At this stage the best anyone can hope for is that good quality digital copies will be made to preserve the basic historical record of each mission. But since we are looking back to see how we got to where we are now, I believe the real problem is that NASA management was blind to the need to preserve these documents rather than treat them as disposable property the astronauts could simply keep as personal souvenirs of their missions and, for many of them, their ultimate financial profit.

Yes, if NASA put them in the Smithsonian alongside all the spacesuits none of us would be discussing the keep together vs. break-up issue, but the country would be richer for preserving these important documents relating to one of the most historic achievements of the 20th century.

posted 08-26-2011 02:41 PM               

You have to follow how this material was handled after the spacecraft arrived back on Earth.

The spacecraft were brought back to LRL at JSC. The JSC personnel took the equipment out of the spacecraft, cataloged it via an ASHER list and placed it in bonded storage in Building 421, where it was reviewed by NASA and the Smithsonian. The items that the Smithsonian wanted made their way to the museum. The rest was left behind.

Every astronaut that I know has told me that one day they got asked if they wanted their equipment. If not, then NASA would "survey" it, which is a Navy term for disposal or throw out.

Many astronauts kept the material. The Apollo 15 cover issue caused NASA management to review their procedures and create new ones about what could be kept, loaned to or given back. NASA demanded the astronauts material (PPK and artifacts) in the 1970's. The material was returned when Al Worden settled his case for the return of his covers with the Federal Government in 1983.

Most of these guys kept this stuff in boxes in the attic or basement until the auctions got really going during the last two decades.

posted 08-29-2011 10:23 PM               

Certain Flown FDF checklists from Gemini and Apollo have been sold with no scan made, or no unflown copy available in any form including from NARA records group 255. Some books used during missions (some extensively) are literally one natural disaster or heart-attack away from being seen by any human eyes again.

posted 08-30-2011 09:36 AM            

This way, a full historical record is kept, and preserved, and if stored digitally in 2 or more places (and downloaded by those of us interested) it is practically impossible that the historical RECORD would be lost. At the same time, collectors would be able to buy a piece of history.

posted 08-30-2011 01:29 PM               

In another thread I had volunteered myself as a custodian, but even I understand this would best be accomplished my a small group with means of digital storage and online ability.

I do not have a formal history degree, but I thoroughly understand the structures and the scope of content of "Flight Data Files" from Mercury through the ISS and even Soviet and Russian programs. I also have cataloging, library, and experience acquiring specific documents under FOIA. I know the state of what has been cataloged and digitally scanned and most importantly available to the public.

Summary of what is available:

• The Apollo Flight Journal and Apollo Lunar Surface Journal Flight Plans. Any Apollo buff will tell you a list of things they still wish to see.
  
• Recent Space Shuttle FDF on the JSC FOIA Electronic Reading Room STS-113 through present.
  
• Mercury Flight Plans for Orbital missions.
  
• The balance of Shuttle Flight Plans on a subscription based space site. (41D through 51L are of poor quality)

• Gemini Flight Data File Documents (no Flight plans or checklists Flown or unflown)
  
• Early STS checklists 1981-2003 (Some truncated scans exist mostly for STS-1, 86-89 on commercial CDs)
  
• Any Soviet or Russian produced checklist from any program. (Outside several dozen examples of a couple photographed pages as online advertisements or in auction catalogs).

posted 08-30-2011 01:41 PM               

Some years ago I had the chance to meet CDR Cernan and told him I owned this piece from his mission. He said, and I quote: "Better hanging on your wall than in a box in my basement". So it seems that at least some Apollo astronauts thought these artifacts were best distributed among those who cared about them and would continue to care for them in the future.