posted 05-31-2005 01:46 AM            

Tahir, I don't understand your comment at all. Just how has this thread become harmful to the hobby? What you wrote is a blurb, with nothing to back it up. Part of your last statement was intriguing however; "Let's try to stick with the evidence".....This is what I've been advocating and pushing for, but it seems the only thing some people want to know is, who is "earlyduke"? It's a petulant and immature response.

posted 05-31-2005 01:59 AM               

Though I hold several College degrees in both Engineering and the Humanities, I don't claim to know everything about human thinking and behavior.

Tnere is one thing that I know, though, which is the fact that only through respect, understanding, and Humility can we really advance this Hobby.

posted 05-31-2005 08:50 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by earlyduke:
Well, so far, Al, the only reason I can see that people are interested more in my identity than in my ideas is for the purpose of redirecting the debate so that it becomes more about me, and less about the matter I'm trying to address. I could be someone you detest, or respect, or have no knowledge of whatsoever, but the fact that you, and Scott, don't care to address my ideas without knowing who I am is something that seems to me, cowardly. (I've taken a number of post-graduate courses in Logic, Reasoning and Attitude-Formation, and a common thread that ran through the lessons was that anytime someone is trying to interject personality into an issue, it is a sign of attempting to avoid dealing with the actual problem at hand. But I could be as wrong as you, who knows)?

---

I can't speak for Scott or anyone else, but let me say in MY happenstance, it has purely to do with my reasons stated. Simply lets me know whereof you speak (or if you know whereof you speak) - as I indicated before.

However if YOU insist on making it personal, then that's fine.

Cowardly in your scenario? Hardly - and nice try at deflection. We'll address what you have to say - when we know what's up. We just appreciate a level playing field which, you insist on tilting in your favor.

You know, we can pontificate all we want about being anonymous and dealing with issues etc etc etc, and touting our post graduate education, whatever. But it still doesn't erase the fact that when you are anonymous, it weakens your stance.

If you were someone I despised, I am mature enough to overlook that and deal with the issues you may bring forth. There are folks I do not care for on this board and I see a lot of things they write I agree with, and disagree with.

No my friend, you have your reasons for staying behind the scenes, thats fine. But again, it leaves out a major portion of the equation in a discusssion. Answer all you wish, I am done with this debate as it's gotten too far off topic. Hence, feel free to have the last word.

Cheers,

Al

posted 05-31-2005 11:42 AM            

As I'm not touting any expertise, or lack thereof, of my own, I take what you're saying to mean, Al, is that you are essentially unwilling to entertain someone putting forth the proposition that 1 + 1 = 2, unless you know who that person is.

It is also my contention that my personal information is entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand, and I'll now prove it.

My name is Yves Drossier, I have my own consulting company in Southern California, and I've been a space collecter for almost 10 years, and a cS reader for about 2.

Now that I've disclosed who I am, and a little about myself, and it adds absolutely NOTHING to the debate here, perhaps some will now want to engage the ISSUE I've put forward. Somehow I doubt it. Attitude formation teaches that illogically formed resistance, once established, is difficult to overcome; I don't think that lesson will be contradicted here.

posted 05-31-2005 01:17 PM               

Revealing your identity will not change your LOGIC or ARGUMENT. However, I think it do something to the CS family on an EMOTIONALLY level and might even bring your own views into a better focus!

posted 05-31-2005 01:17 PM               

I've been sitting on the sidelines watching this interesting banter and I've got to add a couple of thoughts.

Zee, first off this is NOT a marriage, it's a space collector & information board. A marriage is where I get to do the horizontal rhumba with my wife a couple of times a week and if she leaves me, she get's to take 1/2 of my stuff. I can assure you that nobody on this board want's to get that intimate with one another. 2nd, nobody really cares about how many degrees you have. It's wonderful that you're educated, but what relevance does it have with what's going on???

EarlyDuke,

You're missing the core issue of why members want to know who they're talking to. The fact is that you have never invested anything of yourself on this board, nobody know's your expertise, your background and it's obvious you have no intention of putting yourself out there for other members to know. In order to have your opinions & thoughts respected by other members, it's important that you avail a little of yourself so we know that you're not some troll.

Would you take the advice from a stockbroker or attorney or a doctor without knowing his/her background & expertise? If you wouldn't, then I have some prime beach front property in Florida I'd like to sell you, cheap.

IMHO, this board is an incredible place to learn and exchange information on because of people like Robert, Scott, Tahir, Albatron, John Fongheiser, John Rochester, Bob M, Ken H and the dozens of other very experienced and very dedicated collectors.

These men have helped thousands of collectors, they've been there for the members of this board for FREE and they've heavily invested their expertise for all to enjoy, merely for the asking. How many collectors have you helped from making a mistake or how about letting us know what your background is so your opionion can be taken seriously.

The fact of the matter is that these experts put themselves and their reputations on the line with every post. They're here for inexperienced collectors to learn from, they avail themselves to helping and educating people for free. They do it because they love the field of space collecting and want to make sure it's not destroyed by the scumbags that are creating better & better forgeries every minute.

So I don't understand is why you'd question these proven "experts" as to why they want to know who their talking to. So far you're the only one who's afraid of letting the collecting community know who you are, or what your background is, or what your expertise is.

How are you to garner any respect or understanding of your position without letting people know what you bring to the table. These other experts & collectors who you question their ethics & motives, have no problem putting their reputations and expertise on the line. I don't see any such investment from you, so it's easy for you to sit back and be critical of everyone who doesn't agree with you.

God knows I've had my fair share of arguements with members of this board, but the fact remains that these people who you're fighting with, have gone out of their way to share their expertise with the members of this board. I see no such investment of your expertise by you, which is why you have gained no respect or trust with the large number of members who are watching this thread. I've used the word "investment" quite a bit, because spending your time teaching others requires an investment of yourself, but it seems that you don't value that aspect.

What is a glaring reality to most of us, is how impressed you are with yourself, and it's equally obvious that you enjoy talking down to people, not to people. That's fine and it's good to have a healthy ego, but you're confusing other collectors proven expert opinions, as them showing off their ego. Their not showing off, they're displaying their hard learned expertise with everyone and for that I have to say a big THANK YOU.

The guys here who've made themselves available to the inexperienced collector are a God send. Their years of knowledge are happily passed down for others to learn from and the vast majority of the members of this board owe them a debt of gratitude. So far, you've done nothing and shown nothing to the members of this board that earns you an ounce of respect.

Ray

posted 05-31-2005 02:59 PM            

Why don't you think a bit more about what you wrote? What I've brought to this board is essentially no different that what you might find on any given day when you open a morning newspaper in an unfamiliar city and read the editorial page. Someone who writes for the newspaper puts out an opinion, and after considering it, you can take it for something meaningful, if you find it such, or disregard it if you find it of little value. I've never found myself turning the newspaper upside down and inside out just so I could tear off Zorro's mask. But that's apparently what's paramount here.

Also, you write about some of the people here as if smugness or ego problems have never plagued a previous cS debate before I chimed in. For lack of being more erudite, please...give me a break.

There have been more disagreements on this board that can be chalked up to ego, ad hominim attacks and sheer pomposity than just about anything else, frequently involving some of the same people you mentioned as being so selfless. Forgive me if I choose not to go along with your rose-colored-glasses view of what transpires here far too often.

posted 05-31-2005 11:38 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by earlyduke:
Why don't you think a bit more about what you wrote? What I've brought to this board is essentially no different that what you might find on any given day when you open a morning newspaper in an unfamiliar city and read the editorial page. Someone who writes for the newspaper puts out an opinion, and after considering it, you can take it for something meaningful, if you find it such, or disregard it if you find it of little value. I've never found myself turning the newspaper upside down and inside out just so I could tear off Zorro's mask. But that's apparently what's paramount here.

]

---

That is a specious argument that actually invalidates your point. There are no anonymous editors, every one has a name and a byline and most importantly a way to contact them to "discuss" their opinion. I totally understand wanting to remain anonymous, but if you want to have a conversation (it is stretching the point to call what we do on this board conversing sometimes), isn't it polite and courteous to introduce yourself? Speaking for myself, I don't want to know your home address or your secret recipe for chocolate chip cookies, I just want to have a name to put with the conversation.

My two cents, and back to the original question of this thread, I will definitely be purchasing one.

posted 05-31-2005 11:49 PM               

Its not about names - its about backgrounds. Thats my point. In that vein, nothing mean spirited about what IM saying - not in the least. Nor did I feel Rays was either.

Nope Robert does not require you to post background information, but that information DOES bring legitimacy to your points.

No I wouldnt ignore an equation as simplistic as 1+1 = 2, and that my friends, is an over simplification.

Cheers!

posted 06-01-2005 12:53 AM               

"Love is not Love ... Till You give it Away!"

posted 06-01-2005 10:23 AM            

Even if I had the money I don't care for the artwork. Truthfully, I think that it is pretty bad and don't care who signed it, I wouldn't hang it on my walls. If this were done on a photo of the Earthrise with superimposed photos of the MWers I would probably go for it.

Sorry to interrupt the secondary thread with input to the primary thread.

posted 06-01-2005 01:28 PM            

Secondly, I did give my name, if that will indeed suffice for you; please check
a few posts back.
I do, however, take certain exception to the question you posed, "isn't it
polite and courteous to introduce yourself"?,
since it intimates if one fails to do so in a lengthy enough fashion, it is a de
facto sign of rudeness and a snub of sorts to
other cS members. Though I didn't post my biography, list the inventory of my
space collection or display my C.V., I did
start off by addressing everyone here in a courteous, respectful and affable
manner. Apparently that wasn't enough for
some people before demands started to flow that I either jettison my anonymity,
or prepare to be ostracized.
Thanks for the warm welcome, guys.

While I don't dispute that I needn't be taken seriously if I begin my cS posting
"career" by insisting, without anything to
back myself up, that I know at least as much, or more, than anyone else here
when it comes to things like determining authenticity
and such, the backlash that ensued merely because I dared to make a suggestion
and ask for other opinions, while declining to
elaborate about myself, was totally uncalled for. THAT is what I would consider
rude and discourteous.
(I'm not including you, Tom, in that category).

Al, at this point, what can I say? If it is still your position that my points
have no legitimacy without further disclosure as to my
background, I still reject it because, logically, it doesn't hold water. An
opinion, or a suggestion, my friend, cannot be legitimate
or illegitimate; only an assertion can. (I didn't make an assertion; I made a
suggestion, and asked for other opinions).
An opinion or suggestion can have merit however, and merit can be judged wholly
apart from any information about the person
rendering the opinion or making the suggestion. Any calls for personal
background information are therefore, IPSO FACTO, extraneous to
the issue, and amount to, wittingly or not, an attempt to personalize or
otherwise obfuscate the issue, which is just what I earlier asserted
I was trying to avoid.

posted 06-01-2005 08:38 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott:
This idea that people wildly and irresponsibly trash items is a joke. There are many collectors that post on cS who

Be grateful there's people who care enough to stick their necks for free and get berated just to try and keep you from getting ripped off.

---

This thread is deja vu all over again.

For almost a decade I've been hearing about "wildly irresponsible trashing" of certain questionable styles. Yet, in retrospect, there may have been isolated cases where singular signatures were wrongly criticized, yet I can't recall one STYLE that was wrongly criticized.

First, I was "wildly irresponsible" by questioning the Peachstates and suggesting the Flag Test.

Next, Gerry Montague and I were branded as "wildly irresponsible" by identifying the "hooktails." (A name which I coined by the way.)

Next, I was branded a "racist" because I dared to suggest a certain style was eminating in high number from Germany. Today, this style is accepted by most collectors as definate fakes. (I'm still waiting for the apologies LOL)

Next, I identified the Peachstate fake Collins and how to spot them. (Okay, most people were on-board for this one. ;-))

And yes, regarding the problematic Collins with the Apollo XI inscriptions that appeared in great numbers BEFORE Novaspace signings... the flaw is in the signature, not the inscriptions.

But, Scott, you are correct. The Good Samaritans in this hobby get the public brickbats from those with an agenda and an inventory to protect.

I have never made a PENNY from the hundreds and hundreds of Armstrongs I have authenticated for people. Almost everyday I get a scan or two in my email from people asking for an opinion, and I don't mind helping.

posted 06-01-2005 10:11 PM               

Steve was the first as far as I know to recognize the suspect style Armstrongs apparently coming out of Germany. The racist charge leveled against him was/is absurd and pathetic. Those who were most "offended" by someone pointing these out should have been looking for the dead body under the house, but instead have been spraying air freshener for years. Sadly, as Steve points out, it seems finding out where these are coming from is not a priority for many who could help.

It amazes me that some of the same people who can't get it through their skulls about this suspect German style also were dragged kicking and screaming into reality during the whole Peachstate thing. Some of them make the OJ jury seem bright. I had one prominent space autograph dealer tell me last month that he doesn't subscribe to the flag test. I'm not joking. Knock knock, anybody home?

I and many others completely empathize with what Steve says above about the frustrations encountered when you're just trying to help other collectors. You're accused of having an "agenda" or of jealousy by saps and ingrates who take as gospel the words of people who sell to them and ignore those who give them free advice and have no monetary stake. Apparently it's true about no good deed goes unpunished.

Steve's not wanting to say anything more publicly about styles is, while a loss, completely understandable.

posted 06-02-2005 06:14 AM            

Well there you have it,.....just what Robert called for; the kind of civility
and community spirit
that just warms the cockles of your heart.

Well, who knows? Maybe there's no need to discuss anything, really. Maybe
Michael Wright and
others with similar Armstrong style signed items should just start stoking their
paper shredders with them right now.

Seriously, where in this thread has anybody made any accusations of anyone
"wildly and irresponsibly" trashing anything?
Why such hyperbole? There was just a simple suggestion (made, in fact, by other
"seasoned" collectors elsewhere as well), that certain
discussions that might turn contentious and possibly lead to unintentional
harmful consequences, might be better, perhaps, held offline,
via private e-mails. Oh, but now I understand. Any strutting of one's own
expertise and sleuthing abilities should be carried out
online, to dazzle, (else, what's the fun?), but the debate over the suggestion
to move sensitive matters offline,
must itself be held only offline. The last time I encountered anything
remotely like this was when I was about 7, and some
neighborhood playmate decided if I wasn't going to play by his rules he was
going to just pick up his ball and go home.

For me, the issue in this thread was NEVER about the challenging of certain
people's expertise in autograph authentication,
or doubting that the intentions of those offering their experience and insight
was to be helpful and sharing with others.
It was about the exercising of good judgement, the use of proper discretion,
and careful consideration of tangential consequences
when sowing doubt over matters where comfort of certainty previously held sway.

posted 06-02-2005 10:06 AM               

LOL

It amazes me that some of the same people who can't get it through their skulls about this suspect German style also were dragged kicking and screaming into reality during the whole Peachstate thing. Some of them make the OJ jury seem bright. I had one prominent space autograph dealer tell me last month that he doesn't subscribe to the flag test.

There is a certain style of Armstrong signature which I see all the time, and is often sent to me for my opinion. With 90% accuracy, I can guess that this item was obtained from one of a group of four dealers.

Now think about that. If these were indeed authentic examples, how would I always know exactly where they came from? Authentic examples are everywhere right? No dealer or group of dealers has an exclusive on authentic Armstrong signatures, and without prior knowledge of a specific piece, I would have no way of accurately guessing where it came from.

posted 06-02-2005 05:35 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rob Joyner:
Ray, you should run for President!
Go Man, Go!

---

posted 06-02-2005 06:20 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve Zarelli:
But it gets to the point where one decides that it's not worth making PUBLIC statements in public forums any longer. I don't have the time or inclination to suffer character attacks from people who have a financial interest in keeping the product flowing.

---

Case in point, I just received a very nasty and totally unprovoked email from a dealer, and I can only presume it was the result of comments made here about certain fake styles.

posted 06-02-2005 08:44 PM               

Of course I cannot enforce what's sent via e-mail, but I am starting to hear from an increasing number of members that others are taking advantage of that off-board seclusion to strike out at those they disagree with. Cliques (if not outright mobs) are forming that have a "seek and destroy" mission. As another community leader is fond of saying and I agree 100%, "its a hobby - its supposed to be fun!"