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Author
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Topic: Does this change what an autopen is? (LongPen By Unotchit)
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Lunar rock nut
Member Posts: 681
From: Oklahoma city, Oklahoma U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 08-24-2007 11:14 AM
   
quote:
Originally posted by Scott:
Just my opinion, but I think it would be neither - it would be a new category.
I stated in my first post back up the list about earning it's own placement as a type two tier autograph between Hand signed and autopenned. If signed one at a time witnessed by the signer and an individual. Put forth in a format of preponderance of evidence being Hand signed in real time and not being mass reproduced in this manner would it not be tipping the balance toward Hand signed rather than autopen reproduced? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 28757
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-24-2007 11:18 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gajs:
The hope is that it will allow retailers to sell more product.
How? It takes the same amount of time for the author to sign books whether they are in the store or using the LongPen. There may be a cost savings over time, with regards to not having to pay for travel, but (a) most booksellers do not pay for travel (the publisher does), and (b) there is still the upfront cost of the machine (not to mention the connection costs for the two way video). On the other hand, the LongPen might take more time than a straightforward signing, because the two-way video encourages interaction between the author and his/her admirer. Whereas in a store setting, it's not uncommon for the interaction to be limited to a quick hello and a handshake (if that much). |
gajs
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posted 08-24-2007 11:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
How? It takes the same amount of time for the author to sign books whether they are in the store or using the LongPen.
Because the author can be in NYC, and faux *sign* books in Baltimore at 10AM, Philly at 11AM, Chicago at noon, Dallas at 2PM, and LA at 4PM w/o having to get their butt out of bed in NYC and w/o the high cost of multiple biz class tickets, hotels, food, entourage, etc in tow. Just long-pen machines that will be in place at every B&N, Borders, and book store chain -- nation wide. Can't you just see it? Brittany Spears, Michael Jackson, Bobby Bonds, and every other superstar wannabe appeasing their fans in this manner. --- And if you don't think these signature patterns will be electronically saved and 'reused' by some entrepreneur to enhance his stock of *signed* books, -- then there is a bridge out there 'for sale' for you too. Two things will happen. Signed items will become a plethora, and **the unique, authentically autographed book** a 'real' rarity. --Much like fresh drinking water, and gasoline, in the year 2100! My last post on this topic. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 615
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 08-24-2007 12:05 PM
It will sell more product because the authors can sign many more items simply because (s)he can do it from the comfort of his own home or office, rather than embarking on a multi-stop, weeks-long book tour. How many books could/would an author sign if he had a scheduled 30 or 60 minutes a day (even every day!) to electronically sign books for whatever store happened to have the receiving end of the equipment? The sheer number of days he'd be signing would vastly outweigh whatever could be crammed into even a lengthy book tour. More opportunities = more books = less rarity = lower value. On the other hand, this would allow people in more far-flung (or simply lower population) areas to have some interaction with a famous author they'd otherwise never "see." An interesting exception might be what would happen in the case of ISS-Earth signed memorabilia, especially the first batch. As for the earlier comparison to having a conversation on the phone vs. in person, the comparison isn't valid. What you should be asking is whether if talking to someone on the phone vs. in person still qualifies as having "met" them. Your conversation may be the same, but there is an entirely different dimension to the experience missing, just as with this long-pen thing. It seems most of the discussion has been implicitly related to the ultimate value of the autograph (or non-autograph), but for many of us who are regular fans (space or otherwise) and collectors of the sort that get these items as mementoes of our own experience meeting these people, the debate is different. I'm not worried about how much my signed litho of the Apollo 12 crew is worth, but like to think of the memory of seeing those three guys interact with each other, joke around, and shake my hand. While I like the stuff I won that was signed (and not inscribed) by astronauts at an earlier time, it's just not the same. I'll still pick it up for its value or to fill in a niche in my collection, but they're more like commodities. Perhaps off topic for the more professional among us, but I'm getting to a larger point... For those of you arguing that the long pen is for all intents and purposes the same as an in-person autograph, I ask you if you would pay the same (or accept the same payment for) one of those versus one done live and in person. I suspect very few of us would, no matter how "autograph" is defined by the true pros. We all know collecting, particular the perceived value, has as much to do with emotion as it does any intrinsic worth (the earlier blob of ink analogy). It's hard for me to see getting as excited by something signed via an electronic link as standing in front of the guy. Does it still have value? of course, but I think these will fall down the hierarchy below the in-person autographs, as others have suggested. Ironically, it will probably even make the in-person autographs that much more valuable, as the ratio of "real" to long-pen versions will be sharply skewed toward the latter, especially if an author/astronaut ceases to tour in favor of long pen tours. To throw another wrinkle in the argument: what effect would a time-delay have on your definition of a long pen signing? If internet traffic is heavy, maybe it'll be a few seconds. is it the same as instantaneous? What if it were one minute of 5 minutes or 30 minutes? Regardless of the time, this new technology is still an electronic reproduction of what the guy is writing, no matter how quick and personalized. |
muirfield
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posted 08-24-2007 12:24 PM
I fall on the side of thinking that it is *not* a genuine signed item. For me, it's black and white, although I do see the other point of view. What I worry about is that these items will gradually enter the secondary market, and will no doubt be sold as "genuine" signed items. While the seller may believe that a longpen signature is genuine, the end result is that I'll have a harder time buying a truly authentic autograph. If nothing else, it shows how important good provenance is. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3622
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 08-24-2007 12:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kr4mula:
For those of you arguing that the long pen is for all intents and purposes the same as an in-person autograph, I ask you if you would pay the same (or accept the same payment for) one of those versus one done live and in person.
I haven't seen anyone argue that it's the same as an in-person autograph. I argue that it's an autograph of sorts, but would never suggest that it's the same as an in-person example. As far as my own personal preference goes, it would be in this order: 1. Autograph in person
2. Autograph via mail (or mail-in signing)
3. Autograph purchased second hand from dealer
4. Autograph via longpen For me, I'd only want an autograph via longpen if that were the only option available. But if I knew the pattern drawn on my item was uniquely created by the signer just for me, I would still treasure it in my collection and call it an autograph. However, I also think that longpen signatures sold on the market should clearly be labeled as such, since buyer's preferences will vary greatly on the collectability of such a signature versus an item that the signer actually touched with their own hands. |
Lunar rock nut
Member Posts: 681
From: Oklahoma city, Oklahoma U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 08-24-2007 12:51 PM
Well said Mark. I have to agree whole heartedly! As suggested earlier a truely unique LongPen signature would be from an audience with an astronaut while in space otherwise maybe a ten or twenty dollar item. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 28757
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-24-2007 01:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kr4mula:
More opportunities = more books = less rarity = lower value.
Correct me if I am wrong, but that's a good thing for the collector, right? quote:
For those of you arguing that the long pen is for all intents and purposes the same as an in-person autograph, I ask you if you would pay the same (or accept the same payment for) one of those versus one done live and in person.
As Mark replied, I would never equate an in-person autograph with one obtained by a LongPen. That said, my ranking would be a bit different than Mark's in that the LongPen would score higher than a through-the-mail or second-hand purchase. Why? Because the LongPen, while not a replacement for the in-person experience, does offer a one-to-one live interaction, not dissimilar to the telephone call analogy offered earlier, which creates a memory associated with the signing that neither a mailed or purchased autograph can offer. quote:
Regardless of the time, this new technology is still an electronic reproduction of what the guy is writing, no matter how quick and personalized.
A reproduction implies a copy, but where does the original exist? quote:
Originally posted by muirfield:
What I worry about is that these items will gradually enter the secondary market, and will no doubt be sold as "genuine" signed items.
I agree that dealers should clearly identify LongPen signatures, especially if they are selling them for the value of the autograph. quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
For me, I'd only want an autograph via longpen if that were the only option available.
I agree. The LongPen is not a replacement for the alternative, an in-person encounter. However, if the choice is between buying a third party's autograph or the LongPen signature from someone who I will likely never meet (e.g. Clarke), I might well choose the latter. The real appeal of the LongPen however, at least to me, is to enable signings that were not previously possible, such as the idea of a live-from-space signing or similarly, a book signing live from Antarctica, from a deep sea lab, or other remote areas. I believe it is similar to the appeal of philatelic event covers, as they too are created at the time and from the spot where history is being made (though not exactly, as the postmark may be applied after the fact and from a nearby post office). |
Scott
Member Posts: 3295
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 08-24-2007 01:53 PM
To me, the Long Pen would be about "half-way" between an autopen and a hand-signed autograph. No where near as desirable as an actual autograph, yet more desirable than an autopen. |
Lunar rock nut
Member Posts: 681
From: Oklahoma city, Oklahoma U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 08-24-2007 03:19 PM
Scott I am in agreement with you also. The debate on this can continue on but it seems to have answered Richards original question if it is an autopen in which general consensus appears to be no. As far as obtaining a LongPen signed glossy or litho from an astronaut aboard the station or shuttle by me seems unlikely since I won't buy or lease a machine. I doubt Barnes and Noble would let me use theirs they will probably restrict theirs to book signings only. It would more than likely require travel to Houston or somewhere else. If the Omniplex here in Oklahoma City were to support a session more than likely it would be dominated by kids. Standing in a virtual or physical line and bumping a child's chance to do so would leave me riddled with guilt. Then there is the third location scenario the Astronaut and Myself on video link up and the machine in another state then waiting for it to show up in the mail leaves little to be desired about the whole ordeal. I won't lose any sleep over it for sure. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 615
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 08-27-2007 11:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Correct me if I am wrong, but that's a good thing for the collector, right?
I guess it's good if you've got a documented in-person autograph. But what happens years down the road when it's no longer certain which is "real" and which is not? Via this forum, we've got a great system for validating signatures, partly by comparison with known authentics, but also by elimination based on characteristics of fakes, autopen, secretarials, etc. If the Long Pen doesn't introduce any clear "signature" characteristics, how will a collector know which was which, without iron-clad documentation, which few of us have? If someone doesn't believe my story about getting it at whatever booksigning, they can always consult the experts (i.e. all of you great folks!) for a measure of certainty. But if the longpen makes near-perfect versions, then what happens? A glut of lookalike longpens will diminish the value of the in-person autographs simply by introducing questions of authenticity on a very big scale. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3622
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 08-27-2007 02:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kr4mula:
A glut of lookalike longpens will diminish the value of the in-person autographs simply by introducing questions of authenticity on a very big scale.
I would really like to see what the longpen results look like, because I have my doubts that the machine can lay down the ink in a human-like fashion. I suspect it will still look sort of autopen-ish, even if a human hand is technically guiding the machine to lay down the ink. |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3095
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 12-11-2007 05:46 PM
This story I thought was interesting re. the LongPen - the author is barred from leaving the country and about to go to jail, and yet can still do a "book signing" on the other side of the world... The newspaper considers the LongPen to be a "replication." | |
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