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Author
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Topic: Backups to Apollo flags raised on the moon
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Redglare Member Posts: 18 From: Houston, Texas Registered: Nov 2010
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posted 03-11-2025 01:35 PM
Apollo 11's backup flag was displayed in mission control after their mission. Later, Apollo 17 took the Apollo 11 backup flag and placed it on the Moon. Apollo 17's backup flag is the flag current displayed in historic mission control. Did all of the Apollo lunar missions carry back up lunar flags? |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 55713 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-13-2025 07:12 PM
What is the source of the information that the flag that had hung in Mission Control was flown on Apollo 11? It is not that I have not heard that before, but in researching your query, I came across information that calls that assertion into question. In fact, the Wikipedia entry on the subject has conflicting info on the same page. First, it states: The flag which had hung in the Mission Operations Control Room (MOCR) in the Mission Control Center through the prior Apollo landings was flown to the Moon on the final mission, Apollo 17. This flag measured 20% wider and taller than the others requiring a 6-foot (1.8 m) long horizontal pole. Gene Cernan and Harrison Schmitt carried a second, identical flag to the Moon and back, and presented it to flight controller Gene Kranz after the flight, to replace the one left on the Moon. The above is sourced to the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal (1 | 2), which in turn quotes Gene Cernan: The flag that we took to deploy was the one that had hung on the wall of the Mission Control Center during all the landing missions. And we also had another flag, which we brought back to replace the one that we deployed at Taurus-Littrow. Later, on the same Wikipedia page, it states that the flag flown on Apollo 17 "traveled to the Moon and back on Apollo 11." But that claim is made without a source and is labeled "dubious."Referring to the Apollo mission press kits, regarding each flight's flag kit, only the Apollo 11 entry mentions having "two large American flags" in addition to the 4-by-6-inch smaller flags common to the other missions. There is nothing said, though, that these larger flags were prepared as was the one that was deployed on the surface. Johnson Space Center displays a large American flag that was flown on Apollo 11 outside the Teague Auditorium in Building 2. It was originally presented by the crew to Robert Gilruth, if I recall correctly. And here is a photo of Cernan and Harrison Schmitt presenting the flag they flew to replace the one they took from Mission Control to Gene Kranz in December 1973. The NASA caption for the photo makes no mention of Apollo 11, either. Two of the three Apollo 17 crewmen join in commemoration of their historical lunar landing mission of one year ago by presenting to flight controllers in Mission Control Center (MCC) the U.S. flag which flew with them to the moon. Astronauts Eugene A. Cernan, center, Apollo 17 commander, and Harrison H. Schmitt, right, lunar module pilot, are shown with Eugene F. Kranz, who accepted the flag on behalf of all the flight controllers during special ceremonies in the Mission Operations Control Room (MOCR) of MCC during the third manned Skylab mission. Kranz is chief of the Flight Control Division of the Flight Operations Directorate at JSC.  |
LM-12 Member Posts: 4272 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-13-2025 09:32 PM
Just comparing these two MOCR photos, the flag in the Apollo 11 MOCR photo looks a lot bigger than the flag in the Apollo 12 MOCR photo. Also, the flag in the Apollo 12 MOCR photo has a horizontal bar holding it up.Apollo 11 MOCR  Apollo 12 MOCR  |
LM-12 Member Posts: 4272 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-14-2025 12:36 AM
It might not be definitive proof, but it is mentioned on the NASA website. The flag that Apollo 17 left on the Moon was somewhat unique. It was a flag that went to the Moon and back on Apollo 11, hung on the wall in Mission Control until it made a return trip to the Moon, this time to stay. An identical flag made a round trip on Apollo 17 and now hangs in Mission Control. |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 55713 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-14-2025 10:55 AM
I believe these two citations puts to the question to rest: the flag did not fly on Apollo 11. First, from the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal, Harrison Schmitt's words after deploying the flag on the moon: Houston, I don't know how many of you are aware of this, but this flag has flown in the MOCR (Mission Operations Control Room at the Johnson Space Center in Houston) since Apollo 11. And we very proudly deploy it on the Moon, to stay for as long as it can, in honor of all those people who have worked so hard to put us here and to put every other crew here and to make the country, United States, and mankind, something different than it was. And from the Dec. 21, 1973 issue of Roundup, the Johnson Space Center employee newsletter: Apollo 17 Flag to Fly in MOCROn December 11, 1972, Apollo 17 touched down on Taurus-Littrow to finalize manned lunar landings. Commemorating the event, Apollo 17 commander Eugene Cernan and lunar module pilot, Jack Schmitt last Tuesday presented a U.S. flag which flew aboard the Apollo spacecraft, the "America," to mission controllers and "all the people at JSC who supported the operation." The ceremony took place in the Mission Control Center at approximately 1:54 p.m. "The real significance of this flag," Cernan stated, "is manifested in its own history, but to us, the fact that we had the opportunity to carry it, sort of represents the dedication and effort and the courage and self-sacrifice of so many of you people at the Center who made the mission possible." Schmitt added, "I think all of you remember what I said when we deployed the flag similar to this on the Moon, that was the flag that flew in the MOCR during Apollo 11 through Apollo 16 and its up there, not only representing the country, but everyone involved in Apollo through the years. This flag went to the same place, but comes back to fly in the MOCR and I hope you'll let it fly here as long as we're flying in space." Eugene Kranz, Deputy Director of Flight Operations, accepted the flag on behalf of the Center. "The flag shall always stand in the Mission Control Center," Kranz stated, "and when we look at it, we'll think that dedication to the job, self-sacrifice, attention to detail and craftsmanship are what we need to keep this country great." |
Redglare Member Posts: 18 From: Houston, Texas Registered: Nov 2010
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posted 03-14-2025 02:44 PM
This question was raised and discussed back when we were doing research for the restoration of MOCR 2 in 2017. Gene Kranz, Harrison Schmitt, and other Apollo alumni were consulted. Schmitt said his idea was to take the flag that was in Mission Control through Apollo 16 and put it on the Moon. He added it may have been the Apollo 11 backup flag, but he didn't recall that part of it. He also said they took another flag to the Moon and returned it to MOCR. Another one of the Apollo MOCR alumni members recalled Gene Cernan telling him that, "We took two flags to the moon. The flag we placed on the moon was the backup flag for Apollo 11." This is the reason I always believed the story was true. I love how a small gesture of gratitude was made by the Apollo 17 crew in mission control over 50 years ago and is still being discussed today. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 4272 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-15-2025 02:39 AM
The flag in the Apollo 11 MOCR photo looks like it might have a gold fringe. The Apollo 17 MOCR had a very similar-looking flag.(I changed "MCC" to MOCR in my posts to avoid confusion.) |
LM-12 Member Posts: 4272 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-17-2025 04:59 AM
The October 17, 1969 issue of Roundup on page 1 has a photo labelled "Well-Traveled Flag" and this caption: NASA Administrator Thomas O. Paine looks on as the only flag to be returned from the Apollo 11 Lunar Module is presented to MSC Director Gilruth by Deke Slayton, on behalf of the Apollo 11 astronauts at the Honor Awards Ceremony on October 2.  Might this be the same flag that was in the MOCR from Apollo 12 to Apollo 16, and later deployed at the Apollo 17 landing site? I'm thinking maybe yes. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 4272 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-21-2025 02:19 AM
In the Apollo 12 MOCR photo, was that a plaque on the wall next to the flag? If it was a plaque, what did it say? |
LM-12 Member Posts: 4272 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-22-2025 12:12 PM
In the MOCR restoration photos, it looks like a replica of the Apollo 11 LM plaque.  |
LM-12 Member Posts: 4272 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-24-2025 09:22 AM
This is probably the Apollo 17 flown flag seen in MOCR-1 during the ASTP mission.
An overall view of the Mission Operations Control Room in the Mission Control Center during the joint U.S.-USSR Apollo-Soyuz Test Project docking mission in Earth orbit.  |
LM-12 Member Posts: 4272 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 07-05-2025 05:41 AM
quote: Originally posted by LM-12: This is probably the Apollo 17 flown flag seen in MOCR-1 during the ASTP mission.
Now that MOCR-2 (photo below) has been restored, is the Apollo 17 flown flag in MOCR-1 or MOCR-2? |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 55713 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-05-2025 10:46 AM
The flag is in MOCR-2, now known as the Historic Apollo Mission Control Room. MOCR-1 became FCR-1 for the space shuttle program and is today the primary International Space Station control room. |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 55713 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-24-2025 05:50 PM
quote: Originally posted by LM-12: Might this be the same flag that was in the MOCR from Apollo 12 to Apollo 16, and later deployed at the Apollo 17 landing site? I'm thinking maybe yes.
No, or least not the last part... here is that same flag today on display in the lobby of the Teague Auditorium at Johnson Space Center. 
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LM-12 Member Posts: 4272 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 01-02-2026 04:08 AM
The flag in the display case has "2 x 3" printed on the white strip at top left. Most likely the flag size.This photo has no caption, but shows the Left Hand Side Stowage Compartment (LHSSC) with a FLAG stowage location above the PPK stowage location.  |
MartinAir Member Posts: 496 From: Registered: Oct 2020
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posted 01-02-2026 08:14 AM
Interesting. I assume the "2"x 3" ALL NYLON" strip was added post-flight, right? |
Axman Member Posts: 855 From: Derbyshire UK Registered: Mar 2023
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posted 01-02-2026 08:52 AM
Why would you assume that? Surely it is an ordinary Annin flag. The left-hand strip with grommets being part of it.I believe a summary is in order. Apollo 11 flew two flags to the moon, both were purchased "at the last moment" and were Annin & Co. all-nylon 2x3ft flags. - Flag A was left on the moon and fell over when Eagle's ascent engine blasted off.
- Flag B returned to Earth and was presented to Robert Gilruth and resides in a display case.
- A larger flag (C) was displayed in the Control Room throughout the Apollo 12 to 16 flights.
Apollo 17 took two flags to the moon. - Flag C was left on the moon.
- Flag D was returned to Earth and now lives in the Control Room as a replacement for flag C.
Flags A and B have absolutely nothing to do with Apollo 17. Flags C and D have absolutely nothing to do with Apollo 11. |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 55713 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 01-02-2026 10:37 AM
Your summary is slightly incorrect. - Apollo 11 deployed a 3 by 5 foot flag on the moon. Only one such flag of that size was aboard the mission.
Apollo 11 also flew a smaller 2 by 3 foot flag, which was presented post-flight to Robert Gilruth (and remains on display at Johnson Space Center today). - Apollo 12 through Apollo 16 deployed similar 3 by 5 foot flags on the moon.
During those flights, a 6-foot-wide flag was on display at the front of the Mission Operations Control Room in Mission Control, the same flag that had stood there during the Apollo 11 mission. - Apollo 17 flew the 6-foot-wide flag that hung in Mission Control and deployed it on the moon.
Apollo 17 also flew a 3 by 5 foot flag, which was returned to Earth and presented to the flight controllers to display in Mission Control. It remains in the now restored MOCR-2, the Historic Apollo Mission Control Room.
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MartinAir Member Posts: 496 From: Registered: Oct 2020
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posted 01-02-2026 10:43 AM
I thought that the nylon strip was semi-rigid and thus impractical for stowing in a relatively small beta cloth compartment. Also, I believe the lunar surface flags were modified and the strips removed. Are there any official part and serial numbers on these large flags? |
Robert Pearlman Editor Posts: 55713 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 01-02-2026 12:33 PM
Yes, the nylon strip was removed from the flags that were deployed on the moon.That said, it is not clear if the nylon strips were removed from the other large flags flown aboard the command and lunar module. I have yet to be able to find a clear image of the Gilruth flag from the time of the 1969 presentation, and then there are the two flags that two 5 by 8 foot flags that were first flown over the U.S. Capitol before flying aboard Apollo 11. As this photo shows from the U.S. Senate collection, the nylon strip is present there, too.  |