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  Cernan-certified Apollo 17 'insurance covers' (Page 1)

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Author Topic:   Cernan-certified Apollo 17 'insurance covers'
capoetc
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posted 12-04-2010 08:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Picking up on an earlier discussion raised in the Apollo crew insurance covers thread, I received from a company called "American Astrophilately" and advertisement for a decent-sized cache of Apollo 17 "Insurance Covers" from Gene Cernan's personal collection and authenticated by him as insurance covers.

These covers are not canceled for the launch/landing/splashdown, but are canceled for the 20th and 30th anniversaries of the mission. They were signed by Cernan and Evans before the launch, but signed by Schmitt after they returned.

Here is the verbiage from that portion of the e-mail:

Apollo 17 Insurance Covers: The Apollo 17 covers are for sale at American Astrophilately. Each comes with a serialized supplemental sales receipt notarized to establish an unimpeachable providence (sic) from the Last Man on the Moon.

Collectors also receive a detailed history of how the covers were discovered, authenticated, and ownership transferred from Captain Cernan to you. Commander Cernan's personal Archivist, David Frohman of Peachstate Historical Consulting, Inc., feels strongly that learning the history, context, and providence [sic] of these covers is critical to understanding their real worth. For the past 15 years his firm has set the standard for these values related to space artifacts. We both encourage you to see the fine details at Peachstate Historical Consulting.

So, several questions:
  1. Do you agree that these are "insurance covers"? I would say not, although they still have value, particularly since they come directly from Gene Cernan.

  2. Is David Frohman really Gene Cernan's "personal archivist"?

  3. Does it concern anyone that an organization that wishes to sell valuable space memorabilia does not understand the difference between "provenance" and "providence"?
I guess we can let go the fact that they call him "Commander Cernan" ...granted he was the mission commander, but he retired as a Navy Captain.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 12-04-2010 08:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To provide further background, here is the e-mail from Peachstate Consulting (David Frohman) that preceded the American Astrophilately offer by David Ball.
I am pleased to announce my discovery and release of the Apollo 17 (yes, Apollo 17!) insurance covers! My discovery also represents the largest single hoard of insurance covers ever uncovered at one time!

Apollo 17 Insurance Covers have never been thought to exist due to fallout from the Apollo 15 cover scandal. However, I am pleased to report that Apollo 17 insurance covers do indeed exist and are now available for sale!

As such, it will now be possible to own a complete set of insurance covers from Apollo 11 through Apollo 17.

Because of the importance of this announcement, I have prepared a special website page for these covers. The page begins with a letter from me that provides both the background of my discovery and all of the specifics.

That said, and without giving too much away in this e-mail...

  1. The covers are all serially-numbered, and as such will be sold by serial number beginning with serial number 7.

  2. The issue price of the covers is $495.00, which includes free domestic FedEX shipping.

  3. The lowest serial numbers will be issued on a "first-come" basis, along with any specific serial number requests.
With this said, I now invite you to view my complete Apollo 17 insurance cover presentation by clicking here.

I have also partnered with noted space philatelic expert David Ball, author of "American Astrophilately: The First 50 Years".

David has worked both as an independent consultant and researcher on this project for Peachstate, and will also co-market the covers to his own clientele as an official distributor.

David has prepared a summary of his thoughts on the significance of these covers in a question and answer format. Please click on the following links to read each page of David's three-page letter:

I am delighted to inform you of these covers, and look forward to giving everyone the chance to complete their cover sets!

yeknom-ecaps
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posted 12-04-2010 11:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for yeknom-ecaps   Click Here to Email yeknom-ecaps     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Are these "insurance covers"?

Depends on the definition used... generally I have assumed the definition to be crew signed covers that were signed before the flight, postmarked during the flight and kept by the families in case something happened.

Not being an insurance cover expert I am just giving some thoughts for others to comment on...

  • other mission insurance covers were signed by the entire crew and each family received some of the covers, in this case it seems to be only Cernan who has them - nothing ever released from Evans estate or from Schmitt in terms of an insurance cover that I am aware of

  • other missions covers were cancelled for the mission date(s) not anniversary dates, This is a wide variation for sure from other mission's insurance covers but who determines what postmark date makes the cover an insurance cover or not?

  • Cernan states they were for insurance purposes so, even though they deviate, why wouldn't they be considered as insurance covers?

  • Have heard (I did not do any confirmation research) that NASA test pilot Mike Love signed a number of covers for his completed flights (e.g. X-24B) that his family had as "insurance" in case of his death - which unfortunately did occur in a test flight. My point is there is the potential for many varieties of "insurance covers" so what is the definition?

So agree with capoetc in that these are not what collectors would think of as an Apollo mission insurance cover but I think they are insurance cover if they were created for that purpose by Cernan.

Bob M
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posted 12-04-2010 12:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob M   Click Here to Email Bob M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These Apollo 17 double cancel anniversary crew signed covers have been around for a while and Capt./Commander Cernan had a number on sale at Novaspace/Astro-Auction a while back - but not advertised as insurance covers then.

Apparently, as we are now told by his personal archivist (aka David Frohman), Cernan intended for them to be full-fledged insurance covers but failed in a number of ways, as has been mentioned.

There are a number of strict requirements for a cover to be deemed an actual and legitimate Apollo insurance cover and these covers fail in just about every way. More is needed than just *intent* and apologies to Cernan, and his personal archivist, but these covers, realistically, are just very nice Apollo 17 crew signed anniversary covers.

yeknom-ecaps
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posted 12-04-2010 01:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for yeknom-ecaps   Click Here to Email yeknom-ecaps     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bob M:
Capt./Commander Cernan had a number on sale at Novaspace/Astro-Auction a while back - but not advertised as insurance covers then.
Bob - do you remember on Astro-Auction if the ones offered had the "insurance" stamp and numbering? If not and some were sold then (1) not all the "insurance covers" are numbered and accounted for as stated in the e-mails (2) those that bought don't have a "proper" documentation of their covers (3) was Cernan later "convinced they were" versus "stated they were" created for insurance purposes?

randyc
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posted 12-04-2010 01:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for randyc   Click Here to Email randyc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This item highlights a discussion that I have had over the years with fellow collectors regarding how we, as collectors, can be absolutely certain that an item has been flown or once belonged to an astronaut. Without discussing some of the ways that can be used as provenance one way that has always been accepted by collectors is a Certificate of Authenticity or some other documentation (including writing on the item itself) from an astronaut (preferably one that flew on the mission) that the item was flown. I believe that this type of provenance applies here as well.

I've seen these covers offered before as an 'Insurance' cover, but never with the provenance that is now being provided, so I didn't buy one. Now, however, Gene Cernan has stated, in writing, that they were intended as an 'Insurance' cover. Do they meet the 'standard' for previous insurance covers? No, because Harrison Schmitt didn't sign them before the mission and because they weren't cancelled on the launch day or some other significant day of the mission. But what we don't know is if Captain Cernan did have these signed by himself and Ronald Evans and gave them to his family before launch with instructions to divide them among the crew's families, if required, for insurance purposes. Why Harrison Schmitt didn't sign them, and why they weren't cancelled on launch day are questions whose answers would be nice to know. But just like any other item certified by an astronaut we, as collectors, take them at their word.

So, if Captain Cernan says that they are Apollo 17 Insurance covers then I have to believe him. And yes, I ordered one because I want to be sure that I have a complete set of insurance covers and didn't want to wait for the 'smoke to clear' while other collectors debate their validity. Besides, they aren't much more than any other Apollo 17 crew-signed cover, and the way they are presented and the additional letters of provenance, to me, are worth the extra money.

If we can't trust the provenance from Captain Cernan for this item, does this mean that we should question the provenance of other items that have an astronaut's certification?

mjanovec
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posted 12-04-2010 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I feel that this link to the page showing Cernan's signed presentation is telling. In the writeup, Cernan speculates that the covers "could have been sold" had he not returned safely to the Earth. Indeed, he points out that Schmitt didn't sign the covers until after they landed...not exactly the ideal time to sign an "insurance" cover. While the writeup has been carefully worded (most likely with considerable input from the dealer) to make it seem like these are insurance covers, it's clear they do not meet the criteria for the standard crew insurance covers created earlier in the Apollo program.

The "Insurance Cover No." stamp wasn't applied until 2009, probably as a result of the dealer further trying to "dress up" these covers. At best, I think this added stamp is fanciful. At worst, it could be seen as deceptive and misleading. (Note: I don't think Cernan himself is trying to mislead anyone...he simply may not have understood the criteria behind crew signed insurance covers. Also, I suspect Cernan no longer owns these covers and has little stake in their sale at this point.)

Going further, I personally think the added "Insurance Cover No." stamp detracts overall from the cover and cheapens its value. It turns this item from a nice anniversary-canceled crew-signed cover into a muddied attempt to create an insurance cover. I think the dealer saw an opportunity to create an item that would fill a "hole" is most cover collectors collections...and he tried to capitalize on it.

Personally speaking, I would not be "delighted" to own one of these.

mjanovec
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posted 12-04-2010 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by randyc:
If we can't trust the provenance from Captain Cernan for this item, does this mean that we should question the provenance of other items that have an astronaut's certification?

The question is, how much of that provenance is just carefully crafted text that the dealer drew up...and how much is language that Cernan himself created? If Cernan had "help" writing up that presentation, he may not have realized the implications of how it was worded.

To address the broader question, however, of whether we should question the provenance supplied by astronauts or not...I think the answer is a most definite: Why not? I think we're all fooling ourselves if we think the memories of these 70-80+ year old men might not be a little rusty. Plus, they're human...just like the rest of us...capable of making mistakes. Let's face it, these men had more on their minds 40-50 years ago than preserving and cataloging artifacts for their collections for later re-sale. There is a possibility that items could easily get jumbled together...both in their collection and in their memories.

Yet, I constantly see dealers and auction houses using words like "unimpeachable" and "iron clad" whenever an astronaut provides a COA. If an astronaut pulls an artifact out of their closet and thinks it might be flown, all he has to do is to write up a COA attesting that it is flown...and suddenly the artifact is worth it's weight in gold (at least figuratively, if not literally)...and nobody seems willing to entertain any other possibilities at that point. And while I would never accuse an astronaut of knowingly "coloring" the history of an artifact in their collection (at least not without evidence of them doing so), sometimes I think it wouldn't hurt if collectors put a little more scrutiny on what the astronauts are consigning to auction...just to insure the astronaut's memory matches with reality.

(I should point out that some dealers and collectors do sometimes sit down with astronauts and help them catalog their items as accurately as possible. Those efforts, if done correctly, should be applauded.)

randyc
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posted 12-04-2010 02:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for randyc   Click Here to Email randyc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mark (mjanovec) makes quite a few assumptions and conclusions in his post. For example:
  1. He doesn't know what Captain Cernan's intent was with these covers. They were signed by Ron Evans and himself BEFORE the flight
  2. He doesn't know if Cernan's family was given these covers prior to the launch and what instructions they were given (maybe they were to be used as insurance covers only for Ron Evans and himself) and
  3. He assumes that Captain Cernan's 'arm was twisted' when he signed the CoA.
Personally, as the saying goes, I have 'no dog in this fight'. I've never bought anything from Mr. Frohman before today, and I didn't buy several of these covers as 'investments', so I have no need to defend them from an investment standpoint. If a collector chooses not to purchase one that's their decision. But, once again, with Captains Cernan's CoA as provenance I didn't want to pass it up and find out later that the collecting community 'changed it's mind' and now I have to pay three times as much to complete my Insurance cover set.

And regarding adding the insurance cover words to the cover - remember that the flown Apollo 15 covers had words (and serial numbers) stating that they were flown to the Hadley Plain, and that flown covers that were in quarantine had words added stating that they were held in quarantine, thus explaining the date they they were cancelled (three weeks after completion of the mission). Because the cancellation dates on these covers are well after the Apollo 17 mission was over the additional words that they are insurance covers, with serial numbers, is important.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 12-04-2010 02:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tangential to this discussion, with regards to David Ball's three page letter (as linked above), he does appear to have made a minor error.

He notes (on page 2) that Pete Conrad forgot to take his wife's envelopes on Apollo 12 and so they were flown on Apollo 15. According to NASA's release documenting what was carried on that later mission, the Apollo 12 covers belonged to Barbara Gordon, Dick Gordon's wife.

As mentioned, it's a minor distinction but should those purchasing these covers be keeping a copy the letter with them, they may want to note the correction for posterity's sake.

Bob M
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posted 12-04-2010 02:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob M   Click Here to Email Bob M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With the help of Capt. Cernan's "personal archivist," we have been bestowed the priviledge of acquiring recently finished Apollo 17 insurance covers. While Capt. Cernan did apparently intend for them to be insurance covers, he failed to carry out the necessary steps. But no matter, with his personal archivist as a guide, his covers, with fresh rubber stamp impressions, were transformed into official insurance covers.

While some may fall all over themselves in a dash for these anniversary covers, others will watch from a distance while the others gobble up these recently contrived creations.

mjanovec
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posted 12-04-2010 02:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Randy - One must draw their own assumptions and conclusions from the evidence that is provided. Unless the dealer (or Cernan) provide us with additional detail to clarify the matter, we can only go by what we've been told so far.
quote:
Originally posted by randyc:
He doesn't know what Captain Cernan's intent was with these covers. They were signed by Ron Evans and himself BEFORE the flight
Cernan's original intent for the covers was not provided on the signed presentation. If he had intended these to be insurance covers prior to the flight, it should have been mentioned in the presentation. (And, of course, there is that odd matter of Schmitt not signing the covers before the flight.) Instead, he simply mentions they "could have been sold" by his family had an accident occurred. Is that something he intended from Day 1...or is that an observation in hindsight?
quote:
He doesn't know if Cernan's family was given these covers prior to the launch and what instructions they were given and
Again, to whom Cernan gave the covers before the launch and what instructions were left with the covers is something not provided in the presentation. If Cernan had specifically handed the covers to his wife and said, "Sell these if I don't return," then that's something that probably should have been included on the presentation... so there would be no doubt as to their intent.
quote:
He assumes that Captain Cernan's 'arm was twisted' when he signed the CoA.
I never said Cernan's arm was "twisted." However, I do speculate that the dealer may have been careful to make sure that certain language was included in the presentation... in order to help sell people on the meaning behind these covers.

The way I see it, there is still enough doubt in my mind that these covers were truly designed to be insurance covers. Other collectors will have to make up their own minds, based on the available evidence.

randyc
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posted 12-04-2010 02:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for randyc   Click Here to Email randyc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By the way, I didn't 'fall all over myself' in a rush to purchase one of these covers. Having collected space covers for over 40 years, and working in the space program for over 30 years I have the knowledge and experience to analyze information associated with both areas and make very good informed decisions (collectors who have seen my collection can attest to that). That being said, I realize that there may be (or will be) a 'cloud of uncertainty' associated with these covers. So be it. But, as I stated, they aren't much more than what another dealer is selling them for, and, although it is a calculated risk, I felt that the benefits outweighed the risks.

And keep this in mind- I have the Apollo 11 Insurance covers which, at one time, belonged to one of the Apollo 11 astronauts, but I don't have any provenance regarding which one. There are Apollo 11 Insurance covers that once belonged to Buzz Aldrin's ex-wife, and they include a photo of them with her in the CoA. There are also Apollo 15 Insurance covers that belonged to Jim Irwin's wife, with provenance provided by her. These particular covers include a CoA from Cernan, and, like the Apollo 11 covers from Joan Aldrin's collection, show Captain Cernan with them. Therefore these covers, and only these covers, are shown with Captain Cernan, and are serialized appropriately. Does this add additional value or desirability? I'll leave that up to the collecting community.

If it can be proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that these covers were 'manufactured' then I still have a nice Mission Emblem crew-signed cover with a very interesting history!

Bob M
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posted 12-04-2010 02:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob M   Click Here to Email Bob M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No, Randy, I'm sure you didn't go overboard after these, and as a serious collector, you made a careful decision. But also as a long-time serious collector (you've got me by two years), I feel that these Apollo 17 "insurance covers," if accepted as full-fledged members of the elite Apollo insurance cover fraternity, will somewhat cheapen and lower the standards of Apollo insurance covers as a whole. Maybe at best, they be allowed in as "semi-official" insurance covers.

As it now stands, entering that fraternity is difficult and the standards very high, but the standards will be lowered after allowing these Apollo 17 anniversary covers inside. Many think it best that they stay outside and accept their "commoner" status as crew signed anniversary covers.

yeknom-ecaps
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posted 12-04-2010 03:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for yeknom-ecaps   Click Here to Email yeknom-ecaps     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by capoetc:
Does it concern anyone that an organization that wishes to sell valuable space memorabilia does not understand the difference between "provenance" and "providence"?
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
David Ball's letter...

He notes (on page 2) that Pete Conrad forgot to take his wife's envelopes on Apollo 12 and so they were flown on Apollo 15. According to NASA's release documenting what was carried on that later mission, the Apollo 12 covers belonged to Barbara Gordon, Dick Gordon's wife.


Hmmmm... shows why comments on being careful with facts and wording are important.

randyc
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posted 12-04-2010 03:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for randyc   Click Here to Email randyc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bob M:
But also as a long-time serious collector (you've got me by two years)
Bob - to be exact I've been collecting space covers for over 42 years (since late 1967) but I didn't want to disclose my real age!

I'm not sure whether the 'release' of this batch of covers will 'cheapen' the insurance cover fraternity. The other insurance covers are what they are - they were intended for use as insurance had the astronauts not returned. I don't believe that these covers change that. But once again, time will tell.

By the way, what does the collecting community think about the Apollo 13 'Insurance' covers that were signed by Lovell, Haise and Mattingly BEFORE the flight and Swigert AFTER the flight? Those covers sell for a premium compared to the covers signed only by Lovell, Haise and Mattingly.

Yes, I know the addition of Swigert is desirable, but he signed AFTER he returned.

Bob M
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posted 12-04-2010 03:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob M   Click Here to Email Bob M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regarding Apollo 13 plus Swigert signed insurance covers: Getting a little technical, but for total purists, Swigert's autograph ex-flight is an unnecessary add-on and probably not desirable. But to be a complete crew signed cover (Ken Mattingly/Gary Sinese watched the launch from JSC, or beside the launch pad going by the movie) would require Swigert's autograph.

Since I'm not quite a purist, I'd sure want Swigert's autograph on the covers to be complete crew signed covers (hated to just miss Walt Cunningham's sale of crew signed covers a few years ago, including Apollo 13 crew signed insurance covers, with Swigert, for *only* $900).

Spacefest
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posted 12-04-2010 04:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacefest   Click Here to Email Spacefest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting... Cernan has been providing identical covers to me since 1999, as part of his "Garage Sale" on our Astro-Auction. I have sold 50-75. I have about 25 left, postmarked at various times and years, some numbered on the front, some on the back, some not, all crew-signed, all with the Manned Spacecraft Stamp Club and Apollo 17 cachet. I was made to understand each crew member had 150. In fact I just sold one, no doubt as a result of this letter.

I had thought of myself as Cernan's "personal archivist", but I've evidently been supplanted in that role. What am I to do with all these boxes of Cernan stuff?

Ron Evans did not sign the covers until '88 or so. I don't think Cernan signed them before the flight. He told me that these weren't insurance covers, but anniversary covers he got cancelled on anniversaries of the launch, moon landing and ascent.

It appears Frohman is up to his old tricks and puffery, not doing his homework, and depending on memories of 40 years ago.

DChudwin
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posted 12-04-2010 05:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DChudwin   Click Here to Email DChudwin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I regard these covers as what they are -- crew-signed ANNIVERSARY covers. They have good provenance from Capt. Cernan and, as Kim Poor points out, they were available for several years on Astro-Auction.

What has happened is that Mr. Frohman is hyping them as insurance covers -- which they are not.

Apollo 17 was launched after the Apollo 15 cover controversy and the astronauts were not allowed to carry covers on board. It can also be surmised but not proven that they were discouraged from any commercial activity involving covers. This is likely why the covers were not cancelled for the launch nor for many years later after the Apollo 15 controversy died down.

I decided in the past not to buy these from Kim Poor, and the additions made by Mr. Frohman solidify my opinion. But everyone is free to do what they want.

capoetc
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posted 12-04-2010 05:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capoetc   Click Here to Email capoetc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Spacefest:
Ron Evans did not sign the covers until '88 or so. I don't think Cernan signed them before the flight. He told me that these weren't insurance covers, but anniversary covers he got cancelled on anniversaries of the launch, moon landing and ascent.
Kim - Thanks for posting that information -- you are, of course, the only one who would have known that!

rjurek349
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posted 12-04-2010 06:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rjurek349   Click Here to Email rjurek349     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And what about the covers being sold via Heritage from the Evans family? How do they fit into the mix? There were two such covers sold from the Evans family. See this past auction list.

These covers are very different from the ones being offered here. These covers are signed by the crew, in the same pen; Schmitt signed them, but using "Harrison" and not "Jack"; it is canceled on launch day; it has the McCall stamp, not the flag stamps; it was given to a family member. These seem distinctly different from the "Anniversary Covers" and more like than not match the traditional thresholds of what the community would call an insurance cover, no?

randyc
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posted 12-04-2010 06:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for randyc   Click Here to Email randyc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kim, since you know Gene Cernan well, how about contacting him about the covers being offered by David Frohman. Ask him:
  1. Did he and Ron Evans sign them before the Apollo 17 launch?
  2. Why didn't Jack Schmitt sign them?
  3. Were these really meant to be insurance covers?
  4. Were they given to his family before the launch, and what were their instructions should he not return?
  5. Does he stand by the CoA that he signed?
  6. If he didn't mention to you (Kim) that these were meant to be insurance covers (and were available to the families should the crew not return) why is he now saying that they are?
Although Gene Cernan may not remember all the details surrounding these covers some of these questions are pretty basic. Since he's still available for 'consultation' it shouldn't be difficult to get additional information from him and put the provenance/purpose of these covers behind us.

Heck, if I knew his telephone number I would call him myself!

Spacefest
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posted 12-04-2010 06:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacefest   Click Here to Email Spacefest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rjurek349:
And what about the covers being sold via Heritage from the Evans family?
The plot thickens. Rich (Heritage's) cover is different than "mine." I glanced at it in 2009, but figured it was one I had sold before on AA. Many auction items are.

The "Harrison" is his preferred name today. "Jack" is usually indicative of earlier signatures. He signed the Moonwalkers prints "Jack" in 2004, but he had also signed "Jack" in 1986 or so on some of them, and just wanted all to match.

So no telling when these were signed by Schmitt. I've got a note in to him, but don't expect an answer. Jan may be helpful.

Cancellations don't lie. This is indeed a launch cover. I never got any of these.

DOX32
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posted 12-04-2010 06:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DOX32   Click Here to Email DOX32     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I bought the identical cover from Astro-Auction with the Gene Cernan Garage Sale COA. The postmark dates are DEC 7 1997 and DEC 7 2002.

These insurance covers are postmarked DEC 7 1992 and DEC 7 2002, so although they look the same, the newly offered "insurance covers" are postmarked five years earlier for the first PM.

All three signed.

yeknom-ecaps
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From: Northville MI USA
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 12-04-2010 08:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for yeknom-ecaps   Click Here to Email yeknom-ecaps     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rjurek349:
And what about the covers being sold via Heritage from the Evans family? How do they fit into the mix? There were two such covers sold from the Evans family.

Lots of astronauts and test pilots had/have signed covers in "their collection" and given to other family members. For example, when requesting signatures from NASA test pilot John Manke I always sent along a few extra of his flights as he mentioned he signed them and gave them out to his relatives.

Nothing in the listing said anything about the Evans cover being an "insurance" or "insurance-type" cover. So just another nice crew signed cover from an astronaut's personal collection.

Ken Havekotte
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Posts: 3784
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 12-04-2010 08:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
While at KSC's crew quarters in preparation for the nation's final manned lunar landing mission, the Apollo 17 crew signed and was known to give away a few Apollo 17 crew-emblem cachet covers of a different variety.

These were not the known MSCSC format, but envelopes bearing a VIC/HQS cachet for Apollo 17 that were available to crewmembers at the nearby administration building here at Kennedy.

It appears that only a small limited number of them were signed pre-launch and given, from what I was told, to a very limited few within their inner circle; key high-ranking management staff, astronaut office friends-workers, and very top launch team executives.

While only a few of them have surfaced in recent years, what is their comparison or possible relationship to the "crew-owned," or initial "Cernan covers," referred to here?

Remember; After the big Apollo 15 lunar cover episode, NASA frowned big-time on such activities. It has been my understanding that upcoming assigned crewmembers wanted to stay far away from anysort of cover ties to crews, rather personal or not.

Therefore, why would Apollo 17 astronauts pre-sign and give-away any cachet covers of their mission in the first place? Such is the case with the creator of the special Bishop astronaut insignia covers. While they were printed for all prior lunar landing mission (except Apollo 11), Bishop did absolutely nothing for the Apollo 17 crew.

Can more light be shed from either Cernan or Schmitt concerning both cover types?

Why were the "Cernan covers" not signed pre-launch by all crewmembers--perhaps because of the prior cover episode--and why not have any of them cancelled for launch or any other milestone flight event(s)?

Any official crew status here as insurance covers? I don't see how on many standards, but of course, just my opinion for wahtever it may be worth.

As a sidebar topic here, there were only 3 "official types" of Apollo 17 crew-emblem covers printed; MSCSC, VIC/HQS, and HQS w/facsimile crew sigs. There is, however, another special one-of-sorts, but that requires another story.

randyc
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Posts: 897
From: Denver, CO USA
Registered: May 2003

posted 12-04-2010 08:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for randyc   Click Here to Email randyc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What I find interesting about the cover in the Heritage auction and the covers being sold by Peachstate is the location of the signatures. In both 'versions' Cernan and Evans signed in the same area, leaving Harrison Schmitt to sign where he did. Also, as Kim pointed out, Dr. Schmitt seemed to prefer signing 'Jack' before the 1990s. I wrote to him several times in the 1980s, and almost all of the time he signed with 'Jack', although a very few items were signed 'Harrison'. Thus the reason I said that it appeared he 'preferred' to sign with 'Jack'.

Here's my point- it looks as if Cernan and Evans could have signed the Peachstate cover before launch because the signatures are in almost the exact same locations as the cover from Evans personal collection with a 1972 cancellation. And because Dr. Schmitt signed the Peachstate covers using 'Jack' they MAY have been signed after the mission because of his preference back then to sign using Jack.

This is certainly not compelling evidence to support the Peachstate claim; just additional information for consideration.

By the way, 'Insurance' covers were created by the Apollo 16 crew, and Charlie Duke brought some covers with him to the Moon. Although it's true that after the Apollo 15 'incident' the crewmembers were certainly cautious, it's NOT true that after Apollo 15 no insurance-type covers were made, nor is it true that no covers were taken to the Moon.

Ken Havekotte
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Posts: 3784
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 12-04-2010 09:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ken Havekotte   Click Here to Email Ken Havekotte     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Randy, just saw your posting and let me briefly add that known pre-signed crew covers from Apollo 17, that I know of -- including those referred to in my above posting -- were signed "Harrison H Schmitt" in a slight upward angle alongside the LMP's emblem printed last name.

I can also confirm, without question in my mind, that many of Apollo 17 crew-portrait glossies were pre-launch signed from crew quarters in Schmitt's full name. But other signature patterns of the lunar scientist-explorer does indeed vary, even during the early/mid-1970s, with Harrison, H H, and Jack.

NAAmodel#240
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Posts: 359
From: Boston, Mass.
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 12-04-2010 10:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NAAmodel#240   Click Here to Email NAAmodel#240     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I thank divine providence (not provenance) for friends like Robert and Tom to help me keep my facts straight. In American Astrophilately I correctly recounted that Barbara Gordon collected covers and wrote it wrong here. My apologies.

It is surprising how visceral and passionate some of the comments in this thread have been. Some generate light and others just heat. Whether the envelope I sell that Captain Cernan (as an Air Force guy I may have played a little loose with Navy rank) says is an Insurance cover really is one is debatable. Yeknom-caps and I went back and forth last night hashing it out (though I’m not sure where it left us).

Some of the comments were curious. Mjanovec groused that Insurance Cover # was applied in 2009 to dress up the cover, something he regarded as somewhere between fanciful and deceptive. We all want an unambiguous chain of custody and here it is. Something that I appreciate about David Frohman is his meticulous documentation. Many of us can’t say whether our Insurance covers actually belonged to the astronauts or whether they were signed pre or post mission. In this case he drafted three pages about exactly how he found them (while cataloging for Cernan) as well marking each cover, photographing them and attaching a supplemental sales receipt.

All I can tell you is last year Captain Cernan sold Peachstate 250 envelopes that the astronaut said were Apollo 17 Insurance covers. The Astrophilatelic community can certainly debate whether a pilot has the right to tell a stamp collector what an Insurance cover is. There are also purists who simply will not exhibit a cover with a commemorative postmark. If you want what is available for an Apollo 17 Insurance cover Captain Cernan says here it is.

mjanovec
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Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 12-05-2010 12:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by NAAmodel#240:
If you want what is available for an Apollo 17 Insurance cover Captain Cernan says here it is.

If one accepts that those are indeed insurance covers, then one must also accept that these are insurance covers too... just lacking the extra text added in 2009, but also $100 cheaper.

DMScott
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Posts: 359
From: Lexington, MA, USA
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 12-05-2010 02:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DMScott   Click Here to Email DMScott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a fascinating discussion. I have two things to add:
  1. I am extremely glad that I do not collect envelopes.

  2. The company called "American Astrophilately," who I have never heard of nor recall ever doing business with, broke the law by spamming my inbox with an unsolicited email message about envelopes. FTC rules were broken because the sender of this message harvested my email address from somewhere and put me on a list that, as far as I can tell, does not have an opt-out mechanism.

spaceflori
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Posts: 1536
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000

posted 12-05-2010 04:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great discussion and facts presented - cS at its best!!!

To be a bit on the sarcastic side I would not only agree with Mark that those sold by Novaspace are insurance covers, too, but they also lack the stamping and alteration of the cover on the front thus making it even more desirable now in my opinion.

Ultimately everyone has to decide himself whether these covers are insurance covers to him or not. Lets not condemn or glorify this sale in any way - it's an offer everybody can decide whether to buy or not.

As Randy however said, the price including shipping is more than fair since generic crew-signed Apollo 17 covers have been selling at Superior up to $700 already, so with this nice story behind it (no matter if 100% correct or not) they will always be of interest. Fact is these are 100% genuine covers.

I disagree strongly with Dave however - collecting covers is not different to most other topics.

There is a certain point in every hobby where you have to accept something as given or better stop collecting anything at all.

Rembrandt's paintings (and other old artists) were often done by students, yet considered his artwork.

Later Apollo recovery covers were NOT postmarked on the ship but on the shore (officially). Apollo 11 FDCs have been cancelled for months and not on September 9th and so on - you will find an issue with almost anything if you search long enough.

Florian

NAAmodel#240
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Posts: 359
From: Boston, Mass.
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 12-05-2010 07:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for NAAmodel#240   Click Here to Email NAAmodel#240     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My apologies to Dave Scott (DMScott) for the unwelcome and unsolicited email. My name is David Ball (originally from MA) and I wrote the book American Astrophilately (which won the Gold Medal for Literature from the American Philatelic Society in August). In promoting my website this week (I very much enjoy yours) I used two email services, Constant Contact (which I know has an opt-out provision) and another from my ISP (which I thought had and will investigate tomorrow).

I will take you off my list and beg your pardon.

rjurek349
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Posts: 1223
From: Northwest Indiana
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 12-05-2010 08:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rjurek349   Click Here to Email rjurek349     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With all due respect to those involved, I have a problem with how these are being "numbered" and marketed.

These covers have been on the market for years now. Debate definition on insurance cover all you want (I do not consider these such -- but Anniversary Covers... I consider the Evans one more of a traditional insurance cover, but that is my two cents and I am welcome to it), but in the end, the artificial numbering of this subset of these ALREADY WELL KNOWN (not newly discovered) covers is disengenuous at best.

Why? Because they are artificially making these newly labeled covers seem somehow different or better than the pristine or pure covers already out in the marketplace. That's like taking a rare, first edition book by an author and stamping on it "RARE, FIRST EDITION" in bold letters and selling it as somehow better than the clean copy. (Try selling THAT back to a rare book dealer....)

These newly stamped and numbered set of covers can only serve as an INVENTORY number for the Frohman/Ball covers, and not of the complete pool of these cover-types available. Anything else is just patently misleading.

I agree with Florian on that point -- the one's offered for sale via Novaspace have suddenly become more rare, as they are in "original" condition. So if they are to be considered insurance covers, I'd rather have one in original condition as intended, and not all "stamped up" with marketing spin.

Bob M
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Posts: 1897
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 12-05-2010 08:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob M   Click Here to Email Bob M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by NAAmodel#240:
My name is David Ball (originally from MA) and I wrote the book American Astrophilately (which won the Gold Medal for Literature from the American Philatelic Society in August).
Perhaps criticism, or some of it, is being misdirected somewhat here. I, and surely many others, can vouch for David Ball's honesty and integrity, and surely he only had the best intentions in being involved with the sale of the now becoming infamous Apollo 17 "insurance covers."

Sometimes honest and well-meaning people are impressed and fall in with the wrong crowd, and it appears that that has happened here.

Larry McGlynn
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Posts: 1423
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 12-05-2010 09:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Larry McGlynn   Click Here to Email Larry McGlynn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I look at these "insurance" covers as marketing's version of "trying to put lipstick on the pig." Gene had a cache of covers and during Peachstate's evaluation of his collection, David Frohman purchased them. Then Frohman did his usual extreme marketing display on a cover that has been on the market for years.

Now that Mr. Ball has commented on David Frohman's "meticulous documentation," I feel it is fair to discuss that subject. Let's be clear, these covers are all about labeling and marketing. This has nothing to do with research and documentation. This is about doing just enough research to move these covers. In the past, I have found Peachstate's knowledge, research and documentation to be shallow and shoddy. A wonderful example of such documentation sits on Peachstate's own website.

Just scroll down to the Apollo 16 Core Tube Socket and look at the meticulous COAs that are on exhibit there. Look at the serial numbers listed on both COAs for the same artifact. They are different. That is a serious mistake in the presentation and documentation of a rare lunar surface artifact. A mistake that, with the help of Charlie Duke, has been corrected. This is not the only error in documentation and research that Peachstate has made with artifacts.

Maybe it is time to set some parameters in the hobby about what constitutes alteration of an original artifact or collectible.

rjurek349
Member

Posts: 1223
From: Northwest Indiana
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 12-05-2010 09:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rjurek349   Click Here to Email rjurek349     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bob M:
...surely he only had the best intentions in being involved with the sale of the now becoming infamous Apollo 17 "insurance covers."
Bob, for me, and again with all due respect, intent is at issue here. You are spot on. But intent and reality are two different things.

The COA for the Frohman/Ball covers implies that Cernan retained these covers all these years, and did not issue them to collectors as others had done. That is wrong. They've been circulated from the Cernan collection for years -- especially via Novaspace and with a Cernan COA. Compound that with implying a) that it is a "new" discovery, and b) that the stamped numbering implies exclusivity of the set/type, and you have more of an issue. For an unsuspecting buyer, they think they are getting something rare and unique and one-of-a-kind from a rare lot: and they are not.

The intent in this case is, unfortunately, misleading, and not only a disservice to the collector, both newbie and not, but also to Gene Cernan as well. The wording is slippery, and given the context of the true history of this cover-type, easily misunderstood.

The shame of the matter is, I think them more valuable as they were -- Anniversary Covers, kept and treasured by the last moonwalker, who, out of appreciation for his own mission, over the years, dutifully had these covers canceled on anniversary dates. It is a beautiful and loving tribute. To attempt to twist it and repackage into a mold that, personally for me, doesn't fit, and to try to embellish a sense of rarity that is artificial, leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Honestly, the more I read the "story" and compare it with what has been known about these covers already in the market all these years, the more it bothers me, especially for the unsuspecting collector who is thinking one thing, but actually getting something completely different.

DOX32
Member

Posts: 242
From: Lakewood Ranch FL USA
Registered: Jul 2004

posted 12-05-2010 09:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DOX32   Click Here to Email DOX32     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This has been one of the better strings I have seen.

I agree with Florian's comments.

Please note the post mark dates and stamps on the cover I got in the "Cernan Garage Sale" are different, so there are several different types of these Apollo 17 covers out there.

Thank you, David, for your prompt excellent clarifying comments. See you in Charleston!

randyc
Member

Posts: 897
From: Denver, CO USA
Registered: May 2003

posted 12-05-2010 11:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for randyc   Click Here to Email randyc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Consider this - I understand that these covers have been available for several years without the additional markings, and since they originated from the same source (Captain Cernan) then, if the collecting community (or the collectors who bought them) consider the 'marked' covers as insurance covers then the 'unmarked' covers should also be considered insurance covers.

Here's the difference - the ones that are marked absolutely originate from Cernan's personal collection. They are the ones stacked in front of him in the photo on the CoA. The other ones probably (definitely?) originated from Captain Cernan but aren't represented in the photo. This is just like other insurance covers - some are annotated that they are from an astronaut's personal collection and some are not. Although Captain Cernan did not specifically write that on these covers (which would have been a nice bonus) the fact that they are the ones directly shown in the photo (and identified as such by the additional markings) COULD make them more desirable than the 'unmarked' covers. That, of course, is up to the individual collector.

By the way I also find this discussion interesting and informative!

Spacefest
Member

Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009

posted 12-05-2010 11:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacefest   Click Here to Email Spacefest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think it boils down to who told whom these were insurance covers. I have a hunch.

With the now-defaced anniversary covers ("It MUST be an insurance cover. Says so right here!")

I'm also curious how the Schmitt and Evans covers will be received, or will they become separate "discoveries."

Peachstate is becoming synonymous with "scam" as in "Peachstate forgery." These will become known as "Peachstate covers." Like Riser covers and Sieger covers, denoting some controversy.


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