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Author
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Topic: Apollo 12: Surveyor from above and on the moon
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spaceuk
Member Posts: 2113
From: Staffs, UK
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 03-27-2004 11:13 AM
  
At about 37,000 feet above the lunar surface, Surveyor 3's main retro burnout occurred followed by ejection of the somewhat bell shaped retro and nozzle.Has anyone looked for images of the possible impact point of this retro unit - possibly even in the cine film taken by Apollo 12 on its descent (or even ascent)? |
Tom
Member Posts: 1610
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-27-2004 05:36 PM
Which brings up another question... has anyone ever noticed in the Apollo 12 landing video taken aboard Intrepid, if Surveyor 3 was visible? If I remember correctly, Conrad and Bean landed only 600 feet downrange from the spacecraft. |
RichieB16
Member Posts: 582
From: Oregon
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 03-27-2004 07:02 PM
The question would be if they could see it from the window. They may have landed so they couldn't see it. |
Steve Smith
Member Posts: 503
From: Wichita, Kansas, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 03-27-2004 09:47 PM
My following comments are based mainly on pages 47 to 54 of Volume 2 of "A Man on the Moon" by Andrew Chaikin.While Bean and Conrad did not see Surveyor 3 while landing (busy, view angle, very dusty), Conrad was very excited on approach at 7,000' to be seeing the "Snowman Craters" which were next to the Surveyor 3. (Called "Snowman" because a large crater in front of a small crater by Surveyor looked like the belly and head of a snowman as they approached it. However as Conrad exited the Intrepid and got a clear view around the LEM after a few steps, he reported with a cackle "Does that look neat. It can't be any further than 600' from here. How about that?" (referring to the Surveyor 3). Captain Gordon relayed a very interesting story to me (which I later found in different prose style than the Captain's folksy story telling found on page 64 of the noted book) that on the next orbit after touchdown, he tried to spot the "Intrepid". Since he knew the exact co-ordinates, he had the computer direct the sextant to it. He was amazed to see it, and was reporting such when he spotted another point of light nearby saying "I see Surveyor, I see Surveyor". He tells the story that he jumped up and down (forget zero G). Tom, congratulations on your excellent memory on the 600'. Sorry this doesn't shed any light on the Surveyor retro unit. I just think this was one heck of an accomplishment, putting the Intrepid right on target from 240,000 miles away. |
spaceuk
Member Posts: 2113
From: Staffs, UK
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 04-06-2004 01:09 PM
I've looked through the Apollo 12 movie camera descent footage - especially from about 2000 feet altitude.However, I cannot see artificial objects that may have come from Surveyor 3 on its descent. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3160
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 04-06-2004 08:37 PM
Bear in mind that when "Intrepid" landed, the sun angle was very low (I think about 5 degrees, lower than any other landing). Surveyor 3 was probably completely hidden in shadow inside Surveyor Crater. Even in the photographs taken on EVA 1, only the top of Surveyor has emerged into sunlight. I doubt if Surveyor could have been seen during the landing even if the crew had been able to look for it. It also occurs to me that the Surveyor retro-pack might have been within the field of view of the movie camera, but simply hidden in shadow. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1610
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-18-2006 05:34 PM
In this photo of the Surveyor 3 spacecraft and Apollo 12 lunar module Intrepid on the surface, it sure looks like the LM may have flown directly over the Surveyor before touchdown.Are there any transcripts indicating that Conrad or Bean got a visual on the spacecraft before landing? Editor's note: Threads merged. |
Dwight
Member Posts: 577
From: Germany
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted 05-18-2006 05:39 PM
They definitely mention the Snowman crater formation on approach. There is no mention of Surveyor until Pete steps on to the lunar surface, and shrieks for joy upon realising how close to Surveyor he landed.The Apollo Lunar Surface Journal should have a transcript of the landing. I am going from memory. |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 05-18-2006 09:25 PM
The newly-revised targeting procedures used on Apollo 12 (using analysis of the Doppler shifts of the LM's radio transmissions as it came around the limb of the Moon) were so precise that when Intrepid pitched over, they saw that the landing indicator had them targeted for landing in Surveyor Crater. Conrad clicked his controller a few times to the right to land on the rim. I have seen reports (speculation?) that the tan color that Bean and Conrad noticed on the normally-white Surveyor was in fact a fine layer of dust that had been kicked up by the LM as it passed relatively close by on its final approach. Intrepid kicked up a lot more dust, at a higher altitude, than Eagle — so much so that Conrad described the landing as an IFR approach. He couldn't see where he was landing after he got below 100 feet. As Conrad was coming onto the porch: Conrad: Hey, I'll tell you what we're parked next to.Bean: What? Conrad: We're about 25 feet in front of the Surveyor Crater. (Guffaws) Bean: That's good. That's where we wanted to be. Conrad: I bet you when I get down to the bottom of the ladder, I can see the Surveyor. Just after stepping off the footpad and walking a few feet, he said: Conrad: (Gleeful) Boy, you'll never believe it. Guess what I see sitting on the side of the crater!Bean: The old Surveyor, right? Conrad: The old Surveyor. Yes, sir. (Laughing) Does that look neat! It can't be any further than 600 feet from here. How about that? |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3160
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 05-19-2006 03:21 PM
It's highly unlikely Conrad and Bean could have seen Surveyor during the descent even if they had had the time to look. Even at the start of EVA 1 the sun had barely risen high enough to illuminate the top of Surveyor's solar panel mast. Most of the spacecraft was in deep shadow. During the landing, I suspect that the sun wasn't high enough in the sky even to catch the top of the spacecraft. |
Jim
Member Posts: 73
From: San Antonio TX
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-22-2006 01:33 AM
I just read the Apollo 12 transcript beginning when they were at 3500 feet and continuing until they landed and there was no mention of sighting the Surveyor by Pete Conrad or Al Bean. |
MCroft04
Member Posts: 1647
From: Smithfield, Me, USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 06-10-2006 08:33 PM
In the book "Space Exploration and Disasters" (which is nothing but a collection of writings from other books), it is stated that Dick Gordon, using a 28 power telescope "spotted a speck of light with a shadow, then another speck nearby, about 3 hours after (the LM) landed," which was obviously Intrepid and the Surveyor. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 07-10-2006 05:27 PM
I have been trying for years to find out if Gordon took any film or photos of Intrepid on the surface with the optics aboard Yankee Clipper.Anyway in one Apollo book the author writes: As Intrepid descended through 7000 feet toward the lunar surface, it pitched to an upright position and Pete Conrad and Al Bean got their first look at the approach to the landing site. In front of them, right where it was supposed to be, was Snowman. "Hey, there it is!" announced Conrad. "Sonofagun, right down the middle of the road!" They had a chance, at least, of getting close to the Suveyor. As the LEM continued past Snowman, Conrad began to realise just how close they were going to come: "Hey, it [Intrepid] started right for the middle of the crater," he cried. "Look out there! I just can't believe it! Amazing! Fantastic!" Dave Reed had still been a little off. Intrepid wouldn't have actually landed on top of Surveyor if Conrad had let it alone — it would have been perhaps as much as 150 feet away. That was close enough to shower the Surveyor with dust — too close. Conrad took manual control, steering the LEM across the crater to a safe distance — on the far rim after all. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-06-2015 12:37 AM
EVA-2 photo AS12-48-7110 taken by LMP Alan Bean shows impressions made in the lunar soil by footpad number 2 when Surveyor 3 landed back in 1967.This graphic shows how the Surveyor spacecraft bounced several times down the crater slope before coming to a stop. Alan Bean noticed the spot higher up on the slope where the Surveyor 3 spacecraft first contacted the surface: LMP-EVA: See up the hill here. Oh, look! There's where it hit. See? Editor's note: Threads merged. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 03-06-2015 07:23 AM
The second set of landing pad imprints were imaged by Surveyor itself, but the first set were out of range. From Bean's description, he was looking at the first set, which should have been near the rim of Surveyor crater. It is unfortunate that he did not document them photographically so their exact location,depth of pad penetration, and vernier exhaust erosion could be studied.Tried as I might, I have not been able to find them in LRO imagery. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-06-2015 08:38 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Headshot:
The second set of landing pad imprints were imaged by Surveyor itself
Those imprints can be seen in photo 67-H-854 looking east. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-06-2015 07:25 PM
From NASA SP-184 Surveyor Program Results on page 9: The vernier engines on Surveyor III did not shut down before initial touchdown, but continued to burn, lifting the spacecraft from the surface. It landed again about 20 meters from the initial position, with engines still on, and lifted off a second time. The engines were then turned off, and the spacecraft touched down again 11 meters from the position of the second touchdown. The vertical velocity component for the three touchdowns was 1 to 2 m/sec; the horizontal component, 0.3 to 0.9 m/sec. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 03-07-2015 07:58 AM
Did NASA/JPL ever determine why the engines did not shut down prior to landing?I remember reading a contemporary article in one of the local Chicago newspapers speculating that Surveyor 3 landed in a area coated with naturally occurring, radar-absorbing material. This was their way of explaining Surveyor landing problem. The article went on to suggest we go back to that same area (with either robotic or manned spacecraft) to obtain samples so the military could exploit these radar-absorbing properties! The 1960s were indeed a different time. |
Space Cadet Carl
Member Posts: 225
From: Lake Orion, Michigan
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 03-07-2015 08:15 AM
I remember the story of Pete Conrad being asked exactly where he wanted to land by the LM chief targeting and guidance officer. Pete said: "I want you to target me right smack dab in the middle of Surveyor Crater." The guidance officer said: "Okay Pete, you got it." When Conrad and Bean pitched over... they were headed right straight for the middle of Surveyor Crater, causing Pete to take manual control off to the northwest edge of the crater for landing. To this day its still an incredible accomplishment. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-07-2015 10:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
it sure looks like the LM may have flown directly over the Surveyor before touchdown
The ALSJ has this diagram of the ground track of the LM near Surveyor Crater. |
One Big Monkey
Member Posts: 171
From: West Yorkshire, UK
Registered: Jul 2012
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posted 03-07-2015 02:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Headshot:
Did NASA/JPL ever determine why the engines did not shut down prior to landing?
According to the final mission report (page 168) there were a number of problems with altimeter and radar, though it doesn't say whether that was as a result of the surface or just instrument failure. One final key event was a 14 foot mark alert, which wasn't received until after the final bounce! |
Tom
Member Posts: 1610
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-07-2015 08:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by LM-12:
The ALSJ has this diagram of the ground track of the LM near Surveyor Crater.
Thanks. I guess it was that bank to the left Conrad made before touchdown that made it seem more in line with Surveyor. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-08-2015 07:50 AM
Surveyor 2 and Surveyor 4 were both unsuccessful. Apollo 11 landed about 25 km from Surveyor 5. That is less than the total traverse distance travelled on Apollo 16. Was Surveyor 5 ever considered as a target for Apollo 11? |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 03-08-2015 09:14 AM
According to contemporary press reports the main concern was not the landing but whether there had been a battery failure. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 03-08-2015 11:34 AM
Surveyor V was never considered as a target for any Apollo mission because scientists, at the time, were uncertain of its location. Surveyor V landed in a small crater with steep walls that precluded examination of the surrounding area. As a result, scientists were unable to identify and match local features with those recorded on Lunar Orbiter photography.It was not until the LRO mission that Surveyor V's location was firmly established and the craft itself imaged. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-08-2015 01:28 PM
The Astronomy Picture of the Day website has this stereo image of Pete Conrad at the Surveyor 3 spacecraft. |
schnappsicle
Member Posts: 396
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012
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posted 03-10-2015 07:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Space Cadet Carl:
I remember the story of Pete Conrad being asked exactly where he wanted to land by the LM chief targeting and guidance officer. Pete said: "I want you to target me right smack dab in the middle of Surveyor Crater." The guidance officer said: "Okay Pete, you got it."
As I recall, that conversation occurred about a week before the launch of Apollo 12. The guidance officer had changed the landing point several times during the previous month or so. Since they couldn't decide the best location for landing, the decision was made to send them to the center of Surveyor Crater and allow Conrad to pick the most suitable landing spot from there. As I recall, he made the most corrections of any CMP. For some reason, the number 19 comes to mind, but I could be wrong. Either way it worked out. Yes, it would be very interesting to find the Surveyor shroud. I'm sure we'll see it in future photographs. I'm not sure how big it was, but with today's LRO resolution, it wouldn't be more than a pixel or 2 wide. That doesn't seem like it would have enough information on it to actually see it, but I could be wrong. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 03-10-2015 05:50 PM
I believe that Phillip Stooke (The International Atlas of Lunar Exploration) has identified an object that might be Surveyor 3's spent retrorocket. But it is at the very limit of LRO image resolution and would probably require "boots on the ground" to verify. |
Chariot412
Member Posts: 156
From: Lockport, NY, 14094
Registered: Jun 2011
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posted 03-10-2015 07:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Headshot:
...would probably require "boots on the ground" to verify.
I volunteer.
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perineau
Member Posts: 244
From: FRANCE
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 03-11-2015 07:46 AM
Count me in too! |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-13-2015 10:26 AM
Surveyor 6 also hopped on the moon, but that was planned. Near the end of the nominal two week mission NASA engineers commanded the Surveyor 6 engine to fire for a few seconds. The spacecraft rose about 4 m above the surface and landed about 2.5 m from its original landing spot. This was the first successful liftoff from the lunar surface. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 891
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 03-13-2015 04:00 PM
MSC Director Bob Gilruth instructed JPL managers to have a Surveyor perform a post landing hop to determine the amount of lunar soil erosion a LM might cause.Such a hop was planned for Surveyor II, which did not land intact. The event was then set for Surveyor III, but cancelled after its dicey landing; Surveyor IV lost communications with JPL prior to landing; Surveyor V had a helium leak which cancelled its hop, although the vernier engines were fired. The hop was finally performed by Surveyor VI. Actually a second hop of about 1000 feet was considered and actually planned, but ultimately cancelled.
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LM-12
Member Posts: 3324
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-13-2015 05:01 PM
Thanks for those additional details. Very interesting. I also learned that the first image of Earth from the lunar surface was taken by Surveyor 3. |
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