Space News
space history and artifacts articles

Messages
space history discussion forums

Sightings
worldwide astronaut appearances

Resources
selected space history documents

Websites
related space history websites

  collectSPACE: Messages
  Autographs
  Astronauts charging for photos with them (Page 2)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search


This topic is 2 pages long:   1  2 
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Astronauts charging for photos with them
benfairfax
Member

Posts: 187
From: Australia
Registered: Jan 2011

posted 06-08-2012 07:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for benfairfax   Click Here to Email benfairfax     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Whilst I think it is a bit sad from our point of view that he would not pose for the photo, you have to acknowledge that they did not want to be a celebrity. Exactly why Neil Armstrong is the way he is.

I also do take into account that he came to an autograph show to make money. What would people rather have, no Dave Scott or no photo without an autograph?

I'm really sorry for your grandchildren but I'm sure they'll remember Buzz for a long time!

Tykeanaut
Member

Posts: 1789
From: Worcestershire, England, UK.
Registered: Apr 2008

posted 06-09-2012 06:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tykeanaut   Click Here to Email Tykeanaut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by p51:
I'd say that if you cannot foresee that you'll likely have to pay for any kind of interaction with an astronaut, knowing that they often charge for everything, don't turn up.
I think you may have missed the point? This was an example where children were involved. Surely the very age group that should be enthused and encouraged?

garymilgrom
Member

Posts: 1681
From: Atlanta, GA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 06-09-2012 06:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for garymilgrom   Click Here to Email garymilgrom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fra Mauro:
Like with athletes, astronauts should be glad people still remember them.

I don't think you can answer for others, otherwise you risk being presumptuous.

I grew up with someone who became a well known movie actor. You'd probably call him a star. But he cannot go into a Home Depot or a burger joint without being mobbed. It's very unappealing to say the least.

This is someone who hasn't made a movie in 10-15 years (I don't follow his career). He has grown a beard and wears disguises to go out in public. He is not glad at all to be remembered by the public.

We should see this as an example of how lucky we are that most astronauts are approachable.

JasonB
Member

Posts: 702
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 06-09-2012 08:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonB   Click Here to Email JasonB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Whether they are happy to be remembered or not, it doesn't "entitle" you to anything from them. It doesn't matter whether children were involved or not. It was an autograph show. Not a free photos for everyone show.

Like I said before, it doesn't matter if Scott was nice to 100 people in a row. If he isn't nice to the 101st, he's a jerk. This is something all of them have to deal with everyday all day long for their entire lives. So if he or anyone else doesn't do for you exactly what you think he should do just remember — he's not your personal slave.

He didn't yell "Screw you!" and slap the kids. He just said he was there to make money — not hand out freebies to everyone. Cut the guy some slack.

schnappsicle
Member

Posts: 139
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012

posted 06-09-2012 09:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for schnappsicle   Click Here to Email schnappsicle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've been following this thread since its inception. From what I've read, I think most of us seem to agree that Scott had the right to refuse any and all requests, photos included. I don't believe anyone has a problem with that.

The problem I see here is the way Scott handled the situation. A bad choice of words, if you will. There seems to be a universal feeling among the posters that he could have handled it far better than he did.

He wasn't his usual charming self with me either, but that didn't take anything away from the great time I had at the show. What it did was show me he is human, which apparently is a flaw no person has a right to have.

p51
Member

Posts: 932
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 06-09-2012 09:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tykeanaut:
Surely the very age group that should be enthused and encouraged?
Oh, I got the point all right and I'm pretty sure you missed my point that it doesn't matter if it's a kid or not. If you charge for signatures, photos, whatever, why does having a kid with you make any kind of difference?

People have used kids to get autographs so they can turn them around for sale all the time, I've watched it happen before. You know astronauts know this, so why should their rules be any different based on age?

It's oh so easy for people to think that an astronaut should be a certain way, but as it's been well pointed out here already, they've earned the right to be as aggravating as they want. Considering some never show up for public things, would you rather pay for that photo with your kid, or would you rather wish that said person would show up in public someday so you could get the change to pay to interact with him?

If this was Armstrong we're talking about, would anyone think it was such a horrible thing he charged for a photo? No, I think most would consider the person who get the photo or signature darned lucky, price be darned!

DChudwin
Member

Posts: 1017
From: Lincolnshire IL USA
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 06-09-2012 01:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DChudwin   Click Here to Email DChudwin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I do not think an unsigned photo of an astronaut with a child has any commercial value, so the argument about people using kids to get autographs in the past does not apply to this situation.

While Scott had no obligation at all to pose for pictures with the kids, it would have been a nice thing to do. Again, I have never had any problems with Scott and when I started writing astronauts as a teenager he was one of the few to send an inscribed litho and not an autopen.

p51
Member

Posts: 932
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 06-09-2012 01:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DChudwin:
I do not think an unsigned photo of an astronaut with a child has any commercial value, so the argument about people using kids to get autographs in the past does not apply to this situation.
No, actually, it very much applies. People know that kids are used to get stuff for adults all the time. People in the public eye KNOW this, so therefore often using the "but it's for my kid" argument often automatically falls on deaf ears because of the reason above.

It's not apples and oranges, it's cause and effect. I know a few people in the public eye and it's amazing to get their perspective on things, you get really jaded really quick. "But it's for my son/daughter" doesn't mean much after than ten thousandth time you've heard it, regardless what it is the adult is asking for...

mjanovec
Member

Posts: 3622
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 06-09-2012 03:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DChudwin:
I do not think an unsigned photo of an astronaut with a child has any commercial value, so the argument about people using kids to get autographs in the past does not apply to this situation.

Exactly. The photo would have no commercial value, just sentimental value.

Look at it this way. How would one feel if they ask to shake an astronaut's hand and are told "no hand shakes without an autograph purchase."

As stated previously, the astronauts reserve the right to refuse photos if they wish. But these events do contain a certain degree of public relations to them. Better PR often results in better profits.

For example, Alan Bean's autograph price doubled in recent years to $150, yet he still has the longest line at these events. Why? Because he's one of the friendliest astronauts you could hope to meet...taking time to talk with each person and posing for photos. Bean is living proof that being friendly at these events is great for business.

englau
Member

Posts: 110
From: tampa, florida, usa
Registered: Mar 2012

posted 06-09-2012 03:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for englau   Click Here to Email englau     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Technically, the person who deprived the two kids of a photo was not Scott — it was the person unwilling to pay for the photo. Or rather the autograph in which the photo is included.

mjanovec
Member

Posts: 3622
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 06-09-2012 03:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by p51:
No, actually, it very much applies. People know that kids are used to get stuff for adults all the time. People in the public eye KNOW this, so therefore often using the "but it's for my kid" argument often automatically falls on deaf ears because of the reason above.
It's obviously "for the kids" when you ask if the kids can have their photo taken with the astronaut. There was no deception involved.

The OP didn't ask for a free autograph or any other favors on behalf of his grandchildren.

Robert Pearlman
Editor

Posts: 28757
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 06-09-2012 03:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
The photo would have no commercial value, just sentimental value.
The same could be said for autographs, at one time.

Autographs and photographs are both personal mementos. Neither have an intrinsic value. It is only that collectors have decided to treat autographs as a commodity.

Who is to say that in the future, collectors won't also start treating photographs similarly? Other areas of historical collecting already pay for personal photos with famous people — vintage photographs of people posing with presidents and Wild West outlaws are bought and sold. Why not astronauts?

(Of course, the farther back in history you go, the rarer any photo becomes. But that alone does not rule out a future market for photos — even digital ones.)

fredtrav
Member

Posts: 1034
From: Birmingham AL USA
Registered: Aug 2010

posted 06-09-2012 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fredtrav   Click Here to Email fredtrav     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I suppose it is possible that sometime in the future the photo with the kids might have some value, but I doubt it. Photos with wild west outlaws and late 19th century and early 20th century presidents were much less common and harder to take than what can be done now so there were far fewer of them.

It is possible that pictures with the astronauts right after they returned from a mission might have some value (other than sentimental) but as older gentleman posing with kids I doubt that any one will see much value in them.

AJ
Member

Posts: 511
From: Plattsburgh, NY, United States
Registered: Feb 2009

posted 06-09-2012 04:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AJ   Click Here to Email AJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Like a few others, I have watched this thread with interest before posting. Before Spacefest in San Diego, I had heard a few stories about Dave Scott being hard to deal with, unapproachable, etc. Yet when I met the man himself and had my photo taken with him, he was nothing but courteous and friendly. Maybe he was having a bad day. Maybe he was tired.

I'm not trying to be rude to scrpien in any way, but I can't help but wonder if perhaps the conversation about the photo could have been misconstrued? It seems that Scott was clear that he wouldn't do a photo without an autograph. Fine, that's his prerogative. Is it possible, perhaps, that his comment about the Scott house was an attempt at humor, to lighten what might be an awkward moment?

Sometimes people don't have the same sense of humor and it's easy to take things the wrong way. Like I said, I'm not trying to malign scrpien's experience, I'm just wondering if there could have been any misunderstanding.

mjanovec
Member

Posts: 3622
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 06-10-2012 01:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Other areas of historical collecting already pay for personal photos with famous people — vintage photographs of people posing with presidents and Wild West outlaws are bought and sold. Why not astronauts?

I can see vintage photos of the astronauts at work (in training or during missions) having both historic and monetary value.

But modern images of the retired astronauts attending an autograph show are neither rare or terribly unique...and have almost no historic value. Therefore, I won't hold my breath waiting for them to become marketable commodities.

Spacefest
Member

Posts: 1092
From: Tucson, AZ USA
Registered: Jan 2009

posted 06-10-2012 06:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacefest   Click Here to Email Spacefest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll just say that Dave Scott is kind of an odd duck, and a pile of contradictions. He is susceptible to the mood of the day. Most often he is gracious and outgoing, but if you phrase a question or statement wrong, watch out. But he's just one.

He was great at the first Spacefest, maybe because he did well. He greeted everyone cordially, especially kids.

We only pay for astronaut travel, lodging, banquet, and some meals, normally. Some speakers won't even consider coming (for a hour) without a handsome honorarium, or five-figure fee.

These men are mostly 80 or more. Consider yourselves lucky.

NC Apollo Fan
Member

Posts: 261
From: Belmont, NC USA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 06-10-2012 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NC Apollo Fan   Click Here to Email NC Apollo Fan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Back in 2007 our family flew from North Carolina to Arizona to attend Spacefest. I had met all of the moonwalkers before, and over the years I have happily spent thousands of dollars obtaining their autographs. I simply wanted my daughters (ages 7 and 9 at the time) to have the opportunity to meet some of these men and to hopefully have a photo taken with them. I was aware of the lines behind me, kept our time to a minimum, and respectfully asked each astro if meeting my daughters was something that they were willing to do. It was a wonderful experience. The moonwalkers there (Bean, Duke, Aldrin, Mitchell and Cernan) could not have been more excited and accomodating. They made my daughters feel very special and took time to speak with them, and they also happily posed for photographs. More than a few people have remarked that they looked like proud grandparents posing with their grandchildren in the photos.

Fortunately we were able to do some sightseeing while we were in Arizona and made it into a family vacation. This past April we returned to Arizona with our daughters, and I was surprised when neither of them remembered visiting the Grand Canyon. We started taking about the trip in 2007 and do you know what they did remember? They both remembered how Alan Bean got down on one knee to take a photograph with them, and our oldest daughter remembered how Gene Cernan talked about driving the 'moon buggy' on his mission. It made a big impact on them, and I am thankful for time that all of those men gave to my daughters.

More recently one of them had to do a report on an astronaut. She chose Charlie Duke, and front and center on her poster was a photo of her and her sister with him at Spacefest. The other kids asked her all sorts of questions about meeting him, and there was a lot of excitement about what our space program has done. And will do.

My sincere thanks to the astronauts out there who recognize the wonder and potential in children, and who are willing to spend a moment with them when they are present.

schnappsicle
Member

Posts: 139
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012

posted 06-11-2012 06:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for schnappsicle   Click Here to Email schnappsicle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The discussion about Armstrong brings up a lot of things in my mind. Does he (or any of the astronauts) owe us anything (autographs, photos, etc.)? Buried somewhere deep below the obvious "No" answer is an absolute "Yes". After all, we're the ones who paid for their trip into space. We're the ones who give them the glory and attention they earned by risking their lives by putting themselves on top of a rocket. Many people in this forum compare astronauts to rock stars, actors, or professional athletes. They obviously face similar problems when in public, but there are also very real differences. Rock stars, actors, and athletes do not do their job with public funds. We chose to support our favorite band or movie star by paying money to see them in concert or buy their CD's or go to their movies.

Today, we are lucky enough to have many of the astronauts who took our free ride show up at shows like Spacefest and offer their signatures for sale. That is how we choose to thank and support our heros. I'm sure if someone like Armstrong were to show up at a show and actually sign, the line of people waiting for his autograph would stretch halfway across the country. Some things are impractical. What I would like as a compromise is for him to sign a limited number of autographs through something like the Astronaut Scholarship Foundation, or some other charitable organization. They could raffle off the photos. I for one would be more than willing to pay $100 for a chance to win an autographed photo from him. I'm sure it'll never happen, but I can still dream. After all, dreaming is how we got to the moon in the first place.

JasonIUP
Member

Posts: 171
From: PA
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 06-11-2012 08:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonIUP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An Armstrong line half-way across the country?

As for wanting to pay for an Armstrong signed photo (not provided by the buyer), getting one from an auction is still a viable route.

MrSpace86
Member

Posts: 1398
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 06-11-2012 09:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrSpace86   Click Here to Email MrSpace86     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't consider myself lucky by any stretch of the imagination that these guys appear and sign. They are human beings in the end and there is no need to overworship them or overpraise them. You see this a lot with sports figures and such and people tend to forget that at the end of the day, astronauts, celebrities, sports figures, etc, are human beings. They make appearances and sign autographs even when they are old and busted? Good for them. Good for the collectors. Certainly makes me happy but I won't sit here in awe and get on my knees to thank them.

Regarding the Scott situation, I have slowly shifted my reasoning. A few years ago, I would be flaming him. But now, the best thing I can do is put myself in his shoes. What would I do if someone approached me for a photo? What would I charge? Is it possible for me to keep the 'free policy' after I have literally thousands of people wanting a piece of me? It's easy to say yes to all of that, but until you are in that situation, it's best to not judge.

AJ
Member

Posts: 511
From: Plattsburgh, NY, United States
Registered: Feb 2009

posted 06-11-2012 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AJ   Click Here to Email AJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrSpace86:
I don't consider myself lucky by any stretch of the imagination that these guys appear and sign.
Are you okay? You seem a bit mad. I agree with you in the idea that they are human. They have done amazing things, but they are by no means perfect or demi-gods. So no worship required. And I certainly don't think anyone meant that you ought to grovel in thanks.

In regards to that, perhaps "lucky" could be replaced with "fortunate". As collectors, admirers, and enthusiasts, we are indeed fortunate that we have opportunities not just for autographs, but simply to be able to meet these people. Someday they will be gone. I for one don't focus so much on autographs right now but I love meeting astronauts. It's a great experience you can tell stories about for years.

HistorianMom
Member

Posts: 96
From: Columbia, Missouri USA
Registered: Nov 2010

posted 06-11-2012 11:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for HistorianMom   Click Here to Email HistorianMom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by schnappsicle:
Buried somewhere deep below the obvious "No" answer is an absolute "Yes".
I am going to disagree here. These guys are all retired. The fact is, when we're talking Apollo-era and before, these guys have spent 40 to 50 years in the public eye after their flights were over. They did their post-flight goodwill tours, they've done astronaut appearances for years.

They're entitled to retire, just like anyone else. They are not obligated to sign autographs or get in photos with people who see them in grocery stores, lines at the post office, etc. They should do a polite, "thanks, but I am not comfortable with that," to anyone who interrupts their private time.

I do, however, think something like Spacefest is a different matter. That weekend, those who elect to come are sort of volunteering to be "in the barrel" again, and are getting handsome fees for those autographs.

Photo ops are not included specifically, yet I think a lot of people, particularly locals, who come and pay the nominal fee to get into the autograph/art show area ARE expecting to get photos. If it is going to be fee only, or if some astronauts are going to charge for photos, or not allow them except with an autograph, I think the public needs to know that.

If it were not the general expectation at Spacefest that the astronauts in the autograph room would allow photo ops, I do not think many people would pay $35 to get in unless they were coming to meet one/get something signed by one or two astronauts in particular.

mjanovec
Member

Posts: 3622
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005

posted 06-11-2012 01:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mjanovec   Click Here to Email mjanovec     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by schnappsicle:
After all, we're the ones who paid for their trip into space. We're the ones who give them the glory and attention they earned by risking their lives by putting themselves on top of a rocket.

Which is it...did they have the glory given to them or did they earn it? You can't have it both ways. If they earned it, then there is no obligation for them to repay anything.

Let's count the ways they earned it:

  • Risking their lives for their country's space program. There's a wall in Florida that lists many who paid the ultimate price.
  • Countless hours of training, away from their homes and families...often missing out on seeing their children grow up.
  • Hard work and long hours developing their careers prior to becoming an astronaut, which often included combat assignments in defense of their country.
  • Successfully meeting Kennedy's goal to put man on the moon and inspiring the nation (if not the entire world)
  • Public relations work carried out while on duty as active astronauts.

Nowhere was there any obligation (written or implied) for them to carry out public relations for the remainder of their lives, after they retired from the space program. Granted, many astronauts (Armstrong included) chose to give our free autographs for years (or decades) after retiring. They did that out of their own generosity, not an obligation. Most stopped when they saw their generosity being abused.

So really, any photo or autograph from a retired astronaut (given freely) is a gift. While I don't agree with Dave Scott's decision with regards to not taking a photo with those two young children, I respect his right to refuse if he so chooses.

HistorianMom
Member

Posts: 96
From: Columbia, Missouri USA
Registered: Nov 2010

posted 06-11-2012 04:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for HistorianMom   Click Here to Email HistorianMom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
But modern images of the retired astronauts attending an autograph show are neither rare or terribly unique... and have almost no historic value.
I can see one circumstance when the photograph might appreciate in value... if the kid in the picture grows up to be somebody famous. Maybe the first person to walk on Mars or something. Then having a picture of the first person to walk on Mars with the one of the first people to walk on the moon might be valuable.

Otherwise... nah... there are a gazillion photos out there of astronauts at public events. And with digital media, they can be reproduced endlessly.

Spacefest
Member

Posts: 1092
From: Tucson, AZ USA
Registered: Jan 2009

posted 06-11-2012 06:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spacefest   Click Here to Email Spacefest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unless you're really old, you didn't pay much in taxes to send these guys up.

The difference between actors, athletes, etc. and astronauts is that astronauts weren't in this for fame, and don't need a fan base to survive.

p51
Member

Posts: 932
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 06-11-2012 07:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I look at it this way, if you go to an airshow and find someone who was awarded a Model of Honor from wartime now charging for signatures/items/photos/fistbumps/whatever, would you go up and say, "My tax dollars sent you to go fight where you were awarded that medal, you OWE me whatever you're charging for..." people would probably think you're a moron, right?

Sorry, but that admittedly ridiculous scenario makes as much sense as some of the other theories written here so far.

In the end, they CAN charge what they want for whatever they want, and that's really all there is to say. Haven't we all wasted too much bandwidth on a subject we have zero influence over?

englau
Member

Posts: 110
From: tampa, florida, usa
Registered: Mar 2012

posted 06-11-2012 10:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for englau   Click Here to Email englau     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Astronauts certainly do not "owe" us anything. They deserve our respect for the courage, diligence and innovation they showed throughout their career. Not to mention risking their lives. To say we are owed something from them (especially autographs which - some- are worth hundreds of dollars, is just arrogant and self-important at the least. Would you expect the same "debt paid off to you" to other people who work for the government? Veterans? Police officers? Soldiers? Of course not. It's an odd thought to even harbor. These men are women don't owe us anything and we need to understand that and appreciate what is given to us by the many astronauts who continue to make themselves avaiable to the public.

schnappsicle
Member

Posts: 139
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012

posted 06-12-2012 06:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for schnappsicle   Click Here to Email schnappsicle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Spacefest:
Consider yourselves lucky.
I do consider myself very lucky. I've wanted autographed photos of these men since Ed White opened the hatch and floated across America. I was lucky enough to get a few freebies signed by the later Apollo crews back the early 70's.

It's taken almost 50 years, but thanks to the generosity of the pioneer astronauts and my employer, I can now buy the photos I once only dreamt about. Best of all, because of shows like Spacefest, I can get them signed where I want, and for the most part, how I want. What could be better?

schnappsicle
Member

Posts: 139
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012

posted 06-12-2012 06:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for schnappsicle   Click Here to Email schnappsicle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
Which is it... did they have the glory given to them or did they earn it? You can't have it both ways. If they earned it, then there is no obligation for them to repay anything.
The answer is both. They cannot receive glory (or fame or whatever you want to call it) without someone like you and me giving it to them. If someone does something and no one notices, they gained nothing beyond a little self-satisfaction. But, if people notice and pay attention and get emotionally involved in their accomplishment, then, and only then, do they receive any level of fame or glory, whether sought or not.

schnappsicle
Member

Posts: 139
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012

posted 06-12-2012 06:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for schnappsicle   Click Here to Email schnappsicle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Spacefest:
Unless you're really old, you didn't pay much in taxes to send these guys up.
The number I've heard since I saw my first televised Gemini launch on June 3, 1965 is one cent out of every dollar in taxes goes to the manned space program. That number appears small until you consider that it cost about $450,000,000 to launch each Saturn V mission. No matter our age, we all paid. I paid because the money it cost my dad to pay his share of the NASA budget could have bought me a new bicycle or new clothes for school every year. Granted, nothing was taken directly out of my pocket, but it did cost me and every other American citizen.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not complaining in the least. I just want to clarify my earlier comment. We all paid for the rides these guys took and to that extent they do owe us, but I believe their debt was paid in full by the time they retired from NASA.

I totally agree that astronauts were not in it for fame. The ones who sought attention were weeded out very early in the selection process.

schnappsicle
Member

Posts: 139
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012

posted 06-12-2012 06:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for schnappsicle   Click Here to Email schnappsicle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There's a huge difference between a taking a photo with a couple of kids and signing one that has the strong likehood for future resale. If Scott had wanted to charge $30 or $40 for a photo in someone's family album, that's great. All we ask is that he post a sign saying such, not charge the full $200 just to take a picture that has no value outside the family.

Space Geek FL
Member

Posts: 20
From: Inverness, FL, USA
Registered: Oct 2011

posted 06-12-2012 09:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Space Geek FL     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've been watching this thread and I wanted to put my 2 cents in as well. I have spent years working for sci fi and horror conventions throughout the southeast, as well as attending astronaut events and I have watched the culture of these celeb appearances change. At the entertainment events it used to be $20 for a signature and a photo, while that still holds true for some, the more well known celebs will only take a paid professional photo with you which can be upwards of $100.

The astronauts I have met have always been wonderful about talking to folks and taking pictures. It should be mentioned that the general population does not have the means to pay hundreds of dollars for an autograph from their hero so in some cases the photo with them maybe all they ever get. It is not unreasonable to charge a small fee for a photo if your not getting an autograph but I think inspiring kids should be a consideration as well.

I will say Dave Scott also refused a photo with my Granddaughter but she forgot all about it when Buzz told her she touched the moon and Dick Gordon picked her up and danced with her. Those are the priceless ones for our family.

I believe each has the right to decide for themselves but maybe they should consider those who just want the memory.

Fra Mauro
Member

Posts: 1075
From: Maspeth, NY
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 06-12-2012 10:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fra Mauro   Click Here to Email Fra Mauro     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This topic has certainly pushed people's buttons! Every astronaut is entitled to every bit of privacy they want, and they don't have to sign or pose with anyone. I think because this Scott incident was with a child, it became different than if it was with one of us.

disglobes
Member

Posts: 565
From: Fort McCoy, WI USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 06-12-2012 10:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for disglobes   Click Here to Email disglobes     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I really think it depends on the day. Dave Scott has always been gracious to me. I have met Buzz more than ten times and he has been great all but one of those times where he actually yelled at my friends kid and made him cry. So once again, I think it depends on the day and what kind of mood they are in.

p51
Member

Posts: 932
From: Olympia, WA, USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted 06-12-2012 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for p51   Click Here to Email p51     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by schnappsicle:
There's a huge difference between a taking a photo with a couple of kids and signing one that has the strong likelihood for future resale.
NO, there's really not. If this thread must continue, we really need to understand that for the astronaut, it doesn't matter who he's signing or posing for in regard to the time or effort it takes to do so. The purpose for the end result of that interaction is totally irrelevant. Only a parent would think otherwise because they can't see past the whole, "but it's for a kid" argument.

I for one am sick to death of the "but it's for a kid" excuse to justify anything the parent wants. I see it at airshows all the time, parents often become children themselves because they want exceptions for their kids. A good example can be found among people who display airplanes or military vehicles at airshows, all of the owners of which can testify that they often get people demanding exceptions, parents can downright scary when they decide that junior MUST have a photo of himself sitting in the cockpit of a fighter plane (oddly, most of the time, you never hear the kid actually ask). Sorry, you say that you don't let people sit there? You monster! It's for a kid! How could you not make an exception? You charge for a photo or a signature? But it's for a kid!

I don't think that it being a kid is an issue, nor should it ever be. People can decide how they interact with other and under what conditions. I'm glad to live in the country where astronauts can make that call.

For those who would cry, "But it's for a kid," please look at the recent buzz over the "You're not special" speech recently given at a graduation ceremony. Just because your kid is the center of your world, that doesn't make them the center of anyone else's world. Get over it and move on!

HistorianMom
Member

Posts: 96
From: Columbia, Missouri USA
Registered: Nov 2010

posted 06-12-2012 01:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for HistorianMom   Click Here to Email HistorianMom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For me, it's not an issue over "it's for the kid," it's the issue that there were what, more than a dozen astronauts in that room, and only one of them refused a photo without an autograph purchase? If an astronaut wants to go against the general culture of a show and do something no one else is doing, what is the problem with at least posting a sign so that people know not to bother you and so there's no embarrassment or awkwardness on either side? As I said, I have been to all kinds of events with astronauts, from the "I'll sign anything for free" kind of event (usually only John Glenn and shuttle folk) to "no autographs/no photos" of any kind, to "Dr Schmitt poses for photos happily and will personalize and sign one copy of a book he authored for each attendee, but nothing else." As long as the rules/expectations are laid out in advance, people are usually happy to comply with them.

Nobody seems to have been asking for anything "special." Nobody's climbing into the cockpit of a show plane, or asking for a free signature when prices are posted, or anything else. I have to say when I attended Spacefest I was pretty impressed -- I am a morning person and was down in Starbucks every morning about 6 am, and I'd sit there and drink coffee and read the paper and check my e-mail and stuff, and when the astronauts were in line, or sitting with their wives drinking coffee, I saw no violations of privacy, no photo requests, no covert photography or any of that sort of thing. Just a smile and nod, and that was that. I was impressed. I think the astronauts in question were grateful.

OK, I did see the Lovells checking out, and somebody obviously not connected to the convention turn to his companion and excitedly tell her, "I think that's Jim Lovell! The Astronaut! From Apollo 13!" and the woman turn to him with a kind of bored look and say, "Oh. I never saw that movie."

Space Geek FL
Member

Posts: 20
From: Inverness, FL, USA
Registered: Oct 2011

posted 06-12-2012 02:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Space Geek FL     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow, I don't post often and never twice but the "get over it and move on" comment was a bit over the top in my opinion. We, like the astronauts have a right to voice our approval and disapproval over a subject or a person.

As stated earlier as someone who frequently works with actors on the scale of Patrick Stewart and Vivica A. Fox I see first hand how they treat their fans in a controlled setting such as an autograph show. More directly, taking a photo with a kid, who may or may not be the center of someone's universe, is not on the same scale as a safety issue due to sitting in an airplane.

These heroes are under no obligation to attend however once there, I feel given the situation, they should be open and welcoming to everyone.

schnappsicle
Member

Posts: 139
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Jan 2012

posted 06-12-2012 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for schnappsicle   Click Here to Email schnappsicle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by p51:
I'd say that if you cannot foresee that you'll likely have to pay for any kind of interaction with an astronaut, knowing that they often charge for everything, don't turn up.
First of all, they don't charge for everything. They charge for their autograph, and rightfully so. Other than a handful of exceptions already stated in this thread, no astronaut has ever charged for posing for photos during these type of events, especially when someone pays for an autograph. I realize scrpien did not purchase an autograph, but perhaps he was spoiled by the many astronauts who gave of themselves freely enough to pose for a quick photo and offer a friendly word of encouragement. Yes, he was a victim of his own expectations, but those expectations were based on enough experience to make him think that his request was not unreasonable.

People have written here claiming that these photos have market value. I totally disagree. The only photo of a celebrity with a fan that I know of that has had any market value at all is the photo of John Lennon signing an album cover for Mark Chapman. The only reason that photo has value is because of the horror that happened a few hours later. Every other photo of a fan taken with a celebrity has had value only to the person standing next to the celebrity or their immediate family members. That value is strictly sentimental, not monetary. Not me, or anyone I know, would pay anything for such a photo, unless perhaps it's autographed. The purpose of such a photo is simply icing on the cake. It's advertising for friends and family. It gives common folks like me the chance to say, "Look who I met." Nothing more, nothing less.

Those of you who remember Carl Lewis might know that he had his picture taken with Jessie Owens when he was a small boy. That meeting and the photo his father took of the two of them inspired Carl to be like his hero. I don't want to use kids as an excuse, but for a young child to be photographed with someone who's been to the moon could very well launch that child a little further in life, just as it did for Carl Lewis. I know it worked for my daughter too.

Did Scott have the right to refuse? We all agree he did. He was simply exercising his right. I believe those of us who are criticizing him are doing so based solely on his poor choice of words and lack of tact.

propliner1
New Member

Posts:
From:
Registered:

posted 06-12-2012 08:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for propliner1   Click Here to Email propliner1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I started collecting astronaut autographs very late, in 2010. I have been involved in the audio recording of aircraft since 1972, with emphasis on heavy piston, turboprop, and early jets. Also model building.

I regret not starting the collecting of astronaut autographs decades earlier — "they will always be around." This idea of everything being a fee paid thing is something else.

I have been working since 1979 and still in 2012 cannot afford to travel to these shows, much less pay the current fees asked. If you live in the mid-west, appearances are extremely rare and frequently with little notice. Yet eBay has become the only source for the majority of my collection — through the mail has been the other.

I spent my birthday in 1982 flying on a DC-3 to four cities on a freight run courtesy of the owner price requested $0.00 — I flew aboard a B25 twice in 1975 in an airshow and in 1977 on a radio alignment flight price requested $0.00. They are priceless to me.

I treasure the recordings and photos from those flights and would rather share with enthusiasts, not run to eBay to make a quick buck. Just my 3 1/2 cents.

MrSpace86
Member

Posts: 1398
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 06-16-2012 09:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrSpace86   Click Here to Email MrSpace86     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This thread seems to go weird places. In the end, this isn't about charging for autographs, it's about charging for a photo or refusing to pose for a photo for free.

I also cringe when parents use their kids as weapons to get what they want. I am sure the three, four, five year old little girl has no idea who Buzz Aldrin (or Dave Scott) is and has no idea who the guy in the white suit is surrounded by grey dirt.

I don't have any kids so I may not know what it would be like to do whatever takes to satisfy your own child. However, my parents never tried to get me to like what they like. They let me do my own thing and like whatever I wanted. Times have changed though and I still feel a little weird paying for autographs sometimes.

For the record, I would NEVER pay to have my picture taken with someone.


This topic is 2 pages long:   1  2 

All times are CT (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | The Source for Space History & Artifacts

Copyright 1999-2014 collectSPACE.com All rights reserved.


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47a





advertisement