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Author
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Topic: Gemini to the moon: Was it possible?
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carmelo
Member Posts: 1080
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 04-19-2005 12:41 PM
   
From Encyclopedia Astronautica: By Gemini to the Moon!
| Date | Flight | Description | | Titan 2 Launches | | | Mar 1964 | Gemini 1 | Unmanned orbital | | May 1964 | Gemini 2 | Manned orbital | | Jun 1964 | Gemini 3 | 7-day manned orbital | | Aug 1964 | Gemini 4 | 14-day manned orbital | | Sep 1964 | Gemini 5 | Agena docking | | Nov 1964 | Gemini 6 | Agena docking | | Dec 1964 | Gemini 7 | Agena docking | | Feb 1965 | Gemini 8 | Centaur docking, boost to high Earth orbit | | Mar 1965 | Gemini 9 | Centaur docking, boost to high Earth orbit | | May 1965 | Gemini 10 | LM docking | | Jun 1965 | Gemini 11 | LM docking | | Jul 1965 | Gemini 12 | LM docking | | Sep 1965 | Gemini 13 | Centaur docking, boost to Lunar flyby | | Oct 1965 | Gemini 14 | Centaur docking, boost to Lunar flyby | | | | Saturn C-3 Launches | | | | | Nov 1965 | Gemini 15 | Manned Lunar orbital | | Jan 1966 | Gemini 16 | Manned Lunar landing |
The lunar module would have been launched separately by Titan II for the three Earth orbital docking missions. This moon landing project was projected to cost $584 million 'plus the cost of two Saturn C-3's'. |
dtemple
Member Posts: 753
From: Longview, Texas, USA
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 04-19-2005 06:42 PM
Though the "what ifs" are always interesting to ponder, I believe NASA was wise to move on to Apollo for the lunar flights. Apollo was far more sophisticated than the Gemini spacecraft. Therefore, the CSM/LM was more capable and more safe than a Gemini derivative. Yes, the Gemini approach probably would have worked but I suspect if tried six or seven times there probably would have been a fatal accident. If Apollo had been extended for enough flights, the same thing would probably have happened, too. That's just my opinion or gut feeling about the lunar Gemini proposal. |
ApolloAlex
Member Posts: 390
From: Yeovil, England
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 04-20-2005 05:58 AM
Has anybody a copy of Gemini 12 by Apogee Books, edited by Robert Godwin? It has at the back a rare Gemini lunar mission plan which goes into great detail and is in fact titled "Rendezvous concept for circumlunar flyby in 1967."I find that all of these NASA mission reports a great reference to rely on. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1080
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 04-20-2005 09:35 AM
Gemini-lunar was a good idea, but only if the first fly around the moon had been not later 1965, and the first landing not later 1966. In 1967 Gemini-lunar was not more competitive with Apollo.I think that NASA lost too much time to develop Paraglider reentry system. Gemini first manned flight have had been in late 1963-early 1964. I propose a date: Friday, November 22 ,1963. And with President Kennedy invited to see the launch. Cape Canaveral instead that Dallas. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 08-19-2005 05:51 PM
I seem to recall having read that if the Command Module wasn't ready from NAA in time, there was some consideration of sending a Gemini capsule and crew to the moon (for an Apollo 8 style mission).Has anyone read this before... or heard of this plan? Editor's note: Threads merged. |
MCroft04
Member Posts: 1770
From: Smithfield, Me, USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 08-19-2005 05:54 PM
Yes it was a consideration. What amazes me is that the astronuats supported it. Imagine, living in the equivalent of a Volkswagon for 10 days. These guys were amzing. |
RichieB16
Member Posts: 629
From: Oregon
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 08-19-2005 07:16 PM
It wouldn't have been unbelievable for the Gemini capsule to be used for that duration. Apollo 8 was only 6 days in duration-had a Gemini capsule type mission been flown they may have only done a lunar flyby instead of orbital (maybe) and that would have cut a day off. Both Gemini-V and Gemini-VII were longer. So, it wouldn't have been THAT bad. |
Rodina
Member Posts: 836
From: Lafayette, CA
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 08-19-2005 07:37 PM
I figure with a Lunar Gemini, they'd be just trying to get to the Moon ahead of the Soviets, so they'd do as little as possible to make an already complex mission more complicated -- so I assume they'd have done a free-return. Still, it would have been pretty darn cool. |
Yanksman2001
Member Posts: 24
From: Long Island City, NY, USA
Registered: Jul 2004
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posted 08-20-2005 10:35 AM
But wasn't the problem with the Gemini to the Moon that the Agena was not powerful enough for TLI and TEI. The next generaion Agena, the Centuar, I believe, would not be ready in time. Also I beleive the heat shield was not built to withstand the increased speed the capsule would have as it came back from the moon. |
Dwight
Member Posts: 603
From: Germany
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted 08-20-2005 11:05 AM
Funny I was just reading this section in the David Shayler Gemini book yesterday. It was a consideration, but it was felt that it would further complicate the Apollo program which was already in planning stages. It was interesting to read of an open-window lunar descent! There were also plans up to 1969 to utilize Gemini for military-sponsored purposes (MOL I think it was called). |
mdmyer
Member Posts: 900
From: Humboldt KS USA
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted 08-20-2005 05:03 PM
I just finished reading David Harland's How NASA Learned to Fly in Space. He also mentions the unknowns about the heat shield and how it was thought that a Gemini lunar flight would drain resources from the upcoming Apollo Program. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3440
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 08-21-2005 11:40 AM
I wonder whether the Gemini computer was sophisticated enough to guarantee hitting the right angle for safe re-entry. There wasn't much margin for error. |
Henry Heatherbank
Member Posts: 294
From: Adelaide, South Australia
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 08-23-2005 05:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dwight:
Funny I was just reading this section in the David Shayler Gemini book yesterday.
I am reading the Shayler "Gemini" book at the moment, and I agree, there is a good discussion about hooking up a Gemini to a liquid fuelled Centaur upper stage for lunar missions. Some plans called for a Gemini lunar fly-by (note, not a lunar orbital mission)as early as late '64/early '65!! Time lines later moved to the right, but all of this seems to have been a contingency, to be used at the last minute, should Apollo be delayed and should the Russians be in a position to get there first. |
Klaatu
Member Posts: 60
From: England
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 05-07-2009 09:11 AM
Only speculation I know, but would it have been possible to walk on the Moon in a Gemini EVA spacesuit?The only reason I ask is that they seem to be more manouverable. Just a thought! Editor's note: Threads merged. |
Apolloman
Member Posts: 169
From: Ledignan, Gard (30), France
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 05-07-2009 10:38 AM
Exactly not, once pressurized space suit Gemini is much less handy at the levels of the joint (articulations) (knees, elbows, shoulders) it would have strongly been able to hamper the lunar walking. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-07-2009 10:55 AM
The Gemini suits were based on the Air Force's high altitude pressure suits, with minor modifications, like extra layers for EVA. As such, they weren't designed for doing a lot of movement, but rather to protect a guy flying something like an SR-71 that had lost pressure. When inflated, they assumed the sort of crouched/seated position you see in the Ed White pictures and any movement away from that required a great deal of effort from the wearer. As Gene Cernan's spacewalk showed, any significant movement in the suits tired the astronauts out very quickly and overwhelmed the cooling system. Walking on the moon was therefore simply impossible with these suits. That's even before any extra layers/equipment needed for protection in a lunar environment was added. As further evidence that the Gemini suits were far from lunar ready, you can look at David Clark's (the Gemini suit contractor) efforts to build a suit for Apollo based on the "link net" technology used to give the Gemini suits their flexibility. They lost out pretty definitively to ILC, which built the Apollo suits, in head-to-head competition. |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 05-07-2009 01:06 PM
Manueverability might have been better if they were using 5 PSI internal pressure on the suit (which I believe is what they did use in Gemini and certainly did use in Apollo). The convolutes designed for the Apollo suits worked much better though.Biggest knock against the Gemini suit though was they used gas temperature to regulate suit temperature while the Apollo suits utilized a liquid cooling garment. It was very easy to get overheated in a Gemini suit, as Gene Cernan showed in his spacewalk from hell. In a cockpit with a pilot strapped in, gas temperature is just fine. But when one is moving, an LCG works MUCH better, which is why NASA still uses it in their Shuttle EMUs. |
Obviousman
Member Posts: 438
From: NSW, Australia
Registered: May 2005
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posted 05-07-2009 11:10 PM
Could I clear up what was the internal pressure of the A7L suit? I thought it was 3.5 PSI but have read in places that it was up to 5 PSI. |
Apolloman
Member Posts: 169
From: Ledignan, Gard (30), France
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 05-08-2009 03:00 AM
During an exchange of e-mail with Mr Bill Ayrey (ILC Dover), this one had written me that the space suit worked under 3,5 PSI. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-08-2009 11:11 AM
Mercury and Gemini suits nominally operated at 5 psi. Apollo suits were typically 3.7 psi, but could go up to 5.5 psi before venting. The 3.5psi figure is seen a lot because that's generally regarded as the minimum safe pressurization for humans using pure oxygen. The Apollo suits operated closer to the limit to maximize the flexibility of the suit (the higher the pressure, the stiffer the suit), which wasn't as much of a concern in Mercury or Gemini. |
compass
Member Posts: 42
From: uk
Registered: May 2007
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posted 05-09-2009 08:02 AM
Listening to audio clips from the Apollo Surface Journal, the suit pressures were usually 3.7 -3.8 psi when the capcom routinely asked the crew for such readings whilst on lunar EVA. |
Dwight
Member Posts: 603
From: Germany
Registered: Dec 2003
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posted 05-16-2009 01:55 AM
Just as a side note: When designing the handle for the Westinghouse Lunar TV Camera, the suits used to verify ease of use were indeed Gemini spacesuits. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 05-19-2009 11:34 AM
I suspect that was as much due to the lack of availability of Apollo-type suits as anything else. The Crew Systems Division had many requests for space suits from various contractors and other NASA facilities to use in verifying fit, function, and compatibility of equipment with the space suits. The Apollo prototypes were so few and late in coming that everything from cast-off prototypes, military pressure suits, and earlier program suits were farmed out for these purposes. And even those didn't satisfy the demand. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2486
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 10-29-2010 07:11 AM
One of the proposals for an extended Gemini programme was its use as a lifeboat. Another one in the same study was for a circumlunar or lunar orbiting mission.If this latter had gained approval, what problems might have arisen in its execution or was this just wishful thinking? Editor's note: Threads merged. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2486
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 10-29-2010 08:20 AM
Apologies for missing this thread and re-opening it.Reading the first post makes me wonder where the information came from.* As can be seen from the following entry in the Gemini Chronology, NASA had abandoned any thoughts of lunar missions long before the first Gemini flight. From 31st July 1964 - In response to a request from NASA Headquarters, Gemini Program Office (GPO) provided a study for Gemini missions beyond the 12 originally planned. "The Advanced Gemini Missions Conceptual Study" described 16 further missions, including a space station experiment, a satellite chaser mission, a lifeboat rescue mission, and both a circumlunar and lunar orbiting mission. On February 28, 1965, GPO reported that a preliminary proposal for Gemini follow-on missions to test the land landing system had not been approved. Spare Gemini launch vehicles 13, 14, and 15 were canceled, and there were no current plans for Gemini missions beyond the approved 12-flight program. Incidentally, the picture of the single lunar lander posted by Carmelo in April 2005 can be found in the Gemini Chronology. However, this was linked to a Mercury based lunar mission. [see July 1961]* To answer my own question, having now read the source I see that it was a purely personal idea of what might have happened. |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1327
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 10-29-2010 04:00 PM
Of course, there's always Hollywood to come up with a creative scenario: in the 1968 film 'Countdown', directed by Robert Altman, three astronauts are training for an early Apollo flight when they're advised by NASA that the Soviets will attempt a Moon landing sooner than the US will. A backup plan, 'Project Pilgrim', is dusted off to send a lone astronaut on a Gemini capsule/lander combination (!) Along the way, the veteran military astronaut of the trio (Robert Duvall), is dropped in favor of a civilian geologist-astronaut (shades of Jack Schmitt replacing Joe Engle on Apollo 17). After much jealousy and infighting, Duvall finally tutors his replacement (James Caan) but not before the Soviets launch their cosmonauts to the moon first. Pilgrim is launched anyway (that Gemini-Titan must have had a lot of fuel on board). Before landing, Caan must visually (!) spot an earlier launched shelter-habitat's beacon on the moon. After a few tense minutes, he does, and lands. Descending down a rope ladder (considered as an early exit option for the future LM), he must walk in his suit (much like the one in the photo earlier in this thread) and find the shelter before his oxygen runs out.
But before he does, he comes across the crashed Soviet moon craft (looking like an oversized Voskhod capsule) and its two dead crewmen. He solemnly takes out the hammer-and-sickle flag and his US flag, and places them side-by-side on a boulder. He takes out a good luck charm keychain given to him by his son, and follows the direction it points him to (I guess no GPS is available!). He spots the flashing red beacon, and walks to the shelter. End of film. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2486
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 10-29-2010 04:58 PM
A very good description of the plot. But are you certain it was a Gemini capsule? I thought it was a Mercury that was used. |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1371
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 11-01-2010 07:41 AM
Going through McDonnell's files in the late 1970's I came across a few drawings of a Gemini-Agena combination, planned circumlunar flight. I dismissed it at the time only to be told by a technician, "Oh yes we were working on a heat shield for it." The drawing I saw was for an Agena putting a Gemini on a "free return trajectory" from the moon. NASA may have killed the idea, but McDonnell didn't. Just as we were in a competition with the Russians, McDonnell was in a competition with NAA. |
cddfspace
Member Posts: 612
From: Morris County, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 11-01-2010 10:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
A very good description of the plot. But are you certain it was a Gemini capsule? I thought it was a Mercury that was used.
Just saw this on the IMDb website... Why did only one astronaut get sent? Wasn't the Gemini designed for two people? A technical answer would be that the lunar shelter was designed for one person. The astronaut would spend four days in the Gemini, then 300 to 365 days in the shelter. The Gemini was indeed a two astronaut ship. The only acknowledgement of the issue in the movie is when it is pointed out that the Gemini ship will give "twice the room, twice the air", even though Gemini spacecraft have held a two person crew for as long as two weeks, and the maximum length of a one person Pilgrim flight would be eight days (the 'abort and return to earth' scenario). But the real reason probably is the scripting. The original Hank Searles novel, "The Pilgrim Project", was about sending a Mercury capsule to the Moon, a one astronaut ship. All the plot's issues assume one astronaut: his personality, his relation with his wife. The audience identifies with the one person as he goes all the way to the Moon, to stay there, alone, for a year. To do the same if there were two people would be a major rewrite. They'd need new dialog, and new decisions on the plot. That, more than anything, was probably why the Gemini's capacity was unused. |
Buel
Member Posts: 827
From: UK
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 04-09-2022 07:04 AM
I have just been reading an interview with Pete Conrad where he and his interviewer speak of a plan that was to take a Gemini spacecraft to the Moon.Any other info on this? Editor's note: Threads merged. |
ManInSpace
Member Posts: 281
From: Brooklin, Ontario Canada
Registered: Feb 2018
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posted 04-09-2022 02:53 PM
Pete Conrad lobbied to fly a circumlunar mission on his upcoming Gemini 10 flight. He went as far as D.C. trying to get approval; however Jim Webb shut it down before it could gain any traction. Webb's concern was that such a flight would divert resources from Apollo; at a time when there were already concerns about meeting Kennedy's target date. Also, such a flight while appealing from a P.R. perspective; wasn't required to achieve Apollo's goals. |
Andy Anderson
Member Posts: 108
From: Perth, Australia
Registered: Dec 2009
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posted 04-09-2022 06:10 PM
I have these two documents I downloaded from the NTRS about using a Gemini arrangement for a lunar mission but I cannot seem to locate them there now.I have uploaded the links here from my files; This subject was also raised in another post that initially asked if a Mercury spacecraft could do such a mission. |
dtemple
Member Posts: 753
From: Longview, Texas, USA
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 04-18-2022 10:07 PM
There was a three-part program on PBS as part of the 50th anniversary celebration of Apollo 11. In one of the three parts, William Anders says that Gemini 12 was so successful that NASA canceled Gemini 13 and that he and Armstrong would have been the crew. I have since wondered how he could have gotten so confused; they were the backups for Gemini 11. If anything, they would have rotated into Gemini 14 if there had been such a mission. Clearly, the only possibility of a Gemini 13 and 14 was if circumlunar missions had been seriously planned. The circulunar missions were dropped from consideration long before any crews were selected for them. As noted above, the Titan IIs needed for missions beyond Gemini 12 were canceled at an early stage of the program. Does Anders' comment indicate there may have been some private discussion as late as 1966 (however brief) of flying a Gemini spacecraft around the moon and that Armstrong and Anders may have been the crew? Seemingly, such a discussion would have come to light years ago in an astronauts' autobiography, or some other related book. I just cannot think of any reason why Anders would have made the statement about Gemini 13 being canceled when by all indications no such mission was ever seriously planned. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 1061
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 04-19-2022 11:21 AM
The Circumlunar Flyby in 1967 study included in Apogee's Gemini 12 NASA Mission Reports suggests that such a mission might have been flown in the "second quarter" of 1967, after perhaps two test missions were flown.However, had the Gemini circumlunar mission flown then, and given the total estimated flight time of 8-9 days, the crew might have been subjected to intense radiation from the massive solar flare that occurred around May 23rd of that year. Our understanding of: (1) the danger presented by solar flares to humans, and (2) our ability to predict them, was in its infancy. With this in mind I view the lack of a Gemini circumlunar mission not as an opportunity missed, but a bullet dodged. |
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