posted 12-06-2010 07:45 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by capoetc:
The issue is: Do these A17 commemorative covers meet the established standard to be called "insurance covers"?

---

posted 12-07-2010 06:16 AM               

Note the "new style" of Cernan's autograph on it. To the best of my knowledge, the last moonwalker never underscored his signature before he flew to the moon a second time.

In addition, there are a few other different characteristics about it when examining Cernan post-Apollo 17 signature patterns.

Remember, there is another point to consider when seeing a cover like this. As with subsequent Apollo lunar flights, members of the MSCSC usually were able to obtain crew signatures on their own club covers, not astronaut owned.

As part of an arrangement for providing crewmembers with their own mission stamp club envelopes, the crew was known to sign a limited few to certain stamp club members.

When were such covers possibly signed? I would think most were signed after the flight, however, there is a good possibility that some were even crew autographed before the lunar voyage got underway.

posted 12-07-2010 09:21 AM               

The opinions here have been overwhelmingly against the way the covers were handled and merchandised, but it looks like they are here to stay and surely some will be very happy to acquire what most consider lowly anniversary canceled crew signed covers. But in their favor, they come with the special pedigree of being from Gene Cernan's collection, but with the stigma of being the output of an apparent David Frohman marketing scheme.

Gene Cernan had hundreds of these covers and probably grew tired after not selling a significant number for years (Kim Poor mentioned Novaspace selling only 50-75 thru the years, and as anniversary covers), so when Frohman showed up on Cernan's doorstep with cash and a cover transformation and sales proposal, Cernan was probably glad to have an opportunity to unload them.

posted 12-07-2010 10:43 AM               

Will the current discussion be retained as part of the historical record? Or will this discussion be long, long forgotten, with only the "Insurance Cover # XX" stamp on the front to suggest what the item really is?

Part of the interest for me in this hobby is the opportunity to, in some small way, act as a "link in the chain" to preserve the history of the historic events of the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo days. Perhaps some others feel the same way.

That having been said, is there anything that we in this community can do to preserve "the other side of the story" in this controversy? One side of the story will see the collector, 100 years from now, who is the proud owner of an Apollo 17 Insurance Cover complete with a COA from the Last Man on the Moon himself. A small amount of research will reveal to this collector what exactly it means to hold an "insurance cover" in one's hands.

posted 12-07-2010 02:48 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by capoetc:
Albeit a small point in the big scheme of things ... how will these purported A17 "insurance covers" be viewed 100 years from now, or longer?

---

posted 12-08-2010 09:59 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by mjanovec:
It's pretty hard to predict that far into the future. ...

---

posted 12-08-2010 04:48 PM               

After reading some of the comments in collectSPACE concerning the Apollo XVII crew anniversary covers, the record of these covers needs to be set straight in order to protect my own credibility. Thus I offer you the following history and the intent for which these covers were meant, which you may share with your readers.

The covers in question were given to me a couple weeks prior to our flight by a friend and accepted with no specific intent in mind. Ron Evans and I subsequently agreed to sign most if not all of the covers -- the exact number I don't recall -- prior to the flight. At that time, they had little or no value. The covers were left in the crew quarters along with our personal effects and indeed could have been disposed of in any way our families so desired were we not to return home.

Although these covers were never considered by either Ron or myself to be "insurance covers" -- and to this day I have never really felt comfortable with those words -- under a loose definition, they could have been assumed to be just that. There was never the intent nor were these covers postmarked at launch.

At the time, Jack Schmitt chose not to sign the covers either pre or post flight.

Once we returned, I decided to have these covers postmarked on specific milestone days of subsequent anniversaries of our flight to be held as personal memorabilia. I had no definitive plan whatsoever for what I was eventually going to do with these covers. I do not know what Ron did before his death with his covers, but I am certain that his wife, Jan, had some postmarked as well.

As best as I can recall, some months or years before the 10th Anniversary of our flight (which I believe to be the first postmark date), I asked Jack Schmitt to sign them as well to complete the crew signatures. In consideration for him doing so, I returned to him a number of those signed envelopes. What he did with those, I do not know.

Several years ago, I sent to Kim Poor a number of these covers (perhaps as many as 50-75) to make available to collectors as part of other memorabilia he was handling on my behalf.

Last year, two of my Apollo colleagues highly recommended that I meet with David Frohman as someone who could help me inventory and appraise some of my artifacts that I might some day dispose of. These would be artifacts that would not have enough personal meaning to leave to my children and grandchildren. So I did do just that, and David Frohman did, indeed, help me inventory my personal collection, among which were the subject covers.

However, to set the record straight, these covers weren't just "recently discovered." They have been sitting in my closet for years and offered to collectors by Kim Poor as Anniversary Covers. There never was and is not now an agreement between David Frohman and myself that he be either my exclusive representative or "personal archivist" -- an assumption on his part that is just not true.

His approach to the marketing of these "newly discovered insurance covers" (as he chooses to call them) has created an unfortunate situation where my credibility on this subject has now been challenged. Although nothing in his original Certificate of Authenticity is untrue, I take personal responsibility for the poor wording I was urged to ultimately accept in spite of my personal reservations at the time. Unfortunately, I, without much foresight, or knowledge on the subject, signed the "Apollo 17 Insurance Cover Certificate of Authenticity" without realizing the implications implied in the wording to those in the space collecting community. This has never happened to me before and it won't happen again.

My only concern now is that the truth be heard and my own personal credibility remains intact. I hope this statement clarifies the true history and intent of these covers.

Sincerely,
Gene Cernan

posted 12-08-2010 07:13 PM               

An unfortunate set of circumstances, although I do hope that Captain Cernan knows that (and I think/hope I can speak for most, if not all, folks here) HIS integrity was never, ever in question throughout this episode.

posted 12-08-2010 07:42 PM               

From reading Captain Cernan's statement, it seems painfully clear that Mr. Frohman did indeed word the COA in a manner to confuse the true history of these covers (even if there was nothing technically untrue in the statement itself). He apparently chose very selective wording in an attempt to make these covers a more marketable item. And he dressed up the covers with an unfortunate "Insurance Cover" stamp that further confuses the issue.

posted 12-08-2010 08:18 PM               

1. Just like the Apollo 11-Apollo 16 crews they signed covers BEFORE the launch.

2. These covers, with the Apollo 17 Mission emblem and made by the Manned Spacecraft Center Stamp Club (MSCSC) are EXACTLY the same as the MSCSC covers with Mission emblem signed by the Apollo 11 and Apollo 15 crews (and similar to the other insurance covers that also had a Mission emblem cachet).

3. They signed HUNDREDS of these covers, just like the other Apollo crews.

4. The intent of the Apollo 11-Apollo 16 crews were to use the hundreds of covers that they signed before the start of the mission as INSURANCE covers.

Sure, Captain Cernan may have wanted to get covers signed to give to friends, but why sign before the flight, and why sign HUNDREDS of covers? The pattern is just too similar to what 6 other crews did before him.

By the way, when I spoke with David Frohman he mentioned to me why he used the term 'personal archivist'. As Captain Cernan stated Mr. Frohman helped him catalogue and 'archive' his collection, so he considered himself Captain Cernan's 'archivist'. Perhaps that was an incorrect assumption on Mr. Frohman's part but he did indeed help Captain Cernan, which Captain Cernan has verified. And Mr. Frohman did say that if a collector wasn't satisfied with their purchase he would buy the covers back.

posted 12-08-2010 09:09 PM               

This unprecedented response by Gene Cernan makes a number of things clear to me. Firstly, these covers are NOT insurance covers. They were never intended to be, and are not now. Secondly, Frohman is misrepresenting his relationship to Cernan in an attempt to peddle these covers. Thirdly, he abused his role with Cernan and took advantage of his lack of knowledge on the subject for his own personal gain. Shame on him.

posted 12-08-2010 09:21 PM               

I can read Captain Cernan's explanation as well as the next guy, but frankly the facts, in my opinion, don't completely back up what he said. Why did he and Ron Evans sign HUNDREDS of covers before the flight?

posted 12-09-2010 12:51 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by randyc:
I can read Captain Cernan's explanation as well as the next guy, but frankly the facts, in my opinion, don't completely back up what he said.

---

Randy, you were demanding the other day that Cernan should speak up and make clear what his intent for these covers was. Now that Cernan has done exactly what you asked, you doubt his word?

posted 12-09-2010 02:25 AM               

That's a no brainer. However, Randy doesn't accept his explanation? Slightly arrogant in my opinion but each to their own!

Capt. Cernan was Mission Commander on Apollo 17, was concerned enough to clarify matter via Robert Pearlman and you are still arguing the point? Read between the lines and you'll note Capt. Cernan is being diplomatic about the whole saga which should NOT have arisen in the first instance so how come you are still flying that particular flag?

I'm with Rich Jurek on this one.

posted 12-09-2010 06:58 AM               

Although 'clever' marketing, hype, and spin can boost the values of some items most collectors would much rather items were researched carefully then sold based purely on their inherent merits.

Personally I feel that astronauts would be much better served by 'archivists' without any personal interest in the monies raised by the items in question.

When you think of the combined expertise in so many areas of space collecting that the people here on CS have it seems a shame that Cernan has to turn to a dealer like Frohman to assess his collection.

On CS there are real experts in every area of space collectible (signatures, hardware of all kinds, covers, patches etc...) so it's frustrating to imagine what amazing items there must be in the collections of the astronauts that will either be overlooked or overhyped by those who actually get to examine them, blinded by the $$ signs in their eyes.

posted 12-09-2010 10:43 AM               

I am hopeful he and the other Apollo astronauts no longer feel compelled to work with someone who would abuse them in this manner. Especially for his own ego and sales.

posted 12-09-2010 01:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott:
Thank you Captain Cernan. I also believe that no one ever doubted your integrity.

---

posted 12-09-2010 03:34 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leslie:
This thread is surely done and dusted so let's stop this picking of bones...

---