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Author
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Topic: Fair offer for Hubble solar cell acrylic?
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ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 06-17-2010 11:38 AM
   
My step mom works on the HST program at Goddard Space Flight Center and was given this encased piece of the Hubble Solar array from the servicing mission back in 1993. For some reason she gave it to me a few years ago.Part of the array was jettisoned into space, but part was returned to earth and I guess they cut it up to give to people who worked closely on the program. The cut of the solar cell is about 2.5 x 1.75 inches. Someone offered me $900 for this... Does this seem fair?  
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SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-17-2010 11:52 AM
Not in my opinion... this is a very unusual lucite (the first I have seen of this variant) - of late the standard HST solar cell acrylics have been sold in the range of 2-3K dollars. This lucite is worth at least as much if not more. |
ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 06-17-2010 01:56 PM
Well, that's very interesting. Where have you seen HST solar cells for sale? |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-17-2010 04:17 PM
The most recent sale (October 2009 at Regency netted 3900 dollars).This lot sold for $2100 (from Regency Superior Auctions April 2009 Lot 7).
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spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 06-17-2010 04:40 PM
To be honest the ESA pieces are probably worth a little more because they are a well known set of lucites. This is still a nice piece of course. There's no saying how high it could sell with two keen bidders battling it out. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-17-2010 04:42 PM
However this artifact includes an additional solar cell (the ESA units only have 2)...and the provenance is pretty interesting having been formally associated with an individual who actually worked on the program. |
ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 06-17-2010 05:43 PM
One worry that I have in trying to sell this is that I don't have any kind of certificate of authenticity or anything like that. Obviously NASA isn't gonna bother to hand those out along with these... How are things like this authenticated?Thanks for the info, this is really interesting! |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-17-2010 06:17 PM
Close inspection of the cell's architecture can assist with authentication (compared against other known examples encapsulated in the ESA lucites). |
ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 06-17-2010 06:23 PM
So, what do ya'll think is the best way to sell this? |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 06-18-2010 05:55 AM
eBay is the obvious answer. It reaches lots of collectors and works well. There's a fee involved of course but it's not enormous. Note that one of the ESA lucites sold on eBay a couple of months ago for $2600.The major auction houses that hold space auctions also work well but the buyer and seller fees take a significant amount off. e.g. the $2100 Regency sale would have given the buyer something like $1525 net. Astro-Auction is a free specialist space auction site. Would work well, although you'll need to set up an account first. Last but by no means least, you can use the collectSPACE buy/sell forum to run your own virtual auction. Just ask people to mail you bids, update the thread with the latest high bid and let it run until there are no more bids. |
ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 06-19-2010 06:30 PM
Well, it's up on eBay. Thanks for the help, guys! |
J.L
Member Posts: 674
From: Bloomington, Illinois, USA
Registered: May 2005
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posted 06-23-2010 10:23 PM
And... why has the auction ended early? |
ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 06-25-2010 06:38 PM
Ok here's the deal (my apologies for my late response)... Some members of my family really freaked out about the auction. My stepmother, who still works at NASA (she's pretty high ranking there), claims that someone at NASA reported the auction to her superiors and that her career was in jeopardy because this piece was being sold. My dad (who does a lot of the communicating for her to me), claims that the head of manned space servicing missions at NASA said that it was a disgrace to the Hubble program. Both of them are pretty much insane though, and I don't know what to believe about what they told me. Oddly enough, a few days after I started the auction a person messaged me on eBay and told me they had worked on the Hubble program for 19 years and asked me who my stepmom is. Perhaps it wasn't wise, but I told them a first name. So, I'm guessing this person reported it. Part of me really still wants to sell it and send it to a good home, but all the family pressure caused me to cave and end the auction. In some ways I don't care what they think, but I have to let this whole thing blow over before I make a decision. Like I said, my stepmom and dad are pretty crazy, and I don't know whether to believe their story or not... Incidentally, I had the reserve set at $3,100. I wouldn't have accepted an offer outside of ebay! |
NightHawk117
Member Posts: 325
From: USA
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted 06-25-2010 09:08 PM
Are you kidding me? The astronauts sell their NASA items all the time, so why would some Hubble employee lose their job over a paperweight! |
ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 06-25-2010 09:12 PM
So I messaged the person who sent me the question asking who my stepmom was and asked her if there "was a huge fiasco at Goddard about this." She replied "There was a lot of concern about how this would be perceived by NASA. Those of us working for Hubble consider these items very near and dear to us, and the thought of one of us selling this item is very disturbing."I think they need to chill the frack out. |
NightHawk117
Member Posts: 325
From: USA
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted 06-25-2010 09:26 PM
I just talked with Sandy at Goddard. She puts the weekly newsletter together for Goddard and she said that this is going to make the front page. They have already started interviewing people from the 1993 mission. |
ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 06-25-2010 09:30 PM
Whaaaat? Are you serious? They're going to say that someone was going to sell one in the newsletter? Jesus, I feel like a traitor or something. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-25-2010 10:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by NightHawk117:
The astronauts sell their NASA items all the time...
It is important to qualify this statement: former (or retired) astronauts sometimes sell their memorabilia; active (still-in-hire) astronauts are legally prohibited from doing so.The issue here may not be the Hubble cells themselves but that they are being sold by a family member of the still-in-hire government employee that received them. My layman understanding, and it could be mistaken, is that government employees are subject to conflict of interest laws, which prohibit them, or their immediate family members, from financially benefiting, or even giving the appearance of financially benefiting from their position. That said, the newsletter coverage sounds odd; if there is a problem, it would be the purview of the NASA Office of the Inspector General to investigate, not public affairs to promote. |
NightHawk117
Member Posts: 325
From: USA
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted 06-26-2010 07:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by NightHawk117:
I just talked with Sandy at Goddard. She puts the weekly newsletter together for Goddard and she said that this is going to make the front page. They have already started interviewing people from the 1993 mission.
^THIS^ Was totally a joke! |
ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 06-27-2010 11:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by NightHawk117:
^THIS^Was totally a joke!
Sorry, my internet humor detector wasn't working!Robert, your interpretation definitely makes sense... |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 06-28-2010 10:37 AM
Who needs eBay? You could always sell it elsewhere. But I agree with others, I would not sell the piece if you have a close family member still employed by NASA. It looks (and could classify as) highly unethical and could cost some people their jobs, etc. |
ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 06-28-2010 11:09 AM
Yeah, if I'd known it would be such a fiasco I wouldn't have tried to sell it. |
GACspaceguy
Member Posts: 2475
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 06-28-2010 11:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by MrSpace86:
Who needs eBay? You could always sell it elsewhere. But I agree with others, I would not sell the piece if you have a close family member still employed by NASA. It looks (and could classify as) highly unethical and could cost some people their jobs, etc.
So this item is still NASA property and was not GIVEN to employees? It is my understanding that when something is given to an employee it becomes their property and thus they are allowed to do as they wish with it. I would be careful to call it unethical unless there were specific instructions given to employees that the item is still the possession of the employer, other wise the employer could get themselves in hot water. Could it be considered poor taste, yes, but I would not call it unethical. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 06-28-2010 11:53 AM
The question is...was the solar cell given to workers as a gift or was it something loaned conditionally (e.g. "you may hold one of these in your possession for display in your office/home, but are not allowed to sell it and must surrender it upon request"). If the item was a true gift and no such conditions were given, I see no harm in selling it.If I give someone a gift, I really have no right to say how they dispose of it... especially 17 years after the fact. |
ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 06-28-2010 12:09 PM
I'm almost certain it was a gift and not a loan. That would be pretty odd to loan something like that. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-28-2010 12:16 PM
An ethical issue posed by the sale of this item is establishment of an elevated market value (vs retail value) threshold. Because gifts to government employees are not supposed to exceed some marginal amount in each case (I think the retail value is somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 dollars), the historical precedence derived from the sale of your lucite could preclude other government employee's from receiving these and even result in an obligation for those current federal employees who have already received them to have to return the gift. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 06-28-2010 12:32 PM
Hubble lucites have sold at auction before this latest example, so I think it's been clearly established that their value is significantly more than $20 on the marketplace. One could also make a strong argument that the original gift, when given in 1993, was already worth well more than $20... considering the cost to manufacture the cells, the cost to return them back to earth, and their overall high desirability. Only the effort to encase them in lucite might have been an under-$20 effort (per item).As I understand it, the $20 limit (or whatever the actual limit is) has applied to government employees accepting gifts from non-government sources. Does anyone know if the same rule applies to gifts given internally within a government agency that are officially sanctioned? Even if that was the case, I don't see there being a rule in place that says that any gift given one day cannot be allowed to appreciate in value over time to someday exceed $20 in value. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-28-2010 12:49 PM
If I understand the NASA Office of the General Counsel's Ethics Frequently Asked Questions correctly, then the acrylic is not considered a gift as it was paid for by the Government and therefore is not subject to the $20/$50 rule. The same FAQ states the two core concepts that define the obligations of public service, including "don't use public office for private gain." The rule is simple: we may not use our public office for private gain. This includes our own private gain, or that of anyone else. However, the rule sweeps quite broadly, and applies in a wide variety of circumstances. The rule also covers misuse of non-public information, and misuse of Government property or time. Further to that point, NASA Policy Directive (NPD) 4300.4D "Use of Space Shuttle and Aerospace Vehicle Materials as Mementos" clearly states: Mementos provided by NASA to its employees, its contractors, or other individuals will be restricted so that no further subdivision and sale of the material is practical. The recipient cannot utilize such gifts for profit-making purposes. That latter restriction (emphasis mine) is in practice enforced only so long as the recipient remains in hire of the U.S. government. Once retired, they can dispose of their personal property as so desired. |
ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 06-28-2010 12:56 PM
In this case, my stepmom was no longer in possession of the lucite as she had gifted it to me. She would receive no benefit from the sale and (obviously) I'm not employed by the US government. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-28-2010 01:06 PM
Not necessarily, because as noted above, the rules include the employee's "own private gain, or that of anyone else."Given all the issues involved, if you do plan to go forth with the sale, you and your stepmother might benefit from first posing the question to NASA's Office of the General Counsel, to ensure you are not doing anything prohibited by NASA policy or U.S. law. |
ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 07-11-2010 07:53 PM
Ok, some time has passed and my relationship has quite deteriorated with the aforementioned stepmother so there's a decent chance I'm gonna put this up for sale for good, whatever rage it may inspire. I'll keep ya'll posted... Something I'm not quite clear on: have any of the NASA lucites been sold before or has it only been the ESA ones? |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 07-12-2010 12:35 PM
I'm going to be honest with you:I think you are better off keeping it for a while and not selling it (or sell it and just don't tell us). My reasoning behind that is that we have all read this thread and it seems a little risky to either sell or buy this item. I think a lot of us would like to steer clear of NASA and federal agents knocking our door for questioning and potentially having to give up the piece. That being said, because there is so much uncertainty and you did pull the item off eBay early. That would lead at least me to be hesitant to purchase the item.
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ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 07-19-2010 09:29 PM
Well, there it is, bid away, folks (or tell your collecting friends). |
ThePDW1
Member Posts: 15
From:
Registered: Jun 2010
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posted 07-29-2010 09:32 PM
Wow, I'm really surprised that it didn't sell! I had 32 watchers and no bids. |
Playalinda
Member Posts: 152
From: Peoria, AZ, USA
Registered: Oct 2009
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posted 07-30-2010 02:41 AM
Bidders don't like reserves.
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GACspaceguy
Member Posts: 2475
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 07-30-2010 04:42 AM
I would suggest that the people willing to spend the kind of money you were asking are part of this forum. In this case I would say the issue here was a significant amount of controversy surrounding the piece and price was somewhat high. No need to rationalize the price point, the simple fact is it was too high and it did not sell. If the price point was much lower it would erase the controversy stigma, for some, and you would have sold it. For me I watched the auction only to see where it was going to end, but would not bid on it based on the fact that it had caused a family riff and it is questionable as to whether it should be sold because of the NASA policy stated above. I am not saying that is everyone’s reason, just mine. |
garymilgrom
Member Posts: 1966
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 07-30-2010 07:41 AM
You may want to try offering it with what you think is a fair "Buy it Now" price and the ability to take offers. Perhaps someone will offer you enough to sell it, but if not you'll get a good idea of what others think it is worth. |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 07-30-2010 11:53 AM
If you really need to sell the piece, I suggest just starting the auction at $0.99 and watching it go from there. You most likely will not get what you desire for it and chances are that NASA and the federal government will track that auction and are probably reading this forum. Just my two cents... |
Safecoat
Member Posts: 93
From: Austin, TX
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 07-30-2010 03:28 PM
Either wait until your relative retires from NASA to sell it or as Robert suggested above to go check with NASA's Office of the General Counsel to make sure you are not doing anything illegal. Maybe they could give you an official answer in writing that it is legal to sell the item and you could include the letter with the item when you auction it off. There are not shortcuts when you are trying to get a big price for a questionable piece like this.
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spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 07-30-2010 04:39 PM
I agree with all the above.I was one of those watching the auction but when it came to deciding whether to bid or not I came back and read through the thread here. My conclusion was that there was no point risking money on an item that stood a chance of being reclaimed by the US government. I also agree that a reserve is generally offputting. If the opening price is $999, how much further than that do we need to bid before we meet the reserve? 25% higher? 50% higher? Double? So, get the legal status of the item clarified beyond any doubt then if it's okay to sell it put it out there with the opening price set at the minimum you're willing to let it go for then sit back and watch the bidding. |
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