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Author Topic:   Apollo 16 backup crew mission patch?
LM-12
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From: Ontario, Canada
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posted 03-03-2014 08:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Was there an Apollo 16 backup crew patch, or is the backup crew wearing the prime crew patch in this photo?

KAPTEC
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posted 03-04-2014 07:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KAPTEC   Click Here to Email KAPTEC     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good question. Is there someone who knows the answer?

randy
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posted 03-04-2014 11:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for randy   Click Here to Email randy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It sure looks like the prime crew patch, from what I can see.

LM-12
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posted 03-04-2014 01:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Perhaps the backup crew patch had the original design, or a very similar one, with the names changed.

Besixdouze
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posted 03-04-2014 02:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Besixdouze   Click Here to Email Besixdouze     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Check out this link.

This gives a good account of the suit worn by Fred Haise which is, most likely, the one he is wearing in this shot.

LM-12
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posted 03-04-2014 07:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hard to believe that is the same suit, with the Duke name tag and no red stripes. What is the suit number?

Besixdouze
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posted 03-05-2014 02:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Besixdouze   Click Here to Email Besixdouze     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
On further investigation, the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal gives astronaut Haise two unique suit numbers - 324 for Primary and 305 for Training, neither of which had been used before. Likewise Mitchell with 325 and 321. Roosa has 401 and 085 which he recycled as back-up on Apollo 17 so the mystery deepens.

Maybe the crew needed to wear the prime crews suits for this photo opportunity which certainly looks staged. It's a shot I haven't seen before and a higher resolution version would obviously help. Anyone have one?

LM-12
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posted 03-05-2014 07:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Those look like beta cloth mission patches to me.

The crew might very well be wearing the prime suits as you suggest. I don't recall ever seeing Apollo mission patches on the training suits of a backup crew.

Had Apollo 19 not been cancelled, I guess it would have been Haise, Pogue and Carr in the photo.

spaced out
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posted 03-05-2014 09:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't seen any reason to suspect that embroidered patches were produced for any backup crews apart from Apollo 14. Or am I missing something?

LM-12
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posted 03-05-2014 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is an Apollo 16 training photo of Haise and Mitchell. The name tags on the RCUs are Young and (looks like) Duke.

Robert Pearlman
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posted 03-05-2014 10:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Besixdouze:
It's a shot I haven't seen before and a higher resolution version would obviously help. Anyone have one?
Here are the two photos from the sequence as included on Retro Space Images' Apollo 16 disc (click to view in full resolution):

LM-12
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posted 03-05-2014 02:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is there a date for the black and white photos?

Gonzo
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posted 03-05-2014 03:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gonzo   Click Here to Email Gonzo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And if you follow the link Mike (besixdouze) gave above, they are clearly beta cloth.

And no, I've never heard of any embroidered backup crew patches other than Apollo 14 either.

LM-12
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posted 05-11-2014 04:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A similar photo of the Apollo 15 crew shows that Al Worden was missing his beta cloth mission patch.

Philip
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posted 05-22-2014 04:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Philip   Click Here to Email Philip     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting topic with rarely seen photos!

LM-12
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posted 05-22-2014 09:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looks like the beta cloth mission patches weren't available yet when this Apollo 16 prime crew portrait was taken.

LM-12
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posted 05-23-2014 09:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The black and white Apollo 16 backup crew photos posted above might have been taken on April 11, 1972. Haise, Roosa and Mitchell were suited up at KSC for CMS/EVA training on that day.

Photo 72-H-427 was taken at KSC and is dated April 12, 1972. The prime and backup crews were both suited up for launch/TLI sim training on that day.

Young does not have a beta cloth mission patch on his spacesuit, but he does appear to have the design of a four-leaf clover on his suit at waist level.

LM-12
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posted 07-04-2014 01:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looks like the Apollo 17 crew had beta cloth mission patches on their training suits also. I would say those were training suits because of the "E. CERNAN" name tag and the dirt on his sleeve.

LM-12
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posted 07-31-2015 10:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Besixdouze:
Roosa has 401 and 085 which he recycled as back-up on Apollo 17 so the mystery deepens.

In the photo, the NASA logo location on Roosa seems to indicate an A7L suit. The connectors seem to indicate an A7LB suit. Perhaps he is wearing a modified version of his Apollo 14 flight suit (085).

J.L
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posted 07-31-2015 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for J.L   Click Here to Email J.L     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I pulled those images out of the KSC archives over 10 years ago. Been trying to get back in ever since. These shots are a good example of what is still locked away.

LM-12
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posted 07-31-2015 11:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Must be some real gems buried in those archives.

LM-12
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posted 07-31-2015 12:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The National Air and Space Museum has this photo of Roosa's "flown" Apollo 14 A7L suit.

mach3valkyrie
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posted 07-31-2015 12:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mach3valkyrie   Click Here to Email mach3valkyrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What happened to the Apollo 14 beta cloth patch and NASA beta cloth patch?

Robert Pearlman
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posted 07-31-2015 12:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All of the Apollo astronauts were presented the patches from their suits as a memento.

Only Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins declined the offer, wanting to keep the suits from the first moon landing mission intact.

LM-12
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posted 07-31-2015 12:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The NASM photo description does not mention that the suit was modified after the Apollo 14 mission.

Roosa's flown Apollo 14 suit is 085. 085 was reused as his Apollo 16 and 17 backup crew training suit. The NASA patch location hints that he is wearing the 085 training suit (and not the 401 primary suit) in the black and white photos. And it seems more likely to me that they would put the Apollo 16 patches on the training suits rather than the primary suits. So I would say that the flown suit in the NASM photo is the same suit that Roosa is wearing in the black and white photos.

LM-12
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posted 08-02-2015 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by J.L:
I pulled those images out of the KSC archives ... These shots are a good example of what is still locked away.

The 1968 photo gallery has only 9 photos. The 1970 gallery has just 5 photos.

For comparison, the 2004 gallery alone has over 2700 photos.

LM-12
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posted 01-14-2019 08:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Retro Space Images posted this photo on Facebook yesterday.
Apollo 16 countdown test. Take a close look at the emblem on the door.

LM-12
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posted 01-15-2019 04:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When was that photo taken?

Photo KSC-72PC-0253 shows the Apollo 16 prime crew walkout for the CDDT. The prime crew names are seen on the emblem inside the door.

I don't think the backup crew suited up for a countdown demonstration test.

328KF
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posted 01-15-2019 07:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 328KF   Click Here to Email 328KF     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It looks to me like this was not a professionally made emblem. The lettering is smaller than it should be and it appears that Haise's name doesn't exactly match the curve of the blue ring.

Maybe the backup crew (or somebody on their behalf) did this as a "gotcha"?

It would make a nice modern replica project though!

LM-12
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posted 01-16-2019 11:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If the same was done for all the Apollo emblems, then "Haise" would be on three of them: Apollo 8, Apollo 11 and Apollo 16.

LM-12
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posted 08-05-2019 03:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Gemini 10 backup crew wore the Gemini 10 patch on their spacesuits. Photo 66-H-972 has this caption:
The backup crew for the [NASA] Gemini 10 mission (L-R) Clifton C. Williams, Jr., pilot, and Alan L. Bean, command pilot, are at the White Room level of Complex 19 for a checkout in the Gemini 10 spacecraft. NASA plans a three-day Earth orbital mission for Gemini 10 to rendezvous and dock with the Agena 10 target vehicle.

mach3valkyrie
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posted 08-09-2019 11:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mach3valkyrie   Click Here to Email mach3valkyrie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With no names on the Gemini X patch, it was a good fit for the backup crew as well.

rasorenson
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posted 08-11-2019 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasorenson   Click Here to Email rasorenson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This image of the transfer van door is the only time I've seen back up crew names replace the prime crew on a mission emblem (beyond the Apollo 14 variation).

The image of the Apollo 8 prime and backup crews shows the backup crew wearing the Apollo 8 emblem containing the prime crew names.

LM-12
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posted 08-11-2019 06:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
White Room photos show the Gemini 11 backup crew Armstrong and Anders wearing (on their smocks) larger Gemini 11 patches with their names.

spaced out
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posted 08-12-2019 05:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaced out   Click Here to Email spaced out     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting image. To my eye the design looks more hand-drawn than embroidered.

LM-12
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posted 08-12-2019 06:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Spacefacts.de has a Gemini 11 backup crew patch.

Jacques van Oene
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posted 08-12-2019 08:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jacques van Oene     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That Gemini 11 back up patch was made by the late Randy Hunt. I have such a patch in my collection as well.

LM-12
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posted 08-17-2019 10:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LM-12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Photo S65-61837 shows Gemini 7 backup crew Ed White and Michael Collins suited up in the White Room. White's right arm is hidden in the photo, but White and Collins might have been wearing the Gemini 7 patch on their spacesuits.
The Gemini-7 backup crew seen in the White Room atop Pad 19 during Gemini-7 simulation flight activity. McDonnell Aircraft Corporation technicians assist in the exercise. Astronaut Edward H. White II (in foreground) is the Gemini-7 backup crew command pilot; and astronaut Michael Collins (right background) is the backup crew pilot.

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