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Author
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Topic: STS 107 sale/trade items - shaming !!!
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Moonmichael
Member Posts: 157
From: Essen, Germany
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 02-01-2003 01:34 PM
   
Godspeed to the Crew of STS 107 !!!I would not like to be the moral apostell,
but I think the current price increases of
STS 107 autographs/patches .... are shaming.
Is only the (fast) money determine our hobby ? Have we no other problems in this time ? What do you think ? I hope, you can understand my bad English. Moonmichael www.space-autographs.com
Germany |
John K. Rochester
Member Posts: 1292
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 02-01-2003 02:20 PM
..it is unfortunate, Michael, that some feel the need to profit on such a tragedy. It would be folly to say that True Collectors should place a moratorium on STS -107.. for those who ARE in it for a buck will certainly jump at the chance to triple their investment. |
sapper82
Member Posts: 169
From: Canada
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 02-01-2003 02:24 PM
As a patch collector I had to take a look on Ebay just to see if.....and sure enough the STS-107 patch, usually retailing for about $4 is going for $75+....and auctions are still running. Some are over $100.Incredible. ------------------
Andrew B. Godefroy, MA, FBIS
Ontario, Canada |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42986
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-01-2003 02:32 PM
I think there is a difference between selling patches and other mass produced collectibles, and selling autographs or debris.The earlier may be a form of tribute. I know I immediately went searching for my STS-107 pin to wear. I see no problem with allowing sale of collectibles (as long as prices aren't raised as a result of the tragedy). |
Matt T
Member Posts: 1368
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-01-2003 02:45 PM
I guess everyone should go with their own conscience on this whilst bearing in mind that the Space Collectibles section of eBay is one of the most public faces of our hobby.The fact that over a quarter of the items added since the news broke are Columbia related leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. My sympathy to the families. Matt |
icarkie
Member Posts: 618
From: BURTON ON TRENT /England
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted 02-01-2003 02:52 PM
I've just checked the ebay site.The price of the launch programmes are hitting the roof (one guy is not content in bidding for just one).Its a shame the trading of STS 107 items cannot be suspended for a while as a mark of respect.
God bless them.
Ian.. |
riolag
Member Posts: 81
From: Fl, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 02-01-2003 03:31 PM
The only story that BBC News 24 has been covering since the news came through is the Shuttle tradegy. I'm currently listening / watching - just off the NASA briefing's about to startI know that there are people who show no respect and are just out for a quick buck, but I have to say that this one takes the packet of biscuits! Sorry I can't bring myself to put up the link, but he's selling the following domain names in one go, not surprising that this is a private auction. SPACESHUTTLECOLUMBIATRAGEDY.COM
SPACESHUTTLEDISASTER.US
SPACESHUTTLECOLUMBUADISASTER.US
SPACESHUTTLECOLUMBIADISASTER.NET
SPACESHUTTLECOLUMBIADISASTER.INFO
SPACESHUTTLECRASH.INFO
SPACESHUTTLECRASH.US Val |
sapper82
Member Posts: 169
From: Canada
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 02-01-2003 04:35 PM
Robert,Good point, I can certainly relate to the desire to show support through patches and pins. I guess what I find a bit amazing is that these patches are available by other means than Ebay, and for much less. But, I guess that's the nature of the market and I wouldn't blame anyone for responding to it. Cheers, ------------------
Andrew B. Godefroy, MA, FBIS
Ontario, Canada |
Spaceflyer
Member Posts: 194
From: Nauheim, Germany
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 02-01-2003 05:43 PM
I fully agree with Michael. This is a bad day for us as space enthusiast that we lost this crew and the orbiter Columbia. I hate those people which are now try to make the big money about Mission STS-107! I will never buy or sell anything what I have in my collection of any of these STS-107 crew! I inteviewed Kalpana Chawla and Mike Anderson a few years ago and had a good relationship to them. I will never forget them.Godspeed the Crew of STS-107. Spaceflyer |
mensclub10@aol.com
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posted 02-01-2003 06:34 PM
My heart goes out to our fallen heroes. How fortunate they were that they spent their final days living out their dreams. And to those of you that are trying to make a fast buck out of this, SHAME ON YOU! |
Rodina
Member Posts: 836
From: Lafayette, CA
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 02-01-2003 06:41 PM
Some of that stuff was clearly up before the accident, so be fair to those who might just have gotten... well... right on their timing. |
Matt T
Member Posts: 1368
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001
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posted 02-01-2003 08:30 PM
Just took my nightly look at eBay before bed...About 80% of the items posted since the accident are now Columbia related. The number of items in the Shuttle section is about three times higher than I've seen, way into the several hundreds. I'm just stunned at the sheer volume of people who have reacted in this fashion. I can understand how people might wish to commemorate the crew and the ship by having something to remember them by. But there is nothing respectful about selling items within hours of this tragedy regardless of how you dress up the sales pitch. Elsewhere tonight I've read the argument that sellers wouldn't sell if there weren't buyers to create the demand. It's a simple piece of business logic but it misses a fundamental point - before you're a buyer or a seller you are first and foremost a human being. If we can't put collecting and dealing aside for the scant time it would take to give this crew their dignity then when can we? Goodnight,
Matt |
icarkie
Member Posts: 618
From: BURTON ON TRENT /England
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted 02-02-2003 09:13 AM
I agree with Matt and Sapper82 with the patches.I hope the people who bid $40-50 and even $140 for a single patch will check ebay out in 10 /12 months time when the same items are going for $6-$8 again.
Ian
God bless STS 107... |
diamond
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posted 02-02-2003 12:27 PM
Hello, The seller Donnis Willis listed this STS 1 flown american flag/cert. for the outrages beginner bid of $799.00
This is not an auction this is taking advantage of one of the worst Shuttle disaster in the brief space program.
A bit more respect for the 7 Columbia heros.
A week ago this flag/cert. was sold for the reasonable price of about $255.00 !!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3205276956 [This message has been edited by collectSPACE Admin (edited February 03, 2003).] |
John K. Rochester
Member Posts: 1292
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 02-02-2003 02:52 PM
A markup of $77.71 per life......you should be ashamed to market that item right now! |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42986
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-02-2003 03:03 PM
It appears that Donnis (Lunar Legacies) has closed his STS-1 flag auction. |
spaceuk
Member Posts: 2113
From: Staffs, UK
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 02-02-2003 05:05 PM
I've dealt with Donnis for many years and he has always been fair and willing.I think it may be just too unfortunate that he was probably creating and releasing his website whilst this tragedy was unfolding. There are peole here in UK who have ONLY just learned about the tragedy .This is because at weekends they tend to be 'elsewhere' other than in front TV,radio,newspapers etc. My own sister only learned mid morning today after I told her ! I am certain that Donnis would not take 'advantage' of this tragedy. He is not that sort of person - having met him personally. Additionally,he lives in Cape area amongst many workers there at KSC. So he will know the impact this tragedy has caused.
I think it will be just an unfortunate set of citcumstances for Donnis on this one.
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andrewcarson
Member Posts: 349
From: Liverpool UK
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 02-02-2003 05:36 PM
Remember..that people taking advantage now have to deal with collectors in the future..their short term gain....could mean a long term loss. I for one wont buy anything off anyone taking advantage.Andrew |
diamond
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posted 02-02-2003 07:39 PM
Hello collectors,
Don't make me believe that Donnis did not know about the lost Shuttle Columbia at the time he listed that STS 1 flown flag/cert. Here the time he listed Feb-01-03 15:46:24 PST that is 6-7 hours after the tragedy and he lives right at the Cape. It was a cheap try to take advantage of this --- (I better don't say it). He has already ended this auction with lie..."The seller ended this listing early because of an error in the listing." An error what error he knew the asking price is $799.00!!!!!!!!!!! I pray for the souls of seven Astronauts but not for people like ------ ------!!!!!!!!!!
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Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42986
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-02-2003 07:44 PM
Okay, calm down. The "reason" for closing the auction can only be selected eBay's choices -- that might have been the only one applicable. Did you contact Donnis directly? Instead of attacking him here, perhaps you should first find out the circumstances?
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Robonaut
Member Posts: 259
From: Solihull, West Mids, England
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 02-02-2003 08:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Matt T:
but it misses a fundamental point - before you're a buyer or a seller you are first and foremost a human being. If we can't put collecting and dealing aside for the scant time it would take to give this crew their dignity then when can we?Goodnight,
Matt
Matt I think you said it all. Rob Wood |
diamond
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posted 02-02-2003 09:02 PM
Hello Robert Pearlman,
There is nothing more to say about this STS 1 flown flag/cert. ebay listing. I'm pretty calm but people like this make me very sad. They take one advantage after another. There is no circumstance what would justify this listing which he "Thank God" early cancelled!
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willisdj
Member Posts: 37
From: Satsuma, AL 36572
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 02-03-2003 01:15 AM
I am not a chatty person when it comes to forums such as this, and rarely visit this site, although it is a great one, and I am only here now because of an email I received saying I was being refered to in a less than flattering way. In and of itself that is fine, because I am not perfect and I make mistakes, and I can take criticism, but after reading the posts here, it seems that one contributer, "diamond", a person I believe I have never met, thinks he knows me well enough to breathlessly describe my selfish character and sinister intentions to the world and pass it off as his own personal revelation.I did put the STS-1 flag on ebay. It was originally meant for my website on the Rare/Exceptional page with the rest of my flags, and it had been lying near my computer for a couple weeks, because I had forgotten to include it when I first made the page last month. On that page, I put the prices a bit higher because it does not break my heart if I don't sell them. So I put it on ebay for $795, which was the price I would have had on my website, and it is not outrageous. Mr. "diamond" must have had a vision about what a suitable price for an STS-1 flag is, but I can't remember ever selling one for under $500, and the last one was on my site for $750 and eventually sold for six something. I personally believe they are worth it. STS-2, 3 and 4 flags are indeed about $250. So I thought it would be interesting to put it on ebay and see what happened. Unlike Mr diamond, who no doubt rushed to his computer, with money on his mind, within 15 minutes of the Columbia accident to play ebay cop, I was oblivious to what was happening on ebay until the late afternoon, because I was barely on the computer before that time.
I saw the unbelievable prices being realized, and being the selfish, greedy person I am, did not list on ebay my numerous STS-107 patches, decals and pins. I also did not raise prices on my website on a single item. However, I thought a significant collectible or two would be a worthwhile addition and fun to watch, so I listed the flag and a small strap on ebay, neither one directly concerning STS-107 or the crew members. I did not attach an exhorbitant Buy it Now or reserve. Having slept on it and thus continuing to think about it the next day, I was uncomfortable, and I decided I had acted hastily, and concluded it wasn't the best thing to do, so I removed the two listings - one even had a bid that I also canceled. I guess I figured I got caught up in the moment and now regret it. So shoot me. By the way Mr. diamond, to cancel a listing, ebay only gives you 2 or 3 reasons, and you have to select one - it does not let you write the reason in your own words, at least not that I saw. No reason fit, so I picked one. I believe Mr. diamond called me a liar because he read ebay's canned message to the listing being cancelled. Only a buffoon would think I actually started out my reason with "The seller....". But I'm positive Mr. diamond feels much better about himself thinking he has knocked me and many others down a peg. I personally think what is happening on ebay is just another Christies all over again, with a million new and highly uninformed buyers coming onto the scene, for whatever reason, with too much money and an unrealistic sense of urgency. No one is holding a gun to any buyer's head, and welcome corrections will come in only a matter of hours or days. No one likes it, but this is just human nature - the good, bad and ugly. Hell, prices for OJ memorabilia went up when he shot his wife, so go figure that.
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willisdj
Member Posts: 37
From: Satsuma, AL 36572
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 02-03-2003 01:26 AM
Now on to other things. I was ready with my binoculars to hopefully see the shuttle coming in, and was watching the NASA channel in the meantime. What happened was just unbelievable, and quite chilling for sure. I can relate in a small way to what the families are going through with the shock and disbelief of losing a family member in a sudden and unexpected fashion, and I know that it will take much time to heal. I pray for the 7 astronauts and their families. |
bisiauxt
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posted 02-03-2003 02:36 AM
These attacks against Donnis are totally unacceptable and unfounded.Donnis is one of the best to deal with, but also a very friendly and nice man. In this time of deep sadness, there is no room for so crazy assertion. It is the time of rememberance, prayers and compassion. All my best Thierry |
sapper82
Member Posts: 169
From: Canada
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 02-03-2003 03:19 AM
Hi Donnis (and others),You've reinforced my point in the thread I started on sellers and buyers...sharing the blame. I agree with you that the buyers/ bidders should be taking/ receiving a bit more of the attention for the surge in prices. It's always easy to pick on the sellers, but the buyers can act irresponsibly and be applauded for it. Your Christie's analogy is a good one. I'm not a dealer, but I can't fathom people blaming their reckless abandon on the people they're buying from.
------------------
Andrew B. Godefroy, MA, FBIS
Ontario, Canada |
Glenn Holland Signatures
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posted 02-03-2003 05:26 AM
I feel that I must echo the sentiments of Spaceuk with regard to some of the comments levelled at Donnis Willis.
Don is one of the nicest guys I have ever dealt with, and his knowledge of the space programme, and indeed, his love of the space programme, never ceases to amaze me.
Don is not just a dealer in space memorabilia, he is a true enthusiast, and I think that this has been somewhat missing from the comments made in this forum.
I called Don on Saturday afternoon, UK time, just after news of the Columbia tragedy was being reported.
Don advised me that his phone had been ringing constantly, mainly from people he didn’t even know, who had all been after anything he had that was Columbia related.
He didn’t increase his prices, and take advantage of the situation, but was surprised at the speed with which some people jumped at the opportunity to cash in.
Of all the people to call him to that point, only I had asked him how he felt about the disaster, and it was clearly evident to me that he was gutted, extremely upset, and like the rest of us, in shock.
Don had been on his roof waiting for the shuttle to emerge when the news broke. He watches every single shuttle launch, and landing, from this position, and has even sent me pictures in the past so as to share these moments.
These are the acts of a real enthusiast, a devotee, a man with a passion for the wonders of Space travel, not a merciless opportunist, out to make a quick buck on the backs of the 7 who perished.
Those who know Don will know this to be true. Those who don't, like Mr 'Diamond', would do well to remember it in future.
And as for the flag,... well I knew he was adding the flag to his website because he mentioned this, and other items, to me last week when I asked him what we could expect to see, and although I was surprised that it turned up on Ebay, I don’t actually think the price was inflated.
A flown flag from the very first shuttle mission is a highly desirable, collectable, item. I for one, would love to have this in my collection, and may well buy it in the future.
Why?. Because I am very much a collector and enthusiast first, and a dealer second.
Just like Donnis Willis.
Regards,
Philip Young www.glennhollandsignatures.com |
diamond
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posted 02-03-2003 12:06 PM
Hello Philip Young, www.glennhollandsignatures.com
You are not better than Donnis W. you take advantage using this forum. You use it to advertise your webpage!
Also how can Donnis watch every single Shuttle launch and landing from his roof in Satsuma, AL 36572.?! That's another lie as he lives right at the Cape. Regarding his listing he could have revised his listing. You don't have to end the auction because of errors! About his webpage; of course he did not raise the prices because some items are already outrages high. Mr. Advantagetaker got the space items for very cheap if not free. Yes it's about time to cash in now. I don't blame you Donnis.... |
Glenn Holland Signatures
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posted 02-03-2003 12:33 PM
My, my Mr Diamond. We are cynical aren't we!!
But then you don't have a name do you?. Except 'Diamond' that is. No name in your profile, no email address, in fact no identification at all. So you hide behind a pseudonym, spitting out your sanctimonious drivel, yet feel qualified to use these pages to slag off people with far more honour than you will ever have.
Not very mature, 'Diamond', is it?.
Oh, and yes I do have a website, as do many people who write to Collectspace, and many of them sign their name in the same way as me, though I was not 'advertising' it as you were so quick to point out. Force of recent habit prompted me to sign my name as such. I will not make the same mistake again. God forbid that I would ever give the likes of anonymous characters like you, any ammunition to fire back at me.
Now leave us all in peace. I think there are far more important things to occupy our thoughts at this time.
Philip Young. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42986
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-03-2003 01:02 PM
diamond, Philip -This discussion ends here. Exception was raised with Donnis' auction. Donnis stopped the auction. He replied with his retraction. There is absolutely no need to discuss this further. |
diamond
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posted 02-03-2003 01:27 PM
Mr.Pearlman,
I agree that the discussion must end. To bad people like Philip Young always must have the last word.
I'll not post more about those people as it could damage their image and I'm fair and will not go that far.
You guys are right my time is much to tight to go on here forever...Again I will not share more insights...Happy collecting!
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John K. Rochester
Member Posts: 1292
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 02-03-2003 01:36 PM
..As many of us might feel as though there is nothing we can do .. how about this? If you are a seller, or a collector.. donate to the Columbia Children's Fund in honor of those who gave their lives in the pursuit of Space Science and those left behind in this terrible tragedy. Or even have Robert set up a collection of donations that can be made in behalf of all of us who frequent CollectSpace.. |
Glenn Holland Signatures
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posted 02-03-2003 02:09 PM
Hi Robert. I agree with your sentiments and will refrain from further argument. I also agree with John K, Rochester's idea of a donation to the Columbia childrens fund. I remember Florian Noller doing something simular for the World Trade Centre fund, when he auctioned several items on Ebay and donated the proceeds. I would very much be in favour of something like that here, with all collectors and dealers alike auctioning off 1 item, with any money generated by their sales going to the fund John mentioned.
I may be asking for trouble again here, but if there were enough interested parties I would offer my services to this venture, and look at ways of doing it myself, i.e. gathering the items, doing the admin, arranging the sales, and the listings on Ebay, and documenting all transactions etc.
It would be an honour.
I think that the collectspace community could, and perhaps should, do something at this time, and I would be very interested to know how other members feel about it.
It's a great idea John.
Philip Young |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42986
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-03-2003 02:19 PM
I think it is too early to start planning charity auctions.I commend the idea and I certainly support anyone who wants to donate directly to either of the two funds announced, but an auction at this time would only get lost in the mess that is eBay (or ignored if held elsewhere) and would do less good than if held later. Unlike the events of 9-11, there is no one in desparate need of assistance. The families are being well cared for by NASA and the astronaut corps. There will be time to assemble a proper response in the coming weeks and month. I have not decided if I will organize something for the families as of yet (like I did with Heroes Helping Heroes for 9-11) but it is an idea that has crossed my mind.
[This message has been edited by Robert Pearlman (edited February 03, 2003).] |
Cliff Lentz
Member Posts: 655
From: Philadelphia, PA USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 02-03-2003 03:00 PM
I just noticed STS 107 Press kits on sale on Ebay. These are printouts of the PDF files that were offered on the NASA website for FREE! Granted, NASA may have closed the site temporary, At least I can't open it. This is something I uploaded last July like I do for all missions. If anyone wants a copy just email me offline and I'm sure you guys won't do the same thing!Cliff |
Steven Kaplan
Member Posts: 140
From: New Jersey
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 02-03-2003 03:08 PM
Following up Cliff's messge, as of 5 minutes ago, the press kit can still be downloaded from www.shuttlepresskit.com, the usual source for these documents. It makes e-bay unnecesary for this one![This message has been edited by Steven Kaplan (edited February 03, 2003).] |
Glenn Holland Signatures
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posted 02-03-2003 03:41 PM
Fair point Robert about the idea of an auction, and of course, you're right. But please note the offer of help stands for whenever any such event might take place, and for whoever runs it.
Philip Young. |
Jurg Bolli
Member Posts: 977
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 02-03-2003 05:55 PM
Hi everybody,
I don't have the time nor the patience to read all of the comment in this thread, but I do want to say one thing:
Donnis Willis is, in my experience, a very honest, fair and nice guy, I have NEVER had any doubts about his sincerity, and I have never had any problems buying or selling anything.
He is very fair and a nice guy.
My 2 cents worth.
Jurg Bolli |
riolag
Member Posts: 81
From: Fl, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 02-03-2003 06:08 PM
Hi Philip and everyone elseI don't post often, but agree that an auction to raise money would be a good idea - although possibily running it in a couple of weeks or a month when emotions are not quite so high and some of the numbness has gone. Perhaps those who have contacts with astronauts past and present wouldn't mind approaching them to ask for donations as well. I would suggest though that the auction be held on Astro-auctions, that way all the funds raised will go to the charities and ebay doesn't gain even more from this tragedy. This will allow us (apart from direct donations) to visibly show our support to one of the sources of the hobby we love so much. Just my tuppence. Val Keep the Dream Alive |
willisdj
Member Posts: 37
From: Satsuma, AL 36572
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 02-03-2003 06:10 PM
Hello again. It has been interesting reading the latest posts, especially the ones from "diamond", the man with no name. I agree that this line of posts needs to end, but "diamond" goes way beyond any constructive criticism, and gleefully crosses the line into personal attacks, and since he was the aggressor, he does not merit the last word in my mind. What diamond says about me means nothing since he has zero influence on my life, but I know for a fact that Philip Young is a man of honor, thoughtfulness, patience and integrity, and it is obvious to the most casual observer that diamond would indeed be envious of that. I enjoyed meeting Philip shortly after I moved from Satsuma to the Cape, and we had a great time; however, I am quite disappointed that he did not remind me to change my home address on my CollectSpace account profile. I never dreamed it would cause such consternation among the clueless. We will all weep at the loss of diamond's "insights".I would be glad to donate items for an auction the help the Columbia Children's fund, and I support and encourage the idea when the time comes. In fact, in my own small way, I have been doing things similar to that for years. Having a somewhat findable website, I receive requests at least 5 or 6 times a year to donate space items to Scout troops, church auctions, schools and even individuals in foreign countries, and I have never refused. Just last week I sent a heavy package of patches, decals and booklets to an enthusiastic space kid in Macedonia for free. This does not hurt me. but is only my own small way of spreading my enthisiasm of the space program, and I hope others would do the same. |
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