posted 05-13-2003 09:01 PM               

Thank goodness I just got broadband and a new PC!

------------------
Warm Regards

Douglas Henry

posted 05-14-2003 09:00 AM               

Otherwise cool stuff at first glance though it looks in part like the Dave Scott garage sale !

posted 05-14-2003 12:13 PM               

Charles Conrad Autograph
"An island of refuse in an Ocean of Storms".

Kinda sounds like a big pile of rubbish !

Adam

(Added later, I mean the inscription not the authenticity of the piece by the way !)

posted 05-14-2003 02:07 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by spaceflori:
Hmm, Lot 551 - I definetely like to the see the Worden COA - wonder if he spotted the Irwin and Scott autopens on this... )

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posted 05-14-2003 02:39 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by mensclub10@aol.com:
Robert, apparently our members are able to view the entire catalog. Example lot 448 (Adam) etc. Am I missing something?

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This page:
http://www.collectspace.com/webcasts/aurora_spring2003.html

posted 05-16-2003 04:13 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by spaceflori:
Hmm, Lot 551 - I definetely like to the see the Worden COA - wonder if he spotted the Irwin and Scott autopens on this... )

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posted 05-16-2003 04:19 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rodina:

Do they send catalogs to previous bidders/folks who requested the catalog in previous auctions?

I got the catalog for the first auction, then asked to get it for the second, and ended up with three catalogs for the second auction. Any sense taht I will get a catalog automatically?

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You SHOULD get the catalog automatically BUT, to be on the safe side, I suggest you email me (imo@auroragalleriesonline.com) or call me (toll free 866-925-7672) to double check that the address we have for you is still current (since I done have your name from this message, I cannot check it our directly).
Regards...Michael Orenstein
PS. Sorry about the multiple copies of the last catalog. I hope that you at least passed them on to friends.

posted 05-16-2003 08:48 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by connoisseur:
You SHOULD get the catalog automatically BUT, to be on the safe side, I suggest you email me (imo@auroragalleriesonline.com) or call me (toll free 866-925-7672) to double check that the address we have for you is still current (since I done have your name from this message, I cannot check it our directly).

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I got mine today! Something to do this weekend.

posted 05-17-2003 01:40 PM               

Lot #154 ....... Young forgery

#155 ........... Strange that White wasn't
an Air Force captain at the
time this pic was snapped.

#159 ........... GT-4 Crew are Autopens

#207 ........... Stafford Autopen

#310 ........... Print/AP of the Ap-8 crew

#312/313/314 ... Autopens of Lovell

#347 ........... Cernan is good along with
his notation, but the others
are printed autopens

#376 ........... Classic Armstrong Autopen

#375 ........... All crew forgeries

#380 ........... A bad Armstrong forgery

#551 ........... Irwin and Scott Autopens

#630 ........... The certificate is signed by
Dr. Kurt Debus, the first
director of KSC-NASA.

#725 ........... Ths is NOT an original SL-3
Astro-Wives patch as noted.
There are a number of ways
you can tell it isn't.

Haven't had enough time to examine the rest of the catalog after page 179. What do other collectors think?

Ken H.

posted 05-18-2003 02:15 AM            

And as for getting duplicates, no problem, but i got them last time so close to the auction I couldn't do anything with 'em.

posted 05-19-2003 02:03 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken Havekotte:
Some observation Notes:
(My opinions only)

Lot #154 ....... Young forgery

#155 ........... Strange that White wasn't
an Air Force captain at the
time this pic was snapped.

#159 ........... GT-4 Crew are Autopens

#207 ........... Stafford Autopen

#310 ........... Print/AP of the Ap-8 crew

#312/313/314 ... Autopens of Lovell

#347 ........... Cernan is good along with
his notation, but the others
are printed autopens

#376 ........... Classic Armstrong Autopen

#375 ........... All crew forgeries

#380 ........... A bad Armstrong forgery

#551 ........... Irwin and Scott Autopens

#630 ........... The certificate is signed by
Dr. Kurt Debus, the first
director of KSC-NASA.

#725 ........... Ths is NOT an original SL-3
Astro-Wives patch as noted.
There are a number of ways
you can tell it isn't.

Haven't had enough time to examine the rest of the catalog after page 179. What do other collectors think?

Ken H.

---

Ken - Thanks for letting us know about the items you feel are questionable. I agree with you on MOST, but not all. In particular, I question your opinion on lot 375 (the consignor personally received this item) and 725 (there is not belly button on the Wives patch. I thought that was the key distinguishing factor). The other lots will be withdrawn when/if I receive confirmation from competent autograph experts.
Regards...Michael

posted 05-19-2003 02:34 PM               

Thanks! Dave

posted 05-19-2003 03:31 PM               

In your response to Ken Havekotte's opinions on a number of lots in your auction, you stated that "The other lots will be withdrawn when/if I receive confirmation from competent autograph experts." That implies to me that you don't regard Ken as a competent autograph expert - but, of course, you didn't mean that? Maybe you meant "other competent autograph experts."

But what other "competent autograph experts" do you need to get confirmation from other than Ken? If I were running a space auction, I'd be very appreciative of any (free) assistance with my auction from perhaps the most knowledgeable and respected space autograph authority in the space hobby and gladly accept his opinions to improve my auction.

And regardless of what the consigner stated about the origin of lot #375 (Apollo 11 crew signed banner), Ken's opinion of it being a forgery is accurate & would be the opinion of any knowledgeable collector.

Regards,

posted 05-19-2003 11:34 PM               

I also have a question: Why don't you consult your "competent autograph experts" BEFORE the catalog comes out? They might help keep some of the autopens out as well.

posted 05-20-2003 02:46 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob M:
Michael,

In your response to Ken Havekotte's opinions on a number of lots in your auction, you stated that "The other lots will be withdrawn when/if I receive confirmation from competent autograph experts." That implies to me that you don't regard Ken as a competent autograph expert - but, of course, you didn't mean that? Maybe you meant "other competent autograph experts."

But what other "competent autograph experts" do you need to get confirmation from other than Ken? If I were running a space auction, I'd be very appreciative of any (free) assistance with my auction from perhaps the most knowledgeable and respected space autograph authority in the space hobby and gladly accept his opinions to improve my auction.

And regardless of what the consigner stated about the origin of lot #375 (Apollo 11 crew signed banner), Ken's opinion of it being a forgery is accurate & would be the opinion of any knowledgeable collector.

Regards,

Bob McLeod

---

Gentlemen - Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote or meant as regards Ken's opinions. Neither Victoria nor I have any problem with Ken's opinions or expertise. What we do have a problem with is making a change in the catalog to withdraw a consignor's item (and potentially costing him/her money) based on any one individual's opinion. What we seek are multiple, independant opinions by people who we know have been collecting for enough time to be both impartial and knowledgeable. We consider that to be fair to all.
Re the probable reply that why don't we just send out jpegs shows that the person(s) making this reply just has no idea of the time factors and work that goes into producing a catalog. I can assure you that both Victoria and I screen, to the best of our ability and time, all items prior to our describing them. We also do solicit other expert opinions as we feel necessary. Obviously some do slip by; but you have no idea as to the number that don't.
I trust that this answers your questions. We shall discuss withdrawing lot 375 with the consignor (we do not arbitrarily withdraw anything without discussing it with the consignor in advance). The owner will be heartbroken as it was given to him personally by the crew in appreciation of his work for the astros and Rotary.So much for his work being acknowledged.

We do appreciate your comments.
Best regards, Michael and Victoria

PS. We have had some questions raised about other items in the sale. All withdrawn items, or corrigenda for descriptions will be noted on our web site and should be checked prior to the sale.

posted 05-21-2003 02:18 PM               

However I'm agreeing with Ken and Bob on the (Ken's) list, so we already have three opinions. )

posted 05-21-2003 03:07 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by spaceflori:
Have to agree with Michael and Victoria - withdrawing an item because of a single opinion wouldn't be fair towards the consignor....

However I'm agreeing with Ken and Bob on the (Ken's) list, so we already have three opinions. )

Florian

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Gentlemen - I can't argue with that.
Michael

posted 05-21-2003 03:36 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by spaceflori:
Have to agree with Michael and Victoria - withdrawing an item because of a single opinion wouldn't be fair towards the consignor....

However I'm agreeing with Ken and Bob on the (Ken's) list, so we already have three opinions. )

Gentlemen - Thank you for the concurring opinions. We have withdrawn lots 154-55, 159, 207, 310, 375, 380 and 551. We also thank you for concurring with our existing opinions as regards the autopens on lots 312-14 (Lovell Autopens), and 347 (where we considered all autographs to be autopens). We have corrected lot 376 on all the data bases except the printed catalog as regards the Armstrong autopen. Since this is a minor value point to the lot, we will not withdraw this lot.
Good luck to all in the sale.
Michael and Victoria

Florian

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posted 05-22-2003 02:46 PM               

#395 ...... An Aldrin Autopen, believe it or
not as I can prove it, as one of his later AP
patterns.

#684 ...... Some minor concerns here with Slayton and Brand, but mostly Slayton as a possible forgery (thanks to Ross Pensa for
bringing this to my attention). Undecided.

posted 05-22-2003 03:27 PM               

Without knowing who the consignor is (which I believe in this situation would have helped immensely towards verifying authenticity) I am curious as to how we discern forgeries from sloppy signatures. I ask because this isn't a photograph, nor is your typical item to get signed. Where the signing took place -- was it hanging on the wall at the time? -- could have added to the style of the signatures, as well as if it was held out in a crowd during a tour stop and was signed "in the air".

Looking at the Aldrin signature alone -- I have personally seen authentic signatures of his that are sloppier than this (I only wish I could find one now to share).

Look at Lot 375 again. What if the consignor is Bob Murkshe (who else would have this banner?) Are we comfortable in so quickly declaring this a forgery, hense calling into question the word of the former Mayor of Cocoa Beach?

In a situation like this, where the signatures are questionable, it would benefit the consignor greatly if he/she would make his/herself known.

[After posting this, I did a little research. Murkshe is apparently dead and there is a park named in his honor -- so it is possible that this item was sold at an estate sale. Again, its all part (as a certain collector would say) of the "big picture".]

posted 05-22-2003 05:04 PM               

Those of us who have collected seriously for many years & have made it a habit to study and analyze astronaut autographs may be the closest our hobby has to astronaut autograph experts and the best defense again forgery. I feel that it's important for collectors, dealers & auctions to listen to those such as Ken, and pay heed, as our wonderful hobby is being greatly tarnished by better and better forgeries. From what I've seen, too many suspicious, questionable & fake autographs are being offered & sold and it's mainly concerned & knowledgeable people like Ken that can reduce the amount of forgeries being distributed.

BTW, We all appreciate what a great job Michael & Victoria do with the Aurora auctions.

posted 05-22-2003 06:02 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken Havekotte:
My thanks to Bob, Leon, Jimmy and Florian for their kind comments and support about my impressions about several Aurora lots in their recent auction. But it was never my intention to publically question or embarrass
Victoria or Michael in anyway regarding the lots in mention. I was simply asked by a few collectors if I wouldn't mind using such a forum to voice my personal opinions on those lots that I felt were in question...
period! Inparticular, while on the subject, let me add a couple others to the list that
were missed before:

#395 ...... An Aldrin Autopen, believe it or
not as I can prove it, as one of his later AP
patterns.

#684 ...... Some minor concerns here with Slayton and Brand, but mostly Slayton as a possible forgery (thanks to Ross Pensa for
bringing this to my attention). Undecided.

Some additional comments I would like to make, if I may, concerning Lots Nos. 725 and 726. The original Skylab Astro-Wives Patch is quite different from the one illustrated in the caralog. Michael is correct in pointing out there is a missing belly button, however, the type face is not the same from the original version along with a few other factors, including no hidden initials and the "SKYLAB II" letters not being connected to the intermost circle line.
The decal as illustrated and referred to in Lot #726 is another story altogether. While there were only 320 of the wives patches produced by CKM in 1973, there were 1600 of the stickers printed. None of the cloth patches were flown aboard SL-3 as they were produced after the mission in time for Christmas. But--in the case of the decals--
three (3) of them were put inside the CM spacecraft by Bob Crippen and transfered to the Skylab OWS by the SL-3 crewmembers once in orbit after docking. After the 59-day flight the stickers were brought back to Earth and retained by the families. The majority of the stickers were numbered in the upper left corner and signed at the bottom by both their creator/designer and artist. The first 1400 went to the astronauts' wives, their families, friends of all the parties involved, and others to space officials and personnel. Each wife received 100 nun-numbered decals as well as 200 numbered issues.

---

Ken - Lots 395 and 684 are of no importance and I have no problem pulling them from the sale on your say-so. If I understand you correctly re lts 725-726, Lot 725 is not original but 726 is (but is not that valuable). Let me know so I can pull lot 725 if necessary.
Thanks...Michael
PS.Despite some opinions to the contrary, we DO value the input collectors and dealers provide regarding the sale. There is no way we can catch everything, despite our best efforts. As I've said repeatedly, when verified, I have no problem in pulling a lot. I prefer them to be the cheap ones, BUT...

posted 05-23-2003 12:11 AM               

As always - you have proven that YOU are a class act. I know how you value Kenny's opinions and in how high esteem you hold them. I do not believe there is one person on these boards or anywhere in the space collectibles community - who can hold a candle to him as you and I have discussed on more than 1 occasion. While there are very knowledgable folks out there - and some whom I also trust implicitly - I believe we are all in agreement Ken is "da man". And this is NO insult to the others.

Ken - do not sell yourself short my dear friend. Don't forget we have seen a certified forensic questions documents examiner issue fraudulent COAs in the past who HAD the degrees. So simply having the education pedigree does not bring integrity which YOU do. Also, as you know, Ive had occasion to work with the best forensic document examiners in my career. Not one of them will go out on a limb and call one real or fake, based on their science. But you have seen probably more signatures than any one else, and yours is based on actual experience which would be what the scientists would use if they were as learned as you.

This is refreshing, to see the back and forth, respect and way this is handled.

All the best,