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  Astronaut Office suspect Apollo 11 autographs (Page 1)

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Author Topic:   Astronaut Office suspect Apollo 11 autographs
spaceflori
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posted 03-14-2007 04:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For quite some time I ran into the same kind of questionable Apollo 11 signatures again and again. Most were on covers but also photos especially of Buzz Aldrin have been spotted bearing this strange signature.

When asking the owners I often got the same nasty reply "I got this straight from the astronaut office writing to the astronauts" which always sounded like the typical explanation until now...

After some investigation and numerous emails with Bob McLeod we came to the conclusion that there are some heavy weight facts that prove in my opinion that someone in the astronaut office back in the early 70s or even immediately after the moonlanding has unknowingly signed autographs for the three Apollo 11 astronauts.

Bob and I agree these are not secretarial signatures but forgeries since they weren't authorized.

Below shown are several examples that clearly originate from the same hand.
Please note that also mixes of real, autopen and these forgeries do exist.
Apparently not all requests were handled by the same person there. Or possibly some covers were sent in again getting a real or Autopen autograph next time?

The facts are:

  1. Covers addressed to Peter Wilhelm were found in his estate, as most of his covers he got them cancelled and returned to him. Afterwards he sent some off to the astronauts to get signed. These were in his collection since then. He wouldn't send one of his covers to anyone else than the astronaut office.

  2. Two other collectors confirmed that they have received the same style through the mail back then.

  3. A well known official from the space program (name is known to us) confirmed that she obtained that style through Houston.

  4. The strange stamp block - why would they feature a fake?
We would appreciate if anyone else can provide such examples that they knowingly got from the astronaut office.

Scott
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posted 03-14-2007 06:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The examples of these three suspect Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins styles do appear to be in the same hand in my opninion. I don't believe there is any chance at all they are authentic. I would imagine the same secretary probably did all three - a different secretary doing each signature would seem unlikely.

As mentioned, there are some examples above which aren't of these styles: I do believe the top item's Armstrong and the second-from-the-bottom item's Collins are authentic, though the scans here are too small to really tell for sure IMO. The second from the bottom Aldrin is an autopen. (The printed signatures on the stamp block, with the exception of the Armstrong, do appear to all be made from authentic exemplars.)

Very interesting.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 03-14-2007 06:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First, do we know for certain that Wilhelm did in fact receive his material back from the astronaut office (it would seem so!) in 1969-70 with the depicted signatures on them?

Yes, all the signatures with the exception of the one "good" Armstrong in my opinion appear to be in the same hand and are certainly "atypical" (forgeries) than the normal usual patterns for that era.

Secondly, I would not be surprised to learn that these are perhaps indeed secretarials -- or done by somebody within the office there -- because of all the mail requests to the Apollo 11 crew within that short time period before Armstrong and Collins first stopped signing postal covers and other philatelic items.

My early writings to the now-Johnson Space Center for astronaut autographs started in 1970-71, but never to the Apollo 11 crew. I do have, however, an Apollo 14 litho of Shepard on the moon that contains a rather lengthy autograph inscription to me -- by Shepard -- that I have always questioned! I do believe this was a secretarial, received from his office during the early 70s, that someone did for him.

Therefore, I would not be completely surprised by these developments, especially involving Apollo 11 crew signatures. Hopefully, it would appear, that such actions were not the "norm" so-to-speak from the astronauts' mail room. Yes, of course, autopens were a constant problem to collectors during the Apollo/Skylab era, but Wilhelm's signatures of the first manned lunar landing crew are a bit puzzling, but not a complete surprise to me, for how he may have gotten them.

Keep in mind that perhaps a certain employee there may have decided by himself, without anyone else knowing, to "produce" such autographs that he may have felt was a harmless attempt to "help" a German collector. Oh well, we'll probably never know for sure, huh?

Matt T
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posted 03-14-2007 06:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think I know who one of the culprits is. Look at the two covers signed by 'Buzz' alone - now look at the Zs in Buzz. The loops are identical to the Ys in classic John Young sigs.

No wonder Young charges $500 for his signature these days, he must have been making a killing on the Apollo 11 secondary market for years

Joking aside - interesting discovery Flori.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 03-14-2007 06:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, I agree with Scott as the Aldrin in blue on the Ronson cover is an early autopen from that era. There may be a good Collins on the same cover, but the Armstrong is certainly a forgery. In regards to the stamp sheet, it would need a larger scan.

Scott
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posted 03-14-2007 07:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These (apparently secretarial) styles compiled by Florian appear to be the same ones seen in the much-discussed Aurora Lot 514 from Fall 2003 and in my opinion show definitively that the Lot 514 sigs were obtained through-the-mail (not in-person) and are not authentic.

spaced out
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posted 03-14-2007 07:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pure speculation of course, but I can't help wondering if this was done when the Autopen machine was out of order.

I imagine that there was an enormous amount of material to be put through the Autopen machine every day. Like any machine I imagine that from time to time it broke down and had to be repaired. Maybe someone took it upon themselves to hand-write the signatures during one or more of these periods.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 03-14-2007 08:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This reminds me of the "interesting tidbit" shared by Novaspace after their June 2005 signing with Michael Collins:
When the Apollo 11 crew was on world tour shortly after the flight, they signed a lot of Apollo 11 crew photos. Some, he said, while they were nearly asleep. A member of their entourage became very skilled at forging all three signatures, and he signed some of them in lieu of the crew.

Bob M
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posted 03-14-2007 09:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob M   Click Here to Email Bob M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Florian has made quite an interesting and significant discovery. Collectors had long believed that autographs coming out of the Astronaut Office at NASA/Houston were only one of two things: genuine or autopens and only two early astronauts (Shepard and Grissom) were known to have used secretaries (officially) to sign for them. But now it certainly appears that a secretary did sign for all three Apollo 11 crew members. As has been pointed out, the huge volume of requests for the Apollo 11 crew's autographs probably caused this to happen.

We'll probably never know for sure if this lone secretary took it on herself/himself to forge the signatures or was directed to do so by someone in authority. But it's my opinion that this person did so without authorization to save time and to take some of the burden off the over-used autopen machine during this busy time in 1969/70.

If it was done without authorization, these forgeries IMO shouldn't be given the respectable title of "secretarials" but perhaps should be referred to as "unofficial secretarials" or "NASA forgeries."

But whatever, they are forgeries and fortunately are easy to spot because they are all so similar and from the same hand. And they look to be fairly widespread and had been received by a number of collectors during the Apollo 11 era.

It looks like a lot of people were fooled by these less-than-well-done fakes, including the winning bidder of Aurora lot 514 from the fall 2003 auction that were said to have been obtained in person.

SRB
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posted 03-14-2007 09:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SRB   Click Here to Email SRB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Should these be called fakes or forgeries rather than than fall under the classificiation of secretartial signatures? The person signing for the astronauts seems to have been authorized in the sense that the astronauts knew someone was signing their names and they didn't object, or more likely, were happy that they did not have to do it themselves. What do you think about the proper classification of these items?

spaceflori
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posted 03-14-2007 12:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As Bob speculates my initial thought was as well that someone in the astronaut's office realized that "signing" the names of the three astronauts is faster and less time consuming than putting the piece into the Autopen machine, fix it, have the autopen done, take it out of the machine and return it to the sender.

Maybe the autopen machine also didn't catch up with the volumen of autograph requests received them.

Ken: Obviously we can't ask Peter anymore if he received his samples through the mail but knowing Peter and his dislike for any autograph it would be hard to believe he sold the cover addressed to him to someone else and buy it back years later. Peter once said to me that he indeed wrote autograph requests back then but lost interest in favour of the philatelic stuff. Also we habe the confirmation of two other collectors having received these samples through the mail.

Steve: To me they are forgeries whether done officially (called secretarials) or not doesn't matter IMHO.

Robert: I sent you a scan of a forgery possibly obtained from an entourage member of the Apollo 11 worldtour. It's different to these examples.

A.Pelago
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posted 03-14-2007 02:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for A.Pelago     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When Senator Glenn was running for President, I sent a photograph of him to his campaign office. It came back a few weeks later with a glaringly-poor secretarial signature and inscription applied. At that time, you either got genuine Glenn or autopenned Glenn. For whatever reason though, this one was signed by someone else on his behalf. Unfortunately, I misplaced it over the years.

micropooz
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posted 03-14-2007 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for micropooz   Click Here to Email micropooz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, you guys have me looking at all of my Buzz autos with a jaundiced eye (I know where my Neils and Mikes came from). But I am having a hard time seeing the "giveaway" that gives away the above examples as forgeries (or secretarials). Is it the big loopy tail on each of the z's? If so, how do the non-loopy z's on the Orbit cover correlate? Big round loopy "A"? Underlining coming back into the signature? What?

spaceflori
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posted 03-16-2007 09:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Short update.

We have two more confirmations that these type of signatures were received from the astronaut office back in the 70s or late 69.

It's quite obvious now.

Scott
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posted 03-16-2007 11:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spaceflori:
It's quite obvious now.
Oh yes, no doubt about it.

One blessing I suppose is that these are relatively poorly done forgeries/secretarials and appear to be limited to one person at NASA. What a nightmare it might be for collectors if the person at NASA had done a much better job on these (ala signatures done by Shepard's secretary in the mid-90s, for example).

spaceflori
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posted 03-16-2007 12:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yep, indeed these fakes are fairly easy to identify especially since they are very consistent in shape and "design" - that's why I assume that they were done in relatively short time frame in Houston by the same person.

The point is that still many people believe they are authentic because they received them directly from the astronaut office then.

There's a stamp and cover collection here in Germany to be auctioned off that contains several of these "crewsigned" apollo 11 covers - just a question of time till they appear on ebay I guess...

SRB
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posted 03-16-2007 04:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SRB   Click Here to Email SRB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What auction in Germany? It would help us trace the covers if they appear again in another setting.

spaceflori
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posted 03-17-2007 12:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's in the Gaertner auction - a complete estate sale from what I've been told.
It's just one big lot containing these fakes among 10000 others though... they are not sold individually there.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-19-2007 09:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have direct confirmation that neither Armstrong's, Aldrin's or Collins' NASA secretaries signed these or any other items for the crew. If a facsimile autograph was needed, they used the autopen exclusively. If they did sign a document for them, they would add their own initials to indicate such.

Scott
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posted 05-19-2007 09:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the new info. I assume you are referring to only their personal secretaries and not all NASA staff?

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-19-2007 09:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am referring to the secretaries who were assigned to the crew inside the astronaut office at the time when these were said to be mailed (1969 through the early 1970s).

It is of course possible that someone diverted mail from where it was supposed to go and then added these signatures, but then the questions are: who and why?

fabfivefreddy
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posted 05-19-2007 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fabfivefreddy   Click Here to Email fabfivefreddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice work Florian - an important finding. Hope you can get more examples.

Robert's info from the astronauts is interesting, however, I might add that many other celebrities have used secretarial sigs and denied their existence.

President Kennedy's staff (Pierre Salinger) denied the existence of autopens and secretarial sigs for a very long time).

That does not mean that the astronauts are deceiving us, they may simply not have known that this was being done. History has shown that secretaries have taken it upon themselves to do this for souvenior purposes.

I believe these are secretarial signatures and were likely done with the knowledge of very few people.

An interesting hobby indeed...

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-19-2007 02:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fabfivefreddy:
Robert's info from the astronauts...
I should point out that my information is not from the astronauts but directly from the supposed source: the secretaries themselves. I trust what they say. If the source of these signatures was NASA, then it was from someone other than those who were normally responsible for handling the astronauts' correspondence.

poofacio
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posted 05-19-2007 07:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for poofacio   Click Here to Email poofacio     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It would be a fair assumption that if someone had done it they would not be above denying it.

I believe it was Mae West who famously said "He would say that wouldn't he".

Ken Havekotte
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posted 05-19-2007 09:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Secretaries have signed for Mercury astronauts beforehand, but of course, there was always a understanding that if ever questioned, "they" would have no "knowledge of such a thing." This even happened with one of the ex-astros primary secretaries; she was ordered to "sign" fan mail for him, or do as she thought best under the circumstances since her boss was hardly never in the office. If her "signings" were questioned by anyone, she was told to deny any such practices. But with so much fan mail received in the mail room at MSC/JSC all throughout 1969 because of the first lunar landings, I would not at all be surprised if certain mail room clerks -- perhaps with approval from their supervisor(s) -- did in fact personally "handle" some autograph requests, especially concerning the Apollo 11 crew. Granted, receiving a secretarial signature for an active astronaut autograph request, is indeed wasn't/isn't a common practice.

But -- during the early 1970s -- I did in fact, as a young teenager, write to a pioneer astronaut and asked if he would sign a picture for me. Within a few weeks, inside one of NASA's own mailing envelopes, came back a litho that was inscribed to me with a long notation and signed. But guess what -- the signature and inscription was indeed a secretarial! In my mind there was absolutely no question about it not being authentic. But for hundreds of other requests mailed to every astronaut in the office, fortunately, most of my material appeared to be hand-signed and with some autopens, but not too many, here and there. Secretarials, though, were indeed certainly not the norm during that era (but -- from personal experiences -- not completely out of the question as I am trying to illustrate here).

gajs
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posted 05-21-2007 09:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gajs   Click Here to Email gajs     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Florian's observation is, I believe, correct and is a fine piece of deduction. His work on this issue clearly illustrates that more study needs to be done on the early astronauts.

Ken H's observations about being a young kid and requesting a signed photo is enlightening ~~ but not surprising. One has to think of the massive volume of mail these men were receiving daily. It has to be true that these secretarial signatures and inscriptions were the norm and not the exception.

One can't possibly believe that the astronauts took time to respond to every request that came in during busy launch or training times. Hundreds of requests were received daily. Classrooms all over the country, and from abroad, sent 30+ school kid letters at a time to these men -- requesting autographs -- and all were answered to some degree. There simply were not enough hours in the day to comply with these many requests. Thus the autopen, and secreterials were used.

Astronauts are not alone in this. I have letters from the secretaries of James Garfield, Herbert Hoover, Eisenhower, FDR, JFK and many others who all used a secretary to sign for them throughout their careers. I suspect, though have no proof, that it is probably true today that secretarial signatures are being used by the astronauts in addition to autopens. Who can fault them?

Robert Pearlman
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posted 05-21-2007 09:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have seen at events NASA hand out hundreds of autopenned crew photos -- all of the same crew -- and thus I don't to see why the autopen wouldn't suffice to answer the majority, if not all the mailed-in requests that were diverted from the astronauts' authentic signature. Just because presidents or other public figures have had their secretaries sign autographs does not mean that the Apollo 11 crew, specifically, did the same. That's not to say that other astronauts didn't have their secretaries sign (Shepard comes to mind, but there were others), but no one as of yet has provided any evidence to suggest that it was the secretaries that created these forgeries, or provided any reason to doubt the secretaries own statements on the subject. We can choose to trade in assumptions, but I don't see how that serves to further knowledge.
quote:
Originally posted by gajs:
It has to be true that these secretarial signatures and inscriptions were the norm and not the exception.
No, it doesn't have to true and the volume of vintage A11 signatures, both autopen and authentic, would suggest that it is not. Were the majority secretarials, Florian's examples would be far from the first identified.

spaced out
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posted 05-21-2007 10:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If we accept that the crew's official secretaries did not create these signatures there is always the possibility that temporary staff generated them.

I'm sure the Apollo 11 secretaries took vacations or sick leave from time-to-time. Maybe a temp struggling with the Autopen machine and desperate to clear a backlog of signature requests took it upon themselves to copy a few examples they had to hand.

I also seem to remember reading in one of the astro autobiographies that on a long trip where they had to sign hundreds of items they ended up signing some stuff for each other...

Matt T
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posted 05-21-2007 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Matt T   Click Here to Email Matt T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Although I was originally joking about John Young earlier in the thread it seems that 'astro forgers' may be a more realistic line of enquiry than I guessed.

Parallel to this thread there has been the discovery of likely Apollo 11 crew forgeries by Neil Armstrong. It creates a plausible scenario for the creation of these rarely occurring forgeries. It would be interesting to see how many of these styles appear on crew items, and on the occasions where they appear singly were they originally received in a bundle containing similar crew-signed items?

spaceflori
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posted 05-21-2007 11:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
While it's certainly a rare exception with astronauts (at least what we know today) that unauthorized people did sign for celebrities, it's way more common in other areas:

I've been told by a friend of the famous rock group Queen (Freddy Mercury) that members of the management indeed signed autographs for these guys and while they didn't know particulary in detail they silently approved that practice.

Also there was a scandal a couple years ago in German soccer when unauthorized people started to sign for players of Bayern Munchen until collectors discovered that practice.

And last but not least I heard of several collectors getting strange Borman signatures through the mail with their money gone (when he was still asking $ through the mail).

fabfivefreddy
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posted 05-21-2007 07:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fabfivefreddy   Click Here to Email fabfivefreddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An important piece of info would be the original envelope that the pieces were mailed in. That would better proof that they were signed by designated personnel at NASA.

Otherwise, it is mostly speculation.

Ken Havekotte
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posted 05-22-2007 12:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For Gerald, let me say that I honestly believe secretarial autographs of active NASA astronauts are certainly NOT the norm than compared to other autograph-collecting categories.

Remember, NASA astronauts -- past and present -- worked for the government's space programs that American taxpayers helped pay for. Non-astronaut celebrities in the entertainment and sports industries had no such association.

Answering and responding positively to NASA's fan mail, including autograph requests, was considered by many within the agency that worked closely with the astronaut corps (i.e. astronaut office workers, their secretaries, and public relations specialists) an important and vital public relations service. It has always been my belief, overall, that many astronaut autographs were indeed authentic with very little, or hardly any, secretarial signatures applied.

Yes, absolutely, thousands of requests were routed to the autopen machine -- many almost on a daily basis -- at NASA's Johnson Space Center.

As Robert pointed out, the space agency did apply autopens all the time. NASA even provided printed and/or fascimile signed photos and letters that many space workers, both government and contractor companies, received as a "thank you" for a job well done.

There was no need, in my opinion and after talking with many space agency folks that worked closely with the astronauts, to provide astronaut autograph requests by secretarial means. It just wasn't the standard procedure, but as I've tried to explain in an earlier post, I know from personal experience that it was done on at least ONE occasion -- to me -- but after hundreds of early astronaut-signature letter-writing attempts that were successful in obtaining genuine autographs.

Florian's recent discovery of Apollo 11 crew secretarials, perhaps are not "secretarials" at all, but rather from an individual(s) that was assigned during man's first lunar landing in 1969 to help out in the astronaut's mail room. Maybe even a zealous mail roon clerk, of course purely speculation, just thought he could "help" process the mail (for Apollo 11) much quicker and applied his/her autograph versions of an Armstrong, Aldrin, and Collins.

Whatever the case may be, however, we'll probably never know the full story and/or details for sure, huh?

MCroft04
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posted 07-05-2007 08:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MCroft04   Click Here to Email MCroft04     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rereading "Chariots for Apollo" by Pellegrino and Stoff, and on pages 233-234 there is a humerous story about Tommy Attridge, who apparently resembled Tom Stafford, signing autographs for Tom at a show (and on another occasion as well), and then at intermission Jim McDivitt signed for Tom, and even Mrs Stafford signed as Tom also. I'm not sure of the validity of this story, but if true I wonder what a Tom Stafford forgery by Jim McDivitt would be worth?

spaced out
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posted 11-25-2007 08:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When I saw the Armstrong and Collins on this piece they immediately reminded me of the 'astronaut office' fakes mentioned here.

This piece comes from someone who's been selling many perfect genuine crew signed and multi-signed items including stuff with genuine Armstrong sigs so I don't doubt this came from NASA.

From the distinctive style I would guess this was signed by the same person as many of the signatures above 'on behalf of' Armstrong and Collins.

Scott
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posted 11-25-2007 09:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree - the Armstrong and Collins definitely are this "NASA secretarial" style.

Wow, this person must have signed a very large number of autographs while at NASA. Thankfully the styles are very poor and distinctive.

spaceflori
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posted 05-09-2010 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I made an interesting discovery yesterday:

The Aldrin is one of the suspected unofficial secretarial signatures received from the astronaut office. Now this is the first time I have seen a letter coming with the photo, dated April 30, 1971 which is about the time these fake autographs were received.

It would be interesting to see if Cyril Baker is still alive, so one could question him what has happened then.

Go4Launch
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posted 05-09-2010 03:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Go4Launch   Click Here to Email Go4Launch     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mr. Baker died in 1982.

HelmetHair
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posted 05-13-2010 08:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for HelmetHair     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have no axe to grind, and am implying NOTHING, and intending to insult NO-ONE, but was struck by the "y" in "Cyril" compared to the "g" in "Armstrong."

Or is it just me?

spaced out
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From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 10-31-2010 03:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
At first glance I thought this new eBay listing was just a run-of-the-mill Armstrong forgery where someone had gone as far as forging an accompanying letter from NASA but there was something about the signature style that seemed familiar.

Indeed it appears to be a classic Armstrong NASA 'secretarial' signature, perfectly matching the style of previous examples we've seen.

The accompanying letter becomes interesting in this context. It is signed by Geneva Barnes and dated April 25, 1972. It also states that the original letter was received in November (1971) but that they were unable to reply sooner due to the volume of mail. This gives us a solid date for the creation of at least one of these 'secretarial' signatures, in this case a year later than the Aldrin example posted by Florian above.

spaceflori
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From: Germany
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posted 10-31-2010 03:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting... though we don't have a proof that this photo is actually the one Geneva Barnes is mentioning in her letter.

Could be very well mixed up with this clear "secretarial" style in order to make it look more authentic.

I have Armstrong signed photos with letters from Geneva Barnes from that time that are definitely authentic, so I question this offer here somehow...


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