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  Printed Armstrong signature on stamp block (Page 2)

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Author Topic:   Printed Armstrong signature on stamp block
Scott
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Posts: 3295
From: Houston, TX
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posted 04-08-2007 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I do share your view in many respects, Mike. I also believe that sunlight is the best disinfectant.

When this kind of fraud is seen happening, and has been soundly determined to be fraud, over and over, it is best IMO to sound the alarm and let people know. And if the person doing it is well-determined, to make an example of that person. For the most part it is up to us in the hobby to protect each other - law enforcement will seldom do it for us.

Novaspace
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Posts: 434
From: Tucson, AZ USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 04-08-2007 04:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Novaspace     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To answer the question about the Beatles forgery on the "white" album:

Many large-format inkjet and giclee printers have a sheet-fed capability. You can put very thick paper (even wood) through some. The good news is that you can't fit a baseball through.

reznikoff
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posted 04-08-2007 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for reznikoff   Click Here to Email reznikoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike and Scott, I think you guys are right that the existance of these forgeries should be confronted front and center. I fantasize about a wanted poster photoing the present Armstrong, posted on every post office and autograph show wall. I guess through my miscommunication and fear I did not make clear what I am talking about. Being involved in many aspects of the collecting world I can state with confidence that the group on collectspace is a highly educated and savvy crew. The forger may not be so savvy and some details that Scott and I know about him, seem to confirm this. What I think we may want to stay away from, at least on a "need to know" basis is some of the technical aspects of how the forgery can be detected and how it was produced. I stress the "some" here and again I may be wrong but this is my gut for now. Afterall, detection of this type of forgery maybe most effectivly accomplished just by seeking out "matches".This is how autopens are detected ...difference here is that autopens are generally used to save time by the one from whom it came, and the present imitation is a crime to defraud collectors. Kim, contrary to what you say, baseballs can be the subject of this type of forgery. I have seen it done. I suspect the balls have the threads removed, the leather is laid flat, the deed is done then the ball is put back together. I only discuss this (in light detail) to let everyone know that anything is possible.

If anyone has any good candidates for My VSC you can email me the details and I would be happy to conduct a test gratis, time permitting and considering the merits of the patient.

Scott
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From: Houston, TX
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posted 04-09-2007 10:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I recalled this morning a fraudulently printed Armstrong signature that was discussed on collectSPACE years ago. Does anyone else remember the bad Armstrong forgery that appeared to have been done in pencil and that someone was re-printing here and there (I recall one example being in a book). The amusing thing was that it was a bad forgery, but whoever was printing it apparently did not realize that. At first it was dismissed as a regular forgery, but then matches were found. There was a good discussion about it here on cS, but I could not find the thread just now when searching.

Scott
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From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001

posted 04-09-2007 10:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by albatron:
Sadly this isn't "new" news. Some time back we found a guy who was doing this with X-15 flight covers and Neil's signature. He lived in Florida as I recall but we couldn't prove he was the one actually doing it.
Hi Al, I looked on Yahoo Astronauts and I believe the thread to which you refer is this one (Note: Registration is required to view).

(This is just one post from that thread but the other posts can be found near the above one.)

From what is discussed in that thread, these X-15 covers apparently were being advertised on eBay as autopenned, not hand-signed (though granted they were not even autopens). The user ID selling them at the time can be found in the thread.

albatron
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From: Stuart, Florida, USA
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 04-09-2007 05:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for albatron   Click Here to Email albatron     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scott:
From what is discussed in that thread, these X-15 covers apparently were being advertised on eBay as autopenned, not hand-signed (though granted they were not even autopens). The user ID selling them at the time can be found in the thread.
Thanks for (having and) taking the time to look it up Scott.

You are correct in that some were being sold as AP's however, this was after he was contacted and tried to offer them as authentic originally. It wasn't until later when we got one, that we realized the printing aspect.

Not as significant as your find, certainly simply adding to it.

Bob McLeod kept a copy of the scan and can offer it if anyone is interested.

Seeing it again reminded me it was a pretty good forgery.

Scott
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From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001

posted 06-01-2007 12:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
UPDATE: Thank you for the information which has been received regarding the ownership of the fraudulently printed "signed" stamp block and the template insurance cover.

Both of these items have been traced to a single (the same) owner.

I won't mention the person's name at this time, but it is a fairly well-known and active collector and seller. FWIW, they did not come forward on their own, and when I contacted them I was given conflicting information (they initially claimed to have obtained the stamp block at a "stamp exhibition"; later they claimed to not remember where they obtained it; now they recall they may have obtained it at a stamp exhibition, but say they do not know the name of the seller and cannot obtain that information).

Bob M
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posted 06-02-2007 01:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob M   Click Here to Email Bob M     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very interesting. That is suspicious that the same person is the owner of both the printed Armstrong signature stamp block and the actual autographed item it was copied from (Apollo 11 autographed Insurance cover). The person in question should freely provide accurate and more complete information so it can be determined that he was not involved in any devious and dishonest activity.

Scott
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From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001

posted 06-05-2007 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sadly, I must report that despite numerous attempts, I have been unable to get any cooperation from the stamp block owner in tracing any provenance it may have. Additionally, they have referred to their suspect dual ownership of the items as a "coincidence".

If anyone would like more information, please feel free to contact me at my email address in the link above.

fabfivefreddy
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Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 06-05-2007 02:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fabfivefreddy   Click Here to Email fabfivefreddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for discovering this problem and highly suspicious activity.

GerryM
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posted 06-05-2007 07:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GerryM   Click Here to Email GerryM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scott:
Sadly, I must report that despite numerous attempts, I have been unable to get any cooperation from the stamp block owner in tracing any provenance it may have. Additionally, they have referred to their suspect dual ownership of the items as a "coincidence".
A major props to you for all your hard work on this project. All collectors should be indebted to you for your fight to keep this hobby clean.

Second, did you really expect the person you suspected of this terrible deed to be forthcoming? The person your dealing with is slick with a capital "S".

I have to laugh, getting a email from you is like having Mike Wallace of "60 Minutes" banging on your door!

Keep up the fight... I cant wait to see who is exposed!

Scott
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Posts: 3295
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001

posted 06-05-2007 08:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott   Click Here to Email Scott     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Bob, Tahir and Gerry.

spaceflori
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From: Germany
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posted 06-09-2007 04:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spaceflori   Click Here to Email spaceflori     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scott:
Florian or Markus, do you know what kind of printer may have been used for the fraudulently printed signature discovered by Markus on the White Album?

Sorry for the late reply... no, I don't know any details - maybe you check with Markus Brandes as he was the one that investigated that case.


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